User talk:Karniffel

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Happy editing! Bermicourt (talk) 13:15, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Matzlfangen

Thank you for your very helpful edits to Matzlfangen. I have tried to make contact with Hackenbuch and the Matzlfangen players to find out further details of play, but without success. Bermicourt (talk) 13:15, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

That's great. It would be good to create a German wiki article on this game and invite Daglinger to comment on it or amend it. I'm not sure my German is quite up to it though...!

Have you considered joining the International Playing Card Society? It's not expensive if you order their quarterly magazine electronically and it gives access to all their back copies as well. There are a number of us who write articles on card games, especially the more unusual ones. I've just completed a series on games native to Schleswig-Holstein, of which 2 have yet to be published. We don't get paid for them by the way, so that's not my motive for flagging it up! I've found it a really useful forum. Bermicourt (talk) 20:19, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I recently had a two-part article published on the German game of Bruus, formerly known as Brusbart, which had not been known about before. I discovered that its history goes back about 300 years, it's descended from Karnöffel, Europe's oldest card game, and that there are still a few village in Schleswig where it's played. In March I visited the area to learn the game and take part in a tournament. It turns out to be really fun game! In between I wrote a short article on a two-hand game I invented that allows you to simulate Strawman Tarock with Tell cards in the same way that the Tapp family simulated Tapp Tarock historically. I've submitted another article on Fipsen as played in Großenaspe and have one in the pipeline on Knüffeln which I also played during my trip to Schleswig. I plan to write a further article on Silesian Karnöffel as played around 1850 as I've recently unearthed a detailed account of the rules which are not known to modern scholarship. And I have ideas for others. However, I've been ably assisted by other members of IPCS including John McLeod who is great at helping me understand game play, and Jonas Richter who is a German archivist and great at tracking down sources. It's always good to have expertise and people 'on the ground' in Germany and Austria. Bermicourt (talk) 06:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

That's amazing! Only yesterday I created 4 new articles on Swedish games: Norseman's Knock, Svängknack, Köpknack and Knack. One of the sets of rules I used came from the Swedish Vira website! I don't speak Swedish, so my translations may leave a little to be desired! You will notice that I have a pack of Modern Swedish pattern cards which I have photographed for authenticity!

BTW feel free to correct or enhance any of them. Bermicourt (talk) 06:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Naming of Swedish games. Yes, that's right. The reason is that the game is called Norseman's Knock in David Parlett's book on worldwide games and so we have a respected and authoritative source for the English name. It's rather a good name because "Norsemen" are thought of as warriors! But the other games are not covered in his book, so I've stayed with the Swedish names to be faithful to my source. This is always a challenge on Wikipedia: consistency v. authenticity. The real world is often not consistent. The name Bayern Munich is a good example: why do we translate Munich but not Bayern? I don't know, but the team is always known as Bayern Munich in English; no-one would ever call it anything else. But I'm just excited at being able to bring this aspect of Swedish culture to light. Bermicourt (talk) 06:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Hahahahaha!!! Love it! Actually it's those dodgy Danes we are nervous about. They come to Britain, burn our villages, steal our womenfolk, demand Danegeld and then have the cheek to settle here and rename our settlements! Okay so it was over a thousand years ago. And as a result most of us probably have Scandinavian blood! Bermicourt (talk) 12:38, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Back to Matzlfangen. There are 2 developments. First, I have created an article in German on de.wiki. It would be good to invite Daglinger to read it through and let us have any comments or amendments. We can then adjust the English article accordingly. If he has a more detailed set of rules anywhere; it would be great to publish them online so they can be cited. If not, at least send us a copy. Second, I asked John McLeod to cast his eye over them. This has resulted in a number of questions from both of us:

1. Es muß Farbe bekannt and drübergestochen werden imply that you have to follow suit and overtake if you can, either with a higher card of the led suit or with a trump. And if an opponent has played a trump, you must overtrump it. Questions that arise:
   1. Do do you still have to head the trick (stechen) if your opponent is already winning it?
   2. If you cannot head the trick, can you throw any card?
   3. If you cannot head the trick, must you play a card of the same suit if you can?
   4. If the led card has been trumped and you cannot overtrump, must you play a lower trump?
2. A Rufen and a Treiben are worth 1 stake (Einsatz). Klar.
   1. Is a Neidspiel worth 1 as well?
   2. If the soloist (Alleinspieler) wins a Treiben, does he receive 1 stake from each of the three defenders?
   3. Can a Durch be won by a team of two players and also by a Soloist?
   4. If a Durch is won by a team, does each of the 2 defenders pay one winner 6 stakes?
   5. If a Durch is won by a soloist, does each of the 3 defenders pay the soloist 6 stakes?
   6. Can a Durch be won 'silent' (still) or must it always be announced to count?
   7. If so, what is the difference in payments?

