User talk:Jethro B/sandbox

Death

I removed a few paragraphs that were about his illness, how it progressed, and reports after his death. The main thing we want on Arafat's article for his death section is how he died, and then brief summary of the various other theories. So I just took the paragraph about how he died and put it in. I removed the part about Tamimi, since also I feel that isn't important here. I did include that the Palestinians mourned for him, as it does give readers a better understanding of how he was perceived or what his death meant and I've seen similar stuff on many pages about people's deaths, so felt it would be relevant here as well.

Any issues with this? --Activism1234 02:05, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fully edited article

Hey guys,

I went through the article and edited it out. I did not publish it yet on the real article, since I want your input beforehand. A few things to note...

I kept all the references that said Arafat was killed by X, but deleted those that said he was not killed by X. In my view, the main article should only list possible theories about his death, and not go into the whole dispute over them, as that would basically mean it would stay in its current form.
I combined all the theories into one paragraph. I didn't go into any information regarding each theory, but simply listed the theory and included all references in the article that supported the theory. The information, in my opinion, should be only on the Death of Arafat article.
I kept the short paragraph about Yossi Melman, since he's a distinguished and trusted journalist and what he says is a good replacement for each argument against a specific cause and a general overview.
At the end of my edits, I included the original article to be compared with.

Please let me know what you think about this. --Activism1234 02:16, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for working on this. I have a number of concerns and comments regarding the proposed replacement section though. I will list them tomorrow when I have more time. Apologies for not helping out sooner. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, and don't apologize it's not an issue! Just to let you know, I made another edit that you should check out before you comment. I changed the words "the underlying condition is unknown" to what was recently released a few days ago about a blood condition. I also removed the paragraph about the NYT article, since the reference to there didn't mention it and I also feel it'd be more appropriate for the Death of Arafat page. --Activism1234 05:09, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

Although one of the purposes of creating a new page was to reduce the amount of info in the main article, the section is actually too small. It could be beefed up a bit (I'll work on that promptly).
We should include one passage (~3-4 sentences) about the onset of his illness before we mention his death to allow for a smooth transition (article flow).
I think its best for us to include two passages (~3-4 sentences each) on the main theories before the polonium finds. Those two theories being AIDS and poisoning. We should briefly clarify how each of those charges was brought about and how they were refuted. We especially need to do this if we're keeping Melman's opinion on the matter since that gives the rejection of polonium undue weight. When (and if) the Arab League has its emergency summit, we should also mention that since it's particularly notable that the organization is holding a summit dedicated to Arafat's possible poisoning.
All in all, the new section should be about five fleshed out passages (main section: 1 passage about onset, 1 passage about death; subsection: 1 independent sentence about theories, 1 passage about AIDS, 1 passage about poisoning, 1 passage about polonium) --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:17, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed section

Check out "Proposed section2" and give me your thoughts. I kept it at four passages instead of five, added a bit about the onset of his illness, added a bit more info and references about the immediate aftermath of his death, made a passage combining the earlier theories of AIDS and poisoning and the refutations of both those claims, and a single passage about the recent polonium finds. I removed Barry Rubin's belief about "natural causes" since its a vague concept, not attributed to Rubin and anyway Rubin is just giving his own opinion (he's not a doctor nor did he consult one nor did he study Arafat's records.) I did add cirrhosis as one of the initial theories, but like the platelet disorder I did not go into details about it. I kept but reduced Melman's take on it, since it doesn't make sense to dedicate a passage about his assertions. I relocated his statements to the poisoning passage since he is not discussing polonium directly. Lastly and this just for the record, if we generally (or absolutely) agree on a draft to replace the current info in the main article, it's not written into stone. Editors could make changes as long as they are neutral and supported by higher quality sources. We're just trying to draft an initial template. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. Check out the few edits I made. I basically moved Melman to the bottom of the page, in line with chronological order and he wasn't referring to poisoning specifically (he wrote the piece after polonium). Other than that I think I just moved commas to after the references... Also, the claim that there were tire burnings etc aren't found in the references I believe, so try to find a reference that supports it and then put it in. --Activism1234 20:34, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How about merging the Melman bit with the polonium passage then? I found the ref supporting the immediate Palestinian reaction that you mentioned above [1]. And this is minor, but per WP:MoS citation/footnotes are placed after commas and periods. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:00, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, it's great you found the ref. Pretty sure you put it in the sandbox already, but if you didn't just go ahead and do that. And thank so much about the commas and references bit... That's really useful whenever I'm adding a reference, so really thanks for pointing that out! As for the Melman bit, I originally thought he was discounting all possible theories, then realized only discounting that Israel killed Arafat by poisoning, so I guess you can go ahead and merge them. --Activism1234 21:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No problem ;) As for Melman, just to be clear, should we merge it with the polonium passage or the poisoning passage? --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:29, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to polonium. I don't think there is a passage on poisoning, no? Just AIDS and polonium. --Activism1234 21:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The passage discussing AIDS also touches on the initial theories of poisoning. I decided to have just one passage discussing those two theories and their refutations instead of two. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:37, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so if we're not going to put it all the way at the bottom I'd include it in the passage about polonium, but refer to him as refuting all theories of poisoning, not just polonium (for this reason I felt it'd be better to put at the bottom or something). --Activism1234 22:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. Honestly, I'm not attached to its inclusion since we already have statements by Israeli officials denying any role in any sort of poisoning. We'll just merge it with the polonium section for now though. If that's everything, we ought to move ahead and replace the old section in the main article with the new draft. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:49, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. We can always change it later. --Activism1234 00:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I updated the main article on Arafat with the information here. It should be good. Now let's work on his death article! I recently added info about his new medical records, and we'll constantly update it as more info comes in. Do I see a featured article in the works? I think so...--Activism1234 00:13, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]