User talk:Jerome Kohl/Archive16

Trombetto

I wonder if you'd have time to look at this terrible article Trombetto and work your musical wikimagic on it? Tayste (edits) 00:45, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh. My. God. The problem with that article is the question of notability. If every "one of a kind" musical instrument had its own article on Wikipedia, there would be no room left for articles on major motion pictures or rock legends (what used to be called "movies" and "singers"). Now, I expect that at one time every instrument must have been "one of a kind", until it caught on and became "mainstream". Assuming that such things are all worthy of inclusion, perhaps we should have articles on all sorts of failed historical instruments, from the pig-o-phone to the marching slide kazoo. Or perhaps not. I will try to be fair and take that article seriously, but it ain't gonna be easy.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. To be honest, perhaps it should be nominated for deletion? Tayste (edits)

To be honest, my feelings are exactly the same. There are of course several ways in which notability could be established. The most important one is to demonstrate that anybody except the creator of the oddity has shown any interest in it at all. This has already been questioned, of course, and I seriously doubt that a satisfactory answer will ensue. A nomination for deletion might help speed the parting guest.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:44, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I've just read it. Aargh. It's just not the kind of thing we need an article for. DBaK (talk) 18:17, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Trombetto started. Just plain Bill (talk) 18:47, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

German Horn

Dear Mr. Kohl,

Your page on the so called "German horn" has caused much consternation among horn players around the world.

Before we act to have this questionable page removed I would like to ask you which sources you are using to support your designation of the instrument most professionals call the horn and others call the French horn as the "German horn". It appears to many that this is a product of your own imagination devoid of any serious scholarly support or common usage that might justify such an entry on Wikipedia.

Looking forward to your answer,

Edward Deskur — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stowarzyszenie Rodziny Deskurów (talk • contribs) 16:58, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I always think it's a good idea to introduce oneself politely and make one's point in a reasonable manner rather than go straight for pomposity and near-threats. Your mileage obviously varies. Ah well. DBaK (talk) 17:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. When Mr Deskur/Deskurów recovers his composure, he may care to look in the article itself, where he and the two or three other horn players from around the world who are so discombobulated will discover the sources he is asking about. In fact, the article cites eighteen sources, not all of which (admittedly) directly address the question of the name, which I must suppose is the point of Mr Deskur's consternation. These sources are placed as inline citations using short-footnote format, each linked to the alphabetical list of references near the end of the article (in case there is any difficulty locating them). If he really believes that the rotary-valve, large-bore double horn is not the predominant type of horn in use around the world, then of course he is free to edit the article and add his own reliable sources to contest the views of Jeremy Montagu, Anthony Baines, Walter Piston, Norman Del Mar, and other authorities cited in the article. Generally speaking, I find that reliable sources are preferred to pomposity and near-threats on Wikipedia, and I believe that the German-horn article is actually better referenced than its sister articles on the Vienna horn, the Natural horn, and the French horn.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You might enjoy this (re: The Bill theme)

Hi Jerome - thought you might enjoy watching this :) Grutness...wha? 08:05, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Fantastic. Thanks for that (even if Bill Bailey did fail to upgrade the Coronation Street theme to an odd metre).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

BTW, another example of septuple time used for the theme song of a police show was the version used for the pilot episode of Softly, Softly: Task Force. Perhaps Bill Bailey's explanation for the change in The Bill theme applies here as well, and the reason the tune was changed to a square 4/4 after that pilot episode is that the rhythm was thought too subversive for the forces of law and order. On the other hand, I don't know what the theme for the original Softly, Softly was like, since I have never seen any episodes of it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:32, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I only remember it from its later series when it was 4/4. Perhaps the use of odd time signatures is a deliberate attempt to make them feel 'edgier', in the same was as the 5/4 of the original "Mission Impossible" theme. Grutness...wha? 01:47, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. So-called "odd meters" were very common in the 1960s and 70s (and very trendy in jazz generally at that time), and the whole idea was, as you say, to be "edgy". Other examples of TV themes that occur to me "off the top of my head" include the theme for the first series of The Plane Makers and the Shoestring theme (the latter with phrases in a slower 11/4). Casualty is a slightly later example, though the "edgy" rythms there are superimposed on a very ordinary 4/4 accompaniment, not to mention the fact that it is not a police or detective series.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:41, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Song and album title formatting

I'm copyediting Carola Häggkvist. I read at WP:Manual of Style/Titles that album titles should be in italics but song titles should be in quotation marks. There are a lot of both types in this article, so I was going along changing italics at song titles to quotation marks. However, a lot of the titles are in Swedish. I knew that foreign language words are usually in italics, but I haven't often seen the combination of italics and quotation marks, so I looked again at WP:Manual of Style/Titles and found a section WP:Manual of Style/Titles#Translations. It shows only a few examples. Can you tell me how to format song titles in Swedish: italics only, quotation marks only, or italics and quotation marks?

I also see in that section of the MOS that the English translation of a foreign language title that appears in parentheses after the title should be neither in italics nor in quotation marks. Since whoever wrote this article put all of those title translations in quotation marks, I guess I need to go back to the beginning and remove all those quotation marks (from the translations). CorinneSD (talk) 18:15, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Don't make any edits to the article right now or I'll lose all the work I've been doing. I'm trying to wait until I receive your reply before I save my edits. CorinneSD (talk) 18:17, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Another question: several times in the article I have seen sentences like this:

• The album was reported to have sold in 90,000 copies.

I thought the word "in" sounded odd, so I've been removing it so that the sentence reads:

• The album was reported to have sold 90,000 copies.

Then I thought, well, the album doesn't actually sell anything (transitive verb). So now I don't know what's correct. I suppose passive voice could be used:

• 90,000 copies of the album have been sold.

What do you recommend? CorinneSD (talk) 18:29, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, I will not touch that article with a ten-foot Pole (or even an eleven-foot Swede ;-). First off, italics for foreign terms are only used to set them off as foreign terms when they are embedded in English prose. (Also, this is only done for words that have not become naturalized in English, but that is not important here.) Consequently, the formatting rules are the same whether the album or song titles are in Swedish, English, or any other language. Parenthesized translation following a foreign title should not be either italicized not enclosed in quotation marks, as you have read in the Manual of Style. People do get confused about this, so you will see this rule violated frequently. I agree that "in 90,000 copies" is simply incorrect (probably an artifact of translation, or an editor with imperfect command of English), though it is common to say "reported to have sold 90,000 copies", even if the passive voice sounds a bit better. Hope this helps.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! I have my work cut out for me now. CorinneSD (talk) 23:16, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Lesiba

I did some work on lesiba. It would be great, if you like, if you could take a look at the article. Hyacinth (talk) 08:58, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

"Some" work? I'd say quite a lot of work, to judge from the edit history! It is a fascinating article, on an instrument I had never heard of before. Consequently, I am not in any position to offer improvements to the article's substance. I tweaked a couple of minor punctuation problems, and found a somewhat stilted use of the pronoun "one" (apparently to avoid the usual he/she pronoun problem). I hope you find these to be improvement, however small. It looks quite good, I think.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:24, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Meetup to revitalize & prioritize WikiProject Seattle

In the Seattle area? Edit Wikipedia or Wikimedia sister projects? You are invited to help. Come to our first Meetup to revitalize & prioritize WikiProject Seattle on July 27, 2015, 6pm to 9pm, at Café Allegro

Yours, Peaceray

To unsubscribe from future messages from Wikipedia:Meetup/Seattle, please remove your name from this list. -MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:35, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

?

What do you think of this edit?--Hafspajen (talk) 15:28, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The apparent vandalism, or the response to it? If the former, it is certainly very clumsy; if the latter, then the question is well taken, but repair should have been made at the same time. If the first edit was really sincerely made, the "unsourced" complaint must refer to the claim that he was named "Francesco" in honour of France. This sounds like an awfully silly claim to me but, if there is a reliable source for it, then it must be true verifiable.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. I removed the clain in honor of France. My books tall me he was called Francesco, because he was delighted by French things. French people - he was simply a francofil. Not the father, the son; Francesco was a francofil. Hafspajen (talk) 19:33, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

You may run into trouble with that edit, though not from me. There were (as I recall) two sources, including the Catholic Encyclopedia, with somewhat different explanations of the French connection. Neither of them, I think, claimed it was because St Francis himself was a francophile.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:00, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Your edit on "Quintuple meter"

Hi. This is regarding this edit of yours [1]. I just created *value*. And you could have *added value* by finding proper sources for what I added. Or you could just have listened to the track and realized that what I added was true. Instead, you've done the work an amoeba with a policing itch could have done, and have *destroyed value*. I hope, at the end of the day, when you're considering "have I done good today" that you've not left humanity better than it was before. Bonomont (talk) 17:47, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You clearly are unaware of at least three things. (1) It is the responsibility of the editor who adds content to support it with a reliable source, not to just add stuff in the hopes that someone else will or can find such sources. (2) There is a long history on the quintuple and septuple meter articles, going back to before the time they were split off from the List of musical works in unusual time signatures involving attempts to add literally hundreds of songs without properly sourcing them. There is in fact a backlog of about 500 titles waiting for sources, which you can find at Talk:List of musical works in unusual time signatures/Unsourced. (3) Although I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself what meter a song is in, I am not a reliable source by Wikipedia's definition. Furthermore, other musicians may sincerely disagree about metric interpretations of songs (for example, there is an opinion that "Overkill" is in 7/4 time, but I hear it as an alternation of 6/8 and 4/4). There is a very, very long discussion of this problem in the archives of Talk:List of musical works in unusual time signatures, which ended with consensus that no unsourced claims be allowed to accumulate on that list (and, by extension, to the lists appended to the two articles spun on from it). So, the bottom line is, yes, I felt "I have done well yesterday" when I removed what, after all, is just a possible drop in the ocean of quintuple meter songs. Your characterisation of your addition as "value" is at least debatable. We do not need either doubtful or trivial material on Wikipedia. If it were up to me, I would remove that entire appended list, since quintuple and septuple meters have both become commonplace since about 1920 (and commonplace even in popular music since about 1960). However, there are those who delight in compiling such lists, and they are numerous enough to have their way. Perhaps soon we will also have lists of all songs in 3/4 and 4/4 time.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, if you've got a list of 500 titles that want to be in these articles, then I obviously don't insist that you add mine. As a general feedback, the examples that I see currently listed are not well known, with the measuring stick being have they entered major top 10 charts (with the exemption of "Theme from Mission: Impossible" and "All you need is love"). So you might want to add a few more songs that people can actually relate to. I currently see a lot of pieces that are experiments that a musician did, and that ended up on an album, but apart from die-hard fans, nobody probably knows them. And the only reason why they are listed here is because somebody took the time to find some sources. Well I think that's a bad criteria for inclusion. You should find examples that people know, ideally across several styles, and then go out and find sources. If you are just playing the robotic hangman that mindlessly kills anything without a proper source, then the quality of the examples will stay at the current low quality level. Bonomont (talk) 13:17, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

To start with, I didn't create the list of "certified" examples in that article; it accumulated over the years, with contributions from many editors who, like yourself, found an example they thought worthy and added it. The ones with valid references stayed, the others went into that holding pen on the Talk page for the "List of musical works in unusual time signatures". I have not evaluated that list, nor am I qualified to do so; none of the song titles in it mean anyhting to me at all, and that is true also for "Innuendo". I have (only just) heard of the band Queen, but have not to my knowledge ever heard a note they played. No doubt there are plenty of die-hard glam rock fans out there who have quite a different point of view. The Mission: Impossible theme is another matter entirely, but I think Lalo Shifrin made a mistake when he finally wrote it down for publication: it is obviously in 10/8 (3 + 3 + 2 + 2), as a bunch of us music students unanimously agreed back in the 1960s when we first heard it, and only fits 5/4 with some awkward syncopations. Whatever. It seems to me that any song familiar enough to make a good illustration belongs in the main text of the article (along with the Mission: Impossible theme, Take Five, Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony, Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead, and Ravel's Daphnis et Chloé), and not in the "list of other songs", which I regard as a limbo section amounting to "songs you never even knew existed and probably will never hear"—in other words, pretty much what you describe. Of course, it is all the more important to have a reliable source to reassure the innocent reader that he is not being made the victim of some prank, or being misled by some eager music fan who simply cannot count.

While I have got your attention, I revisited that edit I made, and see that the reason I gave for reverting it was not that it lacked a citation, but that you had placed a false refeence on it, which was obviously copied from a source verifying a completely different song. An attempted subterfuge like this is not a good way to impress other editors with your good intentions, and I suggest that in future you refrain from such devious ploys.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Well first of all, let me rebut your attack on my character. I didn't add these references to to trick anybody, I just wanted the edit to have the same format as the edits next to it; I wanted the edit to fit in. You shouldn't be that mistrusting to people. Ever heard of "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"? Exactly this applies here. You know what? You come accross like a slightly loose cannon with a nervous trigger finger. Such character traits are equally not a good way to impress other editors with your good behaviour, and I suggest that in the future, you refrain from such lapses.

And by the way, if you can't take this critique on your character, maybe you shouldn't denounce others.

Now, on to the actual issue at hand. I agree that the best examples should be in the main section. Just don't forget that some people skim an article, and a list is something that draws the eye more than a lot of text, so for many people, that list will actually be more prominent than the text. Of your examples, I'm familiar with Take Five, but none of the classical music examples. I feel like I'm a regular guy with a regular taste, and just as a feedback, currently there are very few examples that I actually recognize. You or some other editor might want to work on that. And being on a record chart is actually a good way to estimate whether a piece of music is actually well known. Plus it's very data-driven thing, there are sources for it with numbers - you should like it! Bonomont (talk) 19:32, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough, I accept your revised characterization of yourself. I presume you are new to Wikipedia, and there is a principle sometime difficult to remember: "Don't bite the newcomers". I apologise for having lapsed on this point. That said, you must realize that your tactic of "borrowing" a reference "for the sake of form"has the result of making it appear that you have in fact supported your claim with a reliable source (since you did not label it with an explaination that it was there only to show how the format should work). It is very easy on Wikipedia to be misunderstood, and important therefore that you consider your edits very carefully. It did look to me as if your intention was to trick people into believing you had a source for your claim.

FWIW, I, too, feel like I'm a regular guy with regular taste (I imagine that most people feel that way), and as I said, I didn't recognize your example, any more than you recognize Tchaikovsky's famous 5/4 waltz. Being on a record chart may be a good way of recognizing whether a piece of music is well-known, but only over a brief span of time. This is one feature of "classical" music: it lasts, be definition. Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, and Ravel are just as well-known today as they were when their quintuple-time pieces were first written—probably even better known. Glam rock, by contrast, has already faded into obscurity, at least for those under the age of 30. Our Wikipedia articles of course must change with time, but it is also well to keep an eye on things that may not have to be rewritten every few years because of changing fashions.

What you say about lists catching casual readers' eyes may be true, but of course this can also be turned into an argument against them: they are what is called an "attractive nuisance", and so they will divert many readers from the substance of the article. Examples should be selected with a view to reaching as many different people as possible (I don't think we have any disagreement there). From this point of view, tightly stuffing a familiar example in amongst many unfamiliar ones only serves to diminish its usefulness (once again, I don't think we have any argument about this). One reason for organizing an article in the way that Quintuple meter has been, is so that the reader can scan through the various headings to find areas with which he is familiar, or the opposite—depending on the level of familiarity and interest in the subject. This is where miscellaneous lists really fall down flat, and is the reason I worked very hard to pull as many examples out into the prose text, wherethey can be given a context and explained in a way that makes them useful. The result has been that the "also ran" list now consists almost exclusively of popular songs, and this is mainly because people keep coming along with their favorite tunes—people from many different ages and backgrounds, and with different tastes—and popular music is usually what they are most familiar with, even if they are not familiar with other peoples' popular music. The other side of the coin (as I think the article already makes clear) is that so-called "classical" music has been using quintuple, septuple, and other "odd" meters so routinely for so long now, that it is scarcely worth mentioning any longer, whereas they only became fashionable in popular music stating in the early 1960s, and even there they have never become as familiar as 4/4 or even 3/4 time. The problem of citations, however, becomes more critical with popular-music examples for two reasons. First, in contrast to "classical" music, little of it is available in written-down form. Second, a comparatively small percentage of listeners are sufficiently skilled in music to be able to tell what meter a song is in, and so will be all too ready to believe Jeeves (Stephen Fry) when he tells Bertie Wooster (Hugh Laurie) that "Puttin' On the Ritz" is in a "syncopated 5/4 time, with the accents on 'If', 'blue', 'you', 'know', 'to', 'to', 'don't' and 'go'". It works for Bertie, of course,but when you crunch the data,it doesn't really add up, does it?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

All fair points. I think pop music is much much more popular than classical music, though, and the record sales numbers support my theory. I think I'll have to detach myself from the discussion now, because i don't have enough time. So I guess this is another example where wikipedia is written by those with lots of time. Good luck with all your future edits! Bonomont (talk) 10:55, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, well, I think there may be a reason for the name "popular music", just as there is a reason for the name "classical music". Your point is also well-taken, and the dynamic nature of Wikipedia is of course well-suited to constant reworkings of the text to adapt to fluctuating expectations of the readership, but another perplexing issue has to do with demographics. I was just speaking with a friend of my own age the other day about this "song familiarity" issue, and she said she could remember thousands of popular songs from the 1950s and 1960s but practically nothing from after then. Surprise, surprise, guess her age. A person twenty years younger will know all the popular songs from the 1970s and 1980s, and a person twenty years younger still will go blank on everything before 1990 and after 2010. All of these people, though, are potential Wikipedia readers, so it would be nice to be able not only to include something they are likely to be familiar with, but also to put those examples into their historical context (e.g., "Take Five" had a huge impact on the popular-music business in the 1960s, but was it still so important an impetus in the 1980s?). This cannot be done with the trivia-list format, but it requires quite a lot of time and effort to incorporate into a prose context, especially when every claim must be supported with a reliable source.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:50, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I think that's a good approach. Have a nice one! Bonomont (talk) 17:14, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I take it this website is not a reliable source? Too bad then. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:29, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Why do you think it is not a reliable source?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:35, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Added it. Good job, Florian Blaschke! :-) Bonomont (talk) 09:39, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Pleyel et Cie

Is Pleyel et Cie still in business? See [2]. I read the article, and though it says the company ceased production of pianos in France in 2013, it does not say the company ceased production altogether. Corinne (talk) 02:31, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

You are very quick on the draw! I just this very moment saw that edit changing "is" to "was", and wondered the same thing. The Pleyel website clearly indicates that the showroom is open, though of course that does not mean they are still manufacturing. On the other hand, the cited source merely says they announced they would cease manufacture in 2013; it does not confirm that they actually did close up shop. I am still searching for sources that either confirm cessation of manufacture, or that they changed their mind.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:37, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Also, besides just saying they announced they were ceasing manufacture in 2013, it says in France. They could continue to manufacture in another country. Corinne (talk) 02:45, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The New York Times article given in the "External links" sections seems fairly conclusive. They are still in business, but only to sell off their remaining stock, not to manufacture new instruments.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

O.K. That's too bad. Do you think electronic keyboards have put a dent into piano sales? Corinne (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

That is quite probable, but there have been other dents as well. The piano is no longer as popular an instrument as it was a century ago. Recordings are one factor (compare how many people you see going about the streets with headphones now, to how many there were fifty years ago ;-), the increasing popularity of the guitar is another. The New York Times article mentions economic pressures caused by competition from Asian makers being able to make pianos at much lower cost, and that is probably the biggest dent of all.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:04, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Jacques Gershkovitch

In response to a request for a copyedit at WP:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests, I have been reading and copyediting the article on Jacques Gershkovitch. I have come across a sentence that I have to ask you about. It's in the first paragraph of the section Jacques Gershkovitch#Relocation to Portland, Oregon. Here is the sentence:

• Following three months of touring, Gershkovitch settled in Tokyo to undertake the newly organized Tokyo Symphony Orchestra under the patronage of Baron Okura, a wealthy nobleman and relative of the Mikado.

I thought perhaps a word was needed after "to undertake". Does one "undertake an orchestra"? I thought perhaps:

• to undertake the conductorship of the Toyko Symphony Orchestra

• to undertake the leadership of the Tokyo Symphony Orchestra

I'll defer to whatever you suggest. Corinne (talk) 02:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Certainly a word is missing there. The choice of "conductorship" of "leadership" or something else depends on the precise nature of the job he accepted: conductor would be described by "conductorship", music director would probably mean "leadership", though that could also refer to an administrative position or (in British English), the first-violin position (what is called outside of the UK the "concertmaster").—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:34, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Can I hope that you might find some information in the sources as to what position he accepted? Corinne (talk) 02:39, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Those two sources are both comparatively obscure. I do not expect to find online access to either of them, though my local university library may hold copies. I shall see what I can do.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:06, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Template:Nursery rhymes

If you would like and have time, would you please take a look at Template:Nursery rhymes and tell me what you think, or comment at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 July 25#Template:Nursery rhymes. While music related, this is not music theory related. Hyacinth (talk) 23:24, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Although my interests in music are not restricted to theory (!), I really have no opinion on this particular template. Thanks for valuing my opinion sufficently to call my attention to it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:52, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Circular rounds

Would you know how to solve File:Stuber-Musique.jpg? It appears to be a round, notated in a circle, for four parts (viols), with each part entering three bars later (3,6,9). Only a few measures use "correct" notation, the rest having notes with the dot on the wrong side or with the stem on the wrong side. Hyacinth (talk) 04:30, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Very interesting! I don't think having dots or stems on "the wrong side" is necessarily decisive, but the main problem is to decide which way is "up". Perhaps two of the parts are inverted with respect to the others. As for the instruments, "viol." is almost certainly an abbreviation for "violon" (i.e., the French for violin). This fits better with the treble-clef notation, since by the late-18th century even the bass viol was exceedingly rare, and the treble viol was long gone. I shall have to ponder this awhile.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:58, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Which way is "up" (the inside or outside) is the same as deciding whether the notation proceeds clockwise or counterclockwise.

Take the bottom two measures directly around the spade and arrow bar line.

1. If the measure to the left is taken as running clockwise, then the notation is incorrect, the dot on a quarter note being on the wrong side and the flag on the eighth note's stem being on the wrong side. An atypical rhythm, -., is also created in the first half note. So presumably it runs counterclockwise.
2. If the measure to the right of the arrow barline runs clockwise than the atypical rhythm is created. If it proceeds counterclockwise then the eighth note flags are on the wrong side.

Hyacinth (talk) 08:11, 28 August 2015 (UTC)-08:28, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Similar: File:John bull sphera mundi.gif. Hyacinth (talk) 08:32, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

The Bull example looks a little more straightforward, because the clefs are placed on the staves, therefore indicating both the direction (clockwise) and which way is "up". The apparent offbeat parallel octaves at the beginning are puzzling, and there are several misleading "solutions" that lead to parallel dissonances and so must be red herrings. The Stuber is actually more interesting, for exactly the reasons you mention. By placing his clef, meter, and key signature on a separate bit of staff in the centre, he enables a number of different readings. Is it possible that it is actually to be read in four different ways, including right-to-left (that is, backwards) order of the notes?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:59, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Like all canons of this type, this one originates from a contrapuntal draft (Entwurf, as Albrechtsberger describes it in his Gründliche Anweisung zur Komposition). The phrase given counts twelve bars, and each of the four violins enters after three bars. That is to say that they will play all together in bars 10-12. Reading the notation counterclockwise gives the result hereby for these three bars, where arrows indicate where to follow after the repeat bar. The trick, starting from this, is to write each part in turn, in one line, instead of the four parts on top of each other. One may try reading the score hereby from right to left, which would correspond to reading the circular notation clockwise: the result is less satisfying because the leading notes (F#) do not resolve normally. I did not try reading upside down but I think that it would be even less satisfying. One easily recognizes that the three bars correspond to three chords, V–I–II in G major. The canon could be repeated without end, but one will note that at the turn of bars 1-2 of the notation hereby, the second violin is lowest and plays D–G, which makes a nice full cadence in root position, and the highest violin (violin 3, hereby) plays B–A–G, a nice ^3–^2–^1 line: this would be a convenient place where to stop. Needless to say, which of the violins will play these treble and bass lines at the time of stopping depends on how many repeats have been played. (I was too fast: the figure 2 in the center of Stuber's circle probably indicates that the time signature should be instead of . I am too lazy to correct that.) — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course. It is all very simple, isn't it? Thank you, Hucbald, although you have spoiled the fun in working it out for myself! Just one thing: shouldn't the time signature be exactly the one Stuber wrote (2), rather than translating it into an Italianate equivalent? ;-)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, Jerome, to have spoiled your fun. There remain a few questions for you, however: could you say in a few words – so far as possible without actually writing out possible solutions, but merely by an abstract consideration of the problem – why neither (a) reading from the inside of the circle, nor (b) mixing voice(s) read from outside with other(s) read from inside will provide a satisfactory solution? And what about reading clockwise? And once you'll have done all that, you may want to consider this other circular canon, by Haydn, [[3]], often discussed and which offers several solutions. (There was a talk on this by L. Beduschi in EuroMAC 2014, see [[4]].)

As to the time signature, yes, you probably are right. Problem is that Finale (that I know) does not propose it. In any case, my purpose wasn't to produce a fully scholarly result. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 17:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Ancient music

I just saw Ancient music on a list of articles needing improvement at Wikipedia:Articles for improvement. I thought you would be the best person to improve this article, if you feel like it. Corinne (talk) 02:47, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

P.S. I plan to read this article at some point; I'm just a bit too tired now, but my eye happened to fall on three types of music in ancient Rome, at the end of the article. I was surprised that "mundana" is translated as "universe" instead of "world" or "everyday" (closer to "mundane"). I thought "mundana" meant "world". Is "world" the same as "universe"? Corinne (talk) 02:50, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I have that article on my watchlist, and have made many half-hearted attempts to improve it over the years. "Musica mundana" was one of them and, indeed, the Latin word "mundus" means "world", but its usual sense is "all of creation". As a result, "universe" in the modern sense is a more accurate rendering than "world", which tends to be understood as meaning "the planet earth" ("terra" is the more precise word in Latin). The word "universum" does of course exist in Latin, but is usually understood as meaning "everything", "all", or—wait for it—"world". In the culture of antiquity, today's separate concepts of the planet on which we live and "the larger part of creation" did not exist. It does require some context to know which sense of "mundus" is intended, but Boethius and his later commentators lay it out fairly clearly. The source cited in the Wikipedia article isn't ideal, and at the moment isn't responding, so it may be a victim of linkrot. It would be easy enough to find some better citations, and that seems like a modest enough goal for me to tackle for now. Thanks for the suggestion.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the interesting information. I was trying to click on the "Thank" button when my screen jumped and it went to "rollback", so I immediately undid that edit. Sorry about that. Corinne (talk) 12:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I had wondered what your motivation might have been! Well, that has happened to me, too, on more than one occasion, so I can easily imagine your consternation! Wikipedia moves in a mysterious way, our blunders to perform (for us)!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:24, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Vittorio Giannini

I was not "persistently reverting" your edits, sir. On the contrary, you were the one "persistently reverting" mine. Perhaps you should ask yourself why it is more important to you to keep your citation style than it is for someone to improve the content of the article after it has been languishing for five years. I was merely starting to add some data to the article. I couldn't even get to first base before you immediately commenced to revert my changes. Good day. NicholasNotabene (talk) 01:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

If you will check the edit history, I think you will discover that I was in the process of adding a series of inline citations in support of several of the points marked as needing them. Each time I did so, you would jump in to change the citation formats, in the mistaken belief that you were "adding inline citations". In fact, it was I who was adding them, and you who were merely changing the citation style. If you think you have some citations to add, please feel free to add them. I will be happy to fix the formats later, though it is much more difficult that way than keeping them right in the first place.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Concert band score

I just checked some scores online and most followed what I put as the score order. Saxophilist (talk) 00:43, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

That was more or less what I did, only I came up with a variety of different orderings. I also came up with a few reference sources, containing equally contradictory information. No one but a complete idiot would trust this source, and this one may be criticised as being out-of-date, but here is a source that seems fairly reliable and contradicts "your" score order in favour of "mine". This source also seems to follow the usual orchestral order, but is describing British military-band scores. Perhaps there are some regional differences? This one and this one seem to confirm your arrangement, and are from a US high-school band's website and Dartmouth College, respectively. This one, on the contrary, uses almost the orchestral order, except for the placement of the saxophones, and is from a Canadian site. Tell me what you think.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

My guess is that more modern scores use the order that I listed, though scores do vary. Check out this 2014 symphony by John Mackey; it uses the order I listed. It also seems to make more sense keeping the double reeds together (oboe and bassoon) and the single reeds together (clarinet and saxophone) in the score. Saxophilist (talk) 01:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, "making sense" is one thing, but "standard practice" may be quite another. I have no doubt that you could find dozens of scores with the same layout as the Mackey, but there may well be an equal number with the bassoons under the clarinets, or even under the saxophones (as several of those sources would have us believe). Compiling a list, one score at a time, is no way to establish what is even "normal", let alone "standard". We could be at that task for years, and how on earth would we cite the findings in a Wikipedia article? The only full score of a band piece that I happen to own has a completely different order from any of the ones listed here so far, though this is for reasons of an eccentric seating-order required for the piece in question. As a conductor, I would not relish the thought of having to "change gears" mentally with each score I come to in a concert, so it stands to reason that there should be some sort of standard order, at least within (say) the American collegiate-band community. The Dartmouth website is the closest I could come to finding such a source, even for American college-band preferences, and it looks to me very much as if Canadian and British bands may have a very different notion of what is "sensible" or "standard". And heaven help us if we take that 1921 source into account. I am not really a "band person" myself, so I don't have any axe to grind. I would just like to see some authority with a little more weight behind it than what we have come up with so far between the two of us.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Saxophone Quartet (SATB or SATBar)

Hi Jerome, I noticed you recently changed all the SATB in the saxophone quartet page to SATBar to avoid confusion with soprano, alto, tenor, bass configuration. While SATB invariable translates to that in a choral context it's the standard shorthand for sop/alto/tenor/bari in saxophone quartets (a messy system I know). I have been trying to find a reference that clarifies that but other than common usage (try googling saxophone quartet satb) there's not much that talks about the actual usage. the closest I could get was the Richard Ingham book p 73 where it talks about arrangements. What would you say to adding an explanation on the page that SATB in this context is sop/alto/tenor/bari as per the saxophone usage not the choral one and then using the common SATB rather than SATBar throughout the article? Storeye (talk) 02:38, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

That would be one way of dealing with the problem, if indeed saxophonists are accustomed to using B for "baritone". What abbreviation do they use for an unusual scoring using a bass saxophone instead of, or in addition to a bari? (As it happens, as I was making that edit I was listening to a recording of a larger saxophone ensemble—twelve instruments in SSSAAAATTBarBarB scoring—so it was on my mind.)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

For large saxophone ensembles with a bass sax I've seen Bs for bass sax (and sno for sopranino). So the ensemble you're talking about would be SSSAAAATTBBBs. In my experience, SSSAAATTTBBB (baritones) is standard sax orchestra scoring with optional sopranino instead of soprano 1 and optional bass instead of baritone 3 abbreviated to SnoSSAAATTTBBBs. I have never heard of a soprano/alto/tenor/bass quartet but I would assume SATBs would be the abbreviation. On a side note, can I ask what recording you were listening to? I am interested in these things. Storeye (talk) 09:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Changing the saxophone quartet article to conform with this practice is fine with me, so long as a warning note is placed concerning the different understanding of the abbreviations. As I am sure you have already noticed, I added another "exceptional" scoring of a four-bass-saxophone quartet. If nothing else, it should provide an extra warning to the uninitiated reader (like myself) that the simple B does not mean "bass" in this context. The recording I was listening to was this recent release by Ensemble Konsax, Wien, of the Left-Eye Dance from Lucifer's Dance by Stockhausen, which they performed recently in Paris. I find it very good indeed, on first acquaintance (though I have known the larger piece from which it is drawn since its premiere in 1984). Since you mention a "standard saxophone orchestra", which seems to correspond closely to the scoring of this arrangement (originally created for Claude Delangle's conservatory group some years ago), do you think a Wikipedia article should be created on the subject?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Music Theory article

Hi, Jerome. I just opened a subpage of my main page, User:Hucbald.SaintAmand/Music_theory, to comment on the Music theory article. This migh eventually lead to a rewriting of the whole. If you (or anyone else) are interested in participating, you are welcome. At this point, I only commented the lead, but the rest will follow. Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 07:53, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

That dreadful article is going to require a lot of work. Thank you for starting this process with such a detailed commentary for the lead. I shall try to participate to the best of my abilities. The lead, of course, is meant to be a summary of the rest of the article, so in one sense it is putting the cart before the horse to work on the lead first. Nevertheless, it makes a good place to start thinking about what belongs in the article, and what does not. Your comments put a lot of these things in focus, and I hope that others will join in the discussion, perhaps encouraged by the fact that it has been taken off of the main article page for separate discussion.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:59, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Made me laugh

This. Just, the correction of a misspelling to one that "looks worse"... Eman235/talk 21:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean. That was a serious correction, that was. Serious! Even typos have got standards, you know!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Cantillation

Jerome, I was reading the article on Cantillation and was surprised to see the word "motive" used in "musical motives" (in the italicized note at the end of Cantillation#Music). I had more often seen "musical motifs". So I looked it up on Wiktionary and, sure enough, the sixth definition shows it to mean "motif". How often is "motive" used instead of "motif"? Corinne (talk) 20:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't really know what the relative weight of usage is for those two variants. Subjectively, I feel that "motif" is rather more old-fashioned than "motive", though at the same time "motif" offers less liklihood of confusion with other meanings ("Tell me, professor, what was your motive in placing that particular motive at the outset of your symphony?"). There may also be a difference in national style, though again I don't actually know whether the English may favour "motif" and Americans "motive", or the other way around. Sorry, but this time the oracle is saying both "yes" and "no"!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:36, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Jerome. Rothorpe Do you know? Corinne (talk) 21:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I came across motive meaning motif for the first time recently in a Wikipedia article, unless you count my (English) parents using both pronunciations to refer to some wallpaper we had back in the 50s. I'd go for 'motif' every time, but of course I'm très très pretenzioso. Rothorpe (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I see (for what it's worth) that Motive (music) is a redirect to "Motif (music)". The lead of that article quotes some ancient authority (from 1976) by an author named White, using the "motive" spelling. Since the inline citation fails to give a place or publisher (I could track down the ISBN, but I am basically too lazy), I cannot say whether this source might be British, American, Australian, or something else.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:58, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Octatonic Scale

Dear Mr. Kohl - I was reading the article on Octatonic scale and noticed that there is a missing antecedent to "his student" in the third paragraph of the ""History"" section, related to Stravinsky's use of the scale. I tracked it down the loss of the antecedent to your edit of April 3, 2015. Thanks.Henryaz (talk) 04:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

I will check it and, unless you have already corrected my error, fix it myself. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:20, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Corrected. Thanks again.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:27, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Musical examples.

As you have noticed, I have been adding Lilypond musical examples to a number of articles. At this time, I am not always focused on the text. I have noticed a lack of cited sources and/or a lot of subjective statements. You commented that my examples are highlighting the number of requests for citation. Any thoughts or suggestions?Profbounds (talk) 18:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Your examples are not the problem; it is the uncited text. I merely felt it necessary to explain why it is necessary to proliferate the "citation needed" tags. In one case, the insertion of an example actually helped to focus the problem, when the new break came immediately after an attributed direct quotation. At that point, I was able to use the more specific {{citequote}} template. Only one of your examples seems actually to conflict with the wording, and that is the natural-horn solo, which may need some additional context in order to clarify how a pentatonic melody that assiduously avoids the note F can be in F major. Or is that example in transposed, rather than sounding notation? (I don't have a score handy to check.) As long as I have your attention, does the natural-trumpet solo actually use the three-quarter-flat sign? In the (manuscript) example in Howells's 1922 article, there are ordinary D-flats.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

I have been transposing all examples to C. Yes, that horn solo is over an F minor chord - the dissonance is quite haunting. I could add the chord underneath. The trumpet solo does not use the three-quarter-flat sign, I debated on whether to use the quarter flat to get the sound right vs. the actual notation (c g c b-flat g c b-flat g c b-flat in the untransposed E-flat trumpet part). The three-quarter-flat still is a little too flat compared to the natural harmonic but I thought it might help demonstrate the "intonation" called out in the text.Profbounds (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Adding the chord underneath would be quite helpful—perhaps even essential, given that the melody alone "sounds" to me (based solely on the example—I have not heard this symphony now for several years, and do not clearly remember how it goes) centred more on D than anything else. This of course makes perfect sense, given RVW's liking for the slightly unstable, "floating" quality of chords featuring a sixth above the bass. I don't think the discrepancy between a three-quarter-flat and a septimal seventh is worth the trouble of having to explain an even less-standard accidental sign, but it may be a good idea to add a remark explaining that the printed score uses a regular D-flat, and relies on the nature of the instrument (and the good will of the player, who can with only a little effort "correct" that note to give an ordinary D-flat) to produce the intended tuning. When (if) you get around to adding examples to Britten's Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings, you are going to be faced with a much greater notational dilemma, since not only the 7th and 11th, but also the 13th partial of F are specified in the score without any special accidentals (though nearly every horn player substitutes the 14th for the 13th, as Dennis Brain did originally, probably without realising his mistake).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:05, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

LOL at the Britten dilemma. I will add the chord in for the horn example and "fix" the trumpet. Perhaps an actual sound byte from a performance could demonstrate the natural tuning better.Profbounds (talk) 13:28, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Every performing musician knows the shortcomings of our notation system, even without venturing into refinements of tuning! A sound byte from a really good performance would doubtless be at least a more realistic demonstration of the passage than a synthesized example, but the problem of copyright violation might arise. I don't know the ins and outs of this, but I am told it is a real nest of worms.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Sorry to butt in and be nosy, but where, please, are the trumpet and horn examples that you are discussing? Just curious. Thanks DBaK (talk) 20:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) btw Jerome are you sure you didn't mean it was a can of vipers? DBaK (talk) 20:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Prolly a can of vipers, yes. The article in question is the one on Ralph Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 3.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Ah great, thank you. DBaK (talk) 21:00, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

{{Cite thesis}}

Hello, Jerome! Regarding this edit: The documentation for {{Cite thesis}} states outright that it should be used for formatting dissertation references. If you feel that it is not actually appropriate for formatting dissertation references, then could you raise your concern here so it can be addressed? Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 23:06, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps I shall do as you suggest but, as you no doubt are aware, there is no standard citation style on Wikipedia, so that CS1 and CS2 are merely two broadly representative styles among hundreds. The problem with the citatoins in the article Pachelbel's Canon goes far deeper, since there are at least four different citation formats in place at the moment, and therehave been still others in the recent past. When that particular dissertation was first added, it was formatted in the style to which I have been trying to return it. In the meantime, two different inline citations to it have been reformatted in two different styles. I think the appropriate place to discuss this is actually on the article's Talk page, since years and years of discussion about creating a uniform citation style for Wikipedia have proved utterly fruitless, leading to the guideline directing editors to seek consensus on an article-by-article basis. If the CS1 discussion page can lead to more flexibility in the template associated with (or conformable to) that style constellation, then this is a good thing in my opinion. However, it appears to me that the raison d'être of CS1 is to create uniformity, so that increasing formatting flexibility from within it actually subverts its purpose.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, and I agree with them all. My original note to you was sparked by your edit summary commenting on italicizing the title of the work, so I was thinking more specifically about that rather than citation style consistency in general. While researching this I found that MOS:ITALICS doesn't seem to address whether a Ph.D. dissertation should be italicized or not. It says that "research papers" should not be italicized, but I think that it may be reasonable to draw a distinction between a doctoral dissertation and a research paper. It does discuss editorial discretion regarding formatting booklets vs. short books vs. pamphlets vs. leaflets, but it seems that dissertations vs. everything else is a notable omission, given what it is that we do here. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 23:44, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I have seen style sheets that recommend italics for thesis and dissertation titles (D. Kern Holoman's Writing about Music: A Style Sheet, for example), but in my experience they are in a very small minority. I also believe that "research papers" is meant to include theses and dissertations, but then it is often difficult to know what people mean if they do not spell it out in agonizing detail. In the meantime, I have double-checked my memory and found out I was wrong: I did not add Weller's disertation myself and, when it was added on 17 November 2009, User:Jashiin did italicize the title. However, this does not change the fact that there are by my present count six different citation styles used in this one article, which is contrary to WP:CITESTYLE, which states "citations within any given article should follow a consistent style".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:01, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Theory and (or vs) analysis

This discussion may better be followed here. You wrote on User:Hucbald.SaintAmand/Music_theory:

Thanks for the links to very pertinent and interesting discussions. My "feed" to SMT-Talk was severed some months ago after some strange messages about my email account, which made no sense at all. Discussions there had become rather tedious, but I see this is not the case at the main bulletin board. I have been aware of this debate for nearly twenty years now, and it is of considerable personal interest, since my (American) credentials are as a "music theorist", but in Europe am usually addressed as a "musicologist". Neither term is as well-suited to what I do as the word "analyst" is (though I find both theory and musicology disciplines of immense importance for my analyses!), but in the American academy this seems not to be a separate category. Perhaps this discussion points to a future change of thinking in the US.

• 1) SMT Discuss replaced SMT-Talk, with important changes, mainly that you don't have to be inscribed to read the messages, and that there is no moderator (which made possible the clash that ended the discussion on theory vs analysis; on SMT-Talk, some of the messages would have been blocked, I think).
• 2) "Musicology", in Europe, often merely translates Musikwissenschaft and denotes all aspects of the knowledge of music, including both history and theory (and history of theory, and theory of history, etc.). Solfège, Harmony, Counterpoint, may be considered "theory", but what is meant, often, really is "technique". The Paris Conservatoire, in the list of its disciplines, quotes neither theory nor technique. Harmony and counterpoint belong to the field named "Écriture", and the Conservatoire also has a domain strikingly named "Musicologie et analyse". The Lyon Conservatoire divides the disciplines between "Principales" and "Complémentaires"; analysis and "écriture" (harmony, counterpoint, etc.) are "complémentaires". Neither of them proposes classes in anything called "theory".

This all may also belong to a "Music Theory" article. Indeed, if the article wants to cover music theory worldwide, why not include Europe? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:13, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, "Musikwissenschaftler" is the word that was in my mind, and I am more familiar with the senses this carries in Germany than I am with "musicologie" in France. Thank you for the explanation, and also for informing me what actually happened to SMT-Talk. I thought my email provider might have caused some problems that led to termination of my subscription.

I believe that the journal Music Analysis was founded in Britain with the deliberate aim of creating a more focussed field, similar to the intention of the founders of the Journal of Music Theory in America two or three decades earlier, which resulted eventually in the creation of the SMT and the proliferation of advanced-degree programmes in music theory in US and Canadian universities. The Zeitschrift für Musiktheorie in Germany foundered after a few years in the 1970s, but similar journals have also been created in the areas of either analysis or theory, in Italy and France, at least. I have had some contact with European scholars who distance themselves from "musicology" by calling themselves "analysts" instead. It is interesting that "theory" as a separate discipline seems to be having more difficulty establishing itself in Europe than "analysis", while in America it is the other way around. Certainly the place of music theory (however we eventually define it) in Europe should be an important part of the article which, as it presently stands (apart from the ridiculous preamble on prehistoric "theory"), suggests it should be retitled "American music theory".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:57, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Choral symphony

Thanks for keeping an eye on this article and for cleaning up the bibliography. Both are welcome and apprecaited.Jonyungk (talk) 17:28, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

My pleasure. It is a well-written and informative article. I just thought it was time the bibliography was tidied up a bit, the better to reflect in appearance the quality of the article as a whole.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:38, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

The timing was very good. I was notified that the article is up for review by FAC, so I was going through the article body as you were going through the bibliography.Jonyungk (talk) 14:13, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

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"Chrono within Alpha"

Hello Jerome, Surely Barry Cooper alphabetically precedes Martin Cooper? Knucmo2 (talk) 20:37, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

PS I read one of your Stockhausen articles for my MMus. Very informative.

Oops! That's one thing I hate about those templates: you can go cross-eyed trying to figure out where each parameter has gone, so in the end I just looked at "last=" and thought that told me everything I needed to know. I guess it's back to Templates for Dummies for me!

I'm glad to hear that at least one person has read one of my articles. I encourage you to read some of the others—I promise they will be just as informative!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:50, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Agon and Giuseppe Anedda

I see you reverted my change to Agon. Do you find the material irrelevant, unsourced or did I choose a bad way to put in the information?Jacqke (talk) 17:43, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I saw after typing the above that you did give a reason, not sourced. Letting you know I just resubmitted with my sources.Jacqke (talk) 17:58, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Practices vary amongst different editors, but I always explain my reasons in an Edit Summary. Reliable sources are required for most things on Wikipedia, especially for a claim that sounds as unlikely as this one. I look forward to reading your verifying documentation.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:15, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

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Sandbox page on Westen Music Theory

I just opened a new sandbox page, User:Hucbald.SaintAmand/Western_music_theory. Your collaboration will be most welcome. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 14:49, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I will try my best to contribute, though things in my non-Wikipedia life have suddenly turned very busy indeed.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:10, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Kelsely Abaza

I would like to calmly discuss the matter. Indeed some pages I have been thinking are appropriate may not be for this work (I'm fairly new to Wikipedia and I am trying my best to share the art I love), but some certainly are. This is not 'pop', simply give it a listen. In terms of teh Egyptian music article I think this is indeed relevant and useful. As we see he has already gained acclaim in Egypt and soem in New Zealand, and is presenting something very new that fascinates me as I am a lover both of electronic experimental music and Egyptian culture. You are welcome to view the video for 'Grounded' if you wish, an 8.30 long piece hat is very hard to digest and is far from pop - he created video and music to play in a prestigious NZ institution where the specific them was Egypt post-revolution. I was lucky to attend one of his concerts in Christchurch, but I only got to shake his hands. There is a growing local following going on across the hemispheres. This is not pop. Graceaudio (talk) 01:59, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough, but there are many issues beyond whether his music is "pop" (or "popular"). First of all, since you are new to Wikipedia, you should make yourself familiar with some principles in the guidlines you can read at MOS:LEAD, WP:PEACOCK, and WP:NOT. Your enthusiasm for Kelsely Abaza's music is commendable, but it is important to keep things in proportion. Inserting a wildly enthusiastic comment at the very top of an article not primarily about this artist is not in proportion to the article. Adding a soundfile to the main body of an article (as opposed to the "External links" at the bottom may or may not be in proportion. In an article like Electronic music, for example, there are no sound examples for internationally known composers in the field, such as Milton Babbitt, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Iannis Xenakis, Halim El-Dabh, Morton Subotnik, Charles Dodge, Barry Truax, and many others. This suggests caution when the composer you are adding is scarcely known outside of his own country.

As to the question of genre(s), it is not up to you or me to listen to the music and decide for ourselves what category it might fit. On Wikipedia, this is called "original research" (often abbreviated OR). Instead, it is necessary to find reliable sources that make this determination for us. Several of the articles to which you attempted adding this artist's name are mutually contradictory. For example, Electronic dance music is a type of popular music, and it is inconceivable that Avant-garde music, the very purpose of which is to annoy or outrage listeners (often with a political message) would find any favour in clubs or at raves. Similarly, although there are some who might argue there is an overlap between popular and classical music, that overlap is very marginal at best, so that EDM is difficult to justify as "classical music". While it is possible that a composer might write different kinds of music for different audiences, or may turn from one style to another in the course of his career, this also needs to be established by reliable sources. Experimental music is especially tricky because the phrase is used in at least five different senses, few of which have anything to do with one another. I suggest you read that article carefully, and you will see what I mean. Next, browse the articles on Minimal music and Postminimalism. When you have done so, move on to Neofolk (a genre with which I have absolutely no familiarity at all) and carefully consider whether "avant garde" and "classical" are not actually exclusive of that category. All of this, of course, is only background for your work on Wikipedia. It will the the reliable sources you find that decide what genres or esthetics are appropriate.

Best wishes for you future work on Wikipedia. It can be a bewildering place at first.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:00, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

-Hi. thanks for your answer. I will keep all your advice in mind. He is well known locally in at two countries. I live in the town he plays most often. I saw him at a Sonic Art society where he played songs that are in no way dancy - I really think even though he has dancy songs he is not EDM. I accept that adding him to pages like 'electronic music' was silly cause no other artist as you say had audio there. I will of course continue with not just him but other favourites. But he is being very active here in my town now and people are getting excited what I am doing is supporting music that really makes me feel so very good. It is strange and new to me ...even stranger than many IDM artists I love. Also I find just so very interesting that he is an researcher and makes political work and visual work. I think his inclusion in Arabic or Egyptian and of course New zealand music stuff is relevant. His article itself I don't know how to improve so thats why I move him to other relevant pages....Because I have never heard of an middle eastern electronic artist in this style before. Graceaudio (talk) 02:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

You are welcome. Do try to temper your enthusiasm with a little reflective judgement. Since I have not actually heard any of Kelsely Abaza's music, I am not able to say whether or not his style may bear any similarity to that of Halim El-Dabh (also an Egyptian), of whom I can only assume you have heard, since he is one of the great pioneers of electronic/concrète music.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:27, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

This week's article for improvement

I just thought you might be interested to know that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors has selected Musical composition as This Week's Article for Improvement. See User talk:Corinne#This week's article for improvement (week 41, 2015). The project is mainly for copy-editors, but since music is your field and you're a good writer, you might like to take a look at the article. Corinne (talk) 15:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Corinne. I had noticed a brief spate of activity on that long-dormant article, but did not notice it has been earmarked for improvement. It could certainly use some work.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Bacteria set to music

I'll bet you've never seen the movement of bacteria set to music. I've been discussing diagrams made by an editor, and s/he provided links to U Tube videos s/he made of bacteria Video: Myxococcus xanthus preying on an E. coli colony. They're fascinating. I watched several in a row, and then two more (possibly made by a different person) in which the movement of the bacteria is set to music. Here's one: [5]. What is that music? Is that from Carmina Burana? The one following that is set to a different type of music. See the last part of User talk:Corinne#Termite (energy source section). Corinne (talk) 16:20, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Truthfully, I cannot say I have ever seen the movement of bacteria set to music. I have seen music composed to chemistry equations, music created by tracing the New York skyline on graph paper, and a lot of other things. On he other hand, many living organisms display rhythmic movement of one sort or another. It is not difficult to find examples of human-produced music that correspond to these rhythms, though it would be much easier to use those rhythms to produce unfamiliar music of one sort or another.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:39, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Fantasía Bética

I was just reading the article on Fantasía Bética by Manuel de Falla. I want to ask you what you thought about the last sentence in the second paragraph:

• The piano particularly evokes the percussive and harp-like effects of ancient plucked-string instruments.

I thought, if the writer was singling out the piano for emphasis, "in particular" would be better than "particularly". If the writer intended to highlight something that the piano does especially, perhaps: "The piano is especially effective in evoking..." or something like that. What do you think? Corinne (talk) 01:34, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Either of these would be an improvement. The trouble is with knowing which is meant. The reliable source cited in support of this interpretation should be consulted to clarify the meaning.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, I just read the only reference given in the article, the one in Fantasía Bética#References by Nancy Lee Harper (that's the first article I've read like that, going into depth about a musical composition), and I think "the guitar and the harpsichord" would be better than "ancient plucked-string instruments". References to the guitar are all through the Harper article, and the harpsichord is discussed in the section "Organological aspects" (bottom of page 12 to top of page 13), especially the last paragraph. Also, I was surprised that the French influence in the piece was not mentioned at all in Fantasía Bética. Is the Harper article not a good source? Regarding "particularly", etc., I realize that since the work was written for piano, the writer was not singling out the piano, so "the piano in particular" would be wrong. I'm not sure how it should be worded, though. From the Harper article, I understand that a great part of the work is the recreation or evocation of the sounds of the guitar. Corinne (talk) 16:54, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I would not say that the single source cited looks especially reliable, though I have certainly seen worse examples. I did not previous bother looking at it, since it seemed merely to be supporting the paragraph about the work's origins. The source should cite the author, title, and year (2004), as well as the website name where it is published. That website is the worrisome thing, since it proclaims itself to be a "SPECIAL NEEDS IN MUSIC WEB SITE: A Resource for People of All Ages, Abilities and Challenges", and "Excellent for Pre-K, Elementary, Education Majors and Life Long Learners." In short, a long way from a peer-reviewed journal or other publisher with some sort of editorial oversight. It probably amounts to a self-published source, and appears to be aimed at children with learning difficulties.

Certainly "ancient plucked-string instruments" is not supported by that source. This would mean lyres or frame harps of ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, or Rome, and similar things. Why on earth would Falla have wanted to evoke those (and Harper certainly says no such thing)? Given the regionalism suggested by the title, the harpsichord is also unlikely. This sentence sounds like it may have been written by a non-native English speaker, possibly with French as native language (where "ancien" can mean simply "old", without necessarily suggesting antiquity).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:55, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Jerome Kohl and Corinne, if you allow me to interfere in this discussion, let me stress (1) that the reference to "ancient" instruments was added recently (23 July 2015) by a certain Oldwes who does not have a WP user page, but who might as well be Spanish (or Portuguese) as French; (2) that Nancy Lee Harper rightly reminds that Falla wrote for harpsichord [the Pleyel modern harpsichord]; she adds that she herself played the Fantasía on a pedal harpsichord and found it to sound better on that instrument. Such an instrument certainly cannot be ancient, nor even very old, but certainly obsolete: it is indeed rather rare. I had been questioned, about twenty years ago (or more, I am afraid), whether such a harpsichord could be found in Europe for playing the Falla concerto in concert, and I unfortunately had to reply negatively. Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 20:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you both for your interesting comments. I'm surprised that this article would be on that website, Jerome, because it is rather sophisticated for children or even young adults with learning disabilities. The prose isn't perfect, but the subject matter is fairly advanced. That's not to say that it is a reliable source, though, of course. So, I guess that means that this short article has no reliable sources. Corinne (talk) 22:16, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Hucbald.SaintAmand, for the information about the recent edit. I had not looked at the edit history. Nancy Lee Harper's article is also on a Portuguese-based website, I believe, and while I am not as familiar with that language as I am with French and Spanish, I think the usage of the equivalents of French "ancien" (antigo/antiguo) are very similar, and could also account for the odd choice of English word. I agree with you, Corinne, that Harper's writing is rather sophisticated for the stated aims of that website, especially because of the extensive bibliography provided. It is hard to judge whether it should be regarded as reliable or not but, given that there are several recent biographies of Falla with a much better pedigree (by Carol Hess, Burnett James, and indeed two by Nancy Lee Harper) perhaps those should be used to confirm some of the information in this Wikipedia article, insteadof the online source.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Diminished symbol

Perhaps you could help kwami at User talk:Hyacinth#What is the symbol at half-diminished seventh chord?. Hyacinth (talk) 09:25, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I hope I have been of help with my response. Thanks for bringing my attention to this.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:28, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Aspects of Music source formatting

Hi Jerome,

For the referencing I did last night on aspects/elements of music, I used the "cite book" template to add the reference. The template did the rest. I would appreciate if you could tell me what I did wrong. It was a little unclear in relation to the 'chapters in books' referencing that I was doing.

I agree I need a page number for the Kamien reference and will find it and add it next week. However, I am not sure why the other source formatting information is still on the main page. Regards, Rburtonreserach — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rburtonresearch (talk • contribs) 00:26, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

You did nothing wrong, except that the article uses parenthetical referencing, instead of footnotes. There is an alphabetical list of references, with the inline parenthetical refs linked to that list. It is one of the several different formats used on Wikipedia, which has no house style, only a rule that within any given article there should be a uniform referencing style. Please see WP:CITEVAR to start with. I don't understand your reference to "source formatting information".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 09:35, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, I will attempt to modify the formatting to comply with current formatting. In relation to "source formatting information", when I visited the page the section I had edited looked like the edit page: {{harvnb|Cohen and Dubnov1997| etc. was on the read page. It has since been modified by Bgwhite and now looks fine Rburtonresearch (talk) 11:09, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I see I left behind two typos. I should have checked more carefully. Unfortunately, Bgwhite corrected these mistakes in the wrong direction. I have in turn restored the correct formatting parameters for the Harvard citations used in that article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I should have the missing page number tomorrow Rburtonresearch (talk) 10:23, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

You are welcome. There is no particular hurry on the page number, but readers are entitled to a clear pointer in case they feel inclined to check the references for themselves. Thanks for tending to this.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:51, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

New flamenco

Hello, Jerome -- I'm in the midst of copy-editing the article on Michael Laucke. I enjoyed the two snippets of music in the article, and I wanted to read more about new flamenco, so clicked on the link. It's a short article, but there are tags at the top that have been there for a long time, so I thought of you. I don't know for sure, but I would guess that flamenco guitar is not your area of expertise, but maybe you could help a little, or find someone who could. Corinne (talk) 03:18, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Flamenco guitar is certainly not something I know much about, and I can't think off the top of my head who might be of more help. Nevertheless, I will take a look at that article and see if there is anything I can do.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:15, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Michael Laucke

Jerome, would you mind telling me if "Exploration" is formatting correctly in Michael Laucke#Original works? It's in regular (Roman) font with no quotation marks. Corinne (talk) 03:41, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I've got to ask you about two other things:

1) What do you think of this section heading?

Michael Laucke#Atonal works written for

It sounds a little odd to me, but I wouldn't know what to change it to.

2) Right after that heading, the first sentence starts:

• The following major and minor pieces and works...

Is it essential to distinguish between "pieces" and "works"? Are both words needed? If one is supposed to be grander than the other, doesn't "major and minor" express that sufficiently? Corinne (talk) 03:57, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

No, Exploration was not formatted correctly. I have dealt with this. I agree the section heading is odd on two counts: first, "atonal" is a suspect category, second "written for" what or whom? You are absolutely right about "pieces and works", and even "major and minor" is a pointless quibble.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:27, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Heitor Villa-Lobos

I was just looking at the article on Heitor Villa-Lobos, and I saw near the end of the article two short recordings of his music. I listened to part of each one. They're both quite "modern" (abstract?). I thought Villa-Lobos also wrote music a little closer to Brazilian folk music, a little more lyrical, if that's the right word. If I'm right, is there any way you could add another recording to the article so that readers get a chance to hear something different from the recordings that are already there? Corinne (talk) 03:27, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Two short pieces? All I find is the Woodwind Trio, which consists of three modertely long movements. The first movement, at least, is very close to Brazilian folk music. Listen to the oboe solo that starts after a few bars of accompanimental figuration in the other two instruments. It is true that this trio is not in his lush, full-on "popular" style, such as the Bachianas Brasileiras No. 5, but neither is it in his more "modernist" mode, like the Eighth String Quartet. As for uploading recordings, I have no experience doing that. The main problem here would be with copyright. I have seen quite a number of recordings from the Soni Ventorum (who perform here) on other articles, so presumably someone involved with that group has been releasing the recording into the public domain. I find this unusual, if refreshing, but the more commercially viable of HVL's work is bound to resist such treatment from performers, who understandably want compensation for their efforts in the form of royalties.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@Corinne and Jerome Kohl: I think I can be of help with the lyrical side of music of Villa-Lobos. You may know that he wrote 12 preludes and 5 studies for the classical guitar. An article I am working on,Michael Laucke, mentions a CD called "Jade Eyes" which has original transcriptions for the classical guitar and voice, and orchestral works arranged for this combination. These include two very lyrical works by Villa-Lobos. You can sample the album here, which has the two newly transcribed works. I very much enjoyed this refreshing music; the album earned its "lauriers" (laurels?) from music reviewers as one of 12 best international releases. I have the pleasure to be in contact with the office of Mr. Laucke and they have been very generous and easy to work with. I am sure I can get proper copyright authorization to use whichever work you like. It would be my pleasure to upload your choice for you to Commons; thus you will have free legal access with all copyright properly in place of course. I have programming skills and know the code to place it wherever you wish within an article, so I can offer this as well; it would be my pleasure. There are other Villa-Lobos instrumental classical guitar works played live at the National Gallery of Art, on michaellaucke.com, which you can find here. The recording quality of the two preludes is quite good for a radio broadcast. I'm sure I can procure these as well.

@Corinne: I would be amiss not to mention how much @Checkingfax: and me appreciated your subtle yet very effective edits on Michael Laucke. So, un grand merci! ...much gratitude. all my very best wishes, cordialement, --Natalie.Desautels (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Natalie.Desautels Thank you so much for providing the link to the thirteen songs, the first two of which are by Villa-Lobos. I enjoyed listening to all of the songs. As for which of the two by Villa-Lobos would be best for the article, I should first say I am very far from being a music expert. So, please understand that the following is the opinion of an amateur: I liked both songs. The first one, Blue Dusk, seems, in comparison to the second one, to be more abstract, more sophisticated, less folkloric. The second one is closer to the popular folkloric melodies that one sometimes associates with Villa-Lobos. I wonder whether the second one (I think it's called "Love Song") might be more accessible for the average WP reader. Jerome, what do you think? If one of these songs is added to the Villa-Lobos article, which one do you prefer? Corinne (talk) 00:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Transcriptions are of course quite a different thing from examples of the composer's actual compositions. The performances of the original versions, on the other hand, may be of value. The preludes in particular are good examples of HVL's "populist" style, while the etudes are a bit more sophisticated, compositionally speaking, even though remaining well within his "traditional" stylistic compass.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:45, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@Jerome Kohl:Very good. Agreed of course that a transcription can only try to emulate the original, especially when reducing a full orchestra to the six strings of the guitar. As mentioned, let me know if the original classical guitar preludes 8 and 11 are useful for your purposes, as performed here at the National Gallery. I know Mr. Laucke owns the rights, and he is very open to sharing. If you scroll down the page to "CBC LIVE, at Pollack Hall, Montreal, 1981", there are several other Villa-Lobos works, which I imagine one would expect since Villa-Lobos is an important composer for the classical guitar. But I don't find the CBC recording quality very good in this instance; in my opinion, the National Gallery recording (preludes 8 and 11) is much better quality. best wishes, Natalie --Natalie.Desautels (talk) 08:10, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@Natalie.Desautels: Hmm. Those must be the Études nos. 8 and 11, though I have not listened to them yet. There are only five Preludes, and it appears that they are also available on that site. This page could certainly be added to the External links section of the Villa-Lobos article. Thank you.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@Jerome Kohl, Corinne, and Checkingfax: Thank you Jerome Kohl for the correction. I see that the website (michaellaucke.com) I contacted earlier has already fixed the Préludes / Études reversal. "En passant", I found that the Études 8 and 11 really are quite nice. ..so did the Washington Post critic that evening 44 years ago, it would seem. I'm sure she was referring to those spirited sixtuplets in Étude 11 since she mentions "...a sound with no apparent attack. It is a tone that wells up from the instrument and rings. It is astonishing!" And that is precisely the impression it conveys I feel. Well, thanks again for your kind correction. meilleurs voeux, --Natalie.Desautels (talk) 06:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Jean Papineau-Couture

I was just looking at the article on Jean Papineau-Couture, and I noticed that there was no photograph of him. I'm wondering if you could find a good photo to add to the article. Corinne (talk) 03:52, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't be of any help there. While I am very much aware of this outstanding Canadian composer, I have no idea where to start looking for a copyright-free portrait