It would be good to invite Christian Daglinger to clarify these points. His native game is attracting positive international interest! Bermicourt (talk) 12:32, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Verquere

Hi and congratulations for creating the Verquere article - nice one. I notice that losing double is called Jean which is very similar to Jan, the term used in the card game of Bruus (and possibly other games) for the same thing. Of course, Plattdeutsch and Dutch are very similar too. I have seen an attempt to link Jan to the French word used in Trictrac, but there it seems to be used in a different way.  :) Bermicourt (talk) 19:53, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks. I have reviewed one French text on Verquere/Revertier from 1715, German texts from 1702 and 1715, respectively, and a Swedish text from 1701. It is interesting to note that the French text and the German text from 1702 don't have names for Jean, but just say that the player wins a double game. The Swedish text and the German text from 1715 call it Jean, which is written in Roman font. The rest of the texts are in blackletter, so it is a clear indication that Jean is regarded as a foreign word. In later Swedish texts, it is called Jan. I believe that the game is of Dutch origin and that a double win was originally called Jan (or loss, as it is actually the loser who becomes jan). It is unclear to me why they use the French form of the name in the texts from the early 18th century.

The term jan is also used in many Swedish card games to indicate a loss at a higher level, although most Swedish people today probably don't know what the game term jan means. It is definitely used differently in trictrac, but I don't know how and why the term was first picked up in that game.Feynman~svwiki (talk) 20:30, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, jan appears in Swedish Bräus and Danish Brus and, as jana, in Icelandic Brús. It goes back at least to around 1800 and a song about Brusbart from Hamburg. There is also a verb (in Plattdeutsch), jannen, gejannt. One source equates it to Schneider. I suppose it's the equivalent of being lurched. Bermicourt (talk) 13:03, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Following your last edit at Verquere, you changed "that man" to "it" in two places. However, that produces a potential confusion to anyone not familiar with tables games over whether "it" refers to the blot or the man that has landed on it. Actually so does "that man"! I wonder if it would be clearer if "it" was changed to "the latter", "the opponent's man" or "the blot" i.e. the first sentence could read "If a man lands or makes a touchdown on a point where the opponent has a blot, the blot is hit." Bermicourt (talk) 13:08, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Point taken. I have changed "it" to "that blot" and "the blot", respectively. Does it sound OK in English now?Feynman~svwiki (talk) 13:37, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's clear. Incidentally have you come across Willard Fiske's 1905 book on board and table games, misleadingly titled Chess in Iceland and in Icelandic Literature: with Historical Notes on Other Table-Games? It's really a collection of notes on board games, including Verquere, which is still quite interesting despite the date. But it's not logically laid out, so I find I use the search facility a lot. I don't know if it adds anything useful on Verquere. Bermicourt (talk) 13:53, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I have a copy of Fiske's book at home, and I have read all pages that are related to Verquere and its relatives in different countries. Fascinating book, in spite of the disorganised presentation. (If I recall correctly, it was compiled posthumously.) Feynman~svwiki (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Bräus

Hi Sten, I don't know if you've come across this Swedish member of the Brusbart family. I created the article in 2018, but it is mostly based on Anthony Smith's 1993 article in The Playing Card. I don't know if it's even played any more or whether there are any variations to the rules described. What I can say is that I've played the German equivalent which is very similar except that they've added the rules on 'daring and striking' and on double and triple tricks which add to the interest. I suspect the Swedish version here is older. The game is easy to learn provided you have the card ranking in front of you and is relaxing and a lot of fun. Bermicourt (talk) 20:11, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I think it is still played. A friend of mine visited Gotland some ten or twenty years ago and participated in a tournament. As far as I recall, he said there were many players and everybody was in high spirits. I tried it out with my friends during a visit to Gotland 22 years ago, but we only played a few deals. I don't know if there are any variations. Dan Glimne mentions Bräus in his books on card games, but I think that his description is also based on the article in Kartofilen.

I have made some searches on the internet. There are "world championships" played at Gotland. The most recent information I could find is from 2018. https://helagotland.se/familj/foreningsbrev/vm-i-braus-15104731.aspx

Feynman~svwiki (talk) 05:31, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Kille (card game)

Hi Sten, could you take a look at the last couple of edits here. One is asking for a translation and the other may be altering the clarity of the article, but you would know better than I. I must find some folks to play this with sometime - I have the cards. I'd also like to track down a copy of the ones with green, not brown, pictures, but I don't think they're made any more. Bermicourt (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Paul! I have reviewed the page and made some minor corrections and additions. Please check the language and that you understand my comments. I am uncertain what to say about the proposed translation. It is always difficult to translate poetry, and these poems contain words that are not easy to translate to English. I think native English speakers must decide if Swedish poems in an English text are meaningful. I could have a go at the translation, but I doubt that it will make the original poems justice.

Yes, you should really give the game a try. One-card Kille is really fun when many players participate. Feynman~svwiki (talk) 06:57, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Skitgubbe

Hi Sten, I've greatly expanded the English article based on the one at Swedish Wikipedia. Would you mind doing a sanity check on it please? Thanks. Bermicourt (talk) 17:48, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Paul. Good to hear from you! I have reviewed the page and made some changes. You may review the changes and check for linguistic errors. Feynman~svwiki (talk) 08:31, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Looking good! Bermicourt (talk) 12:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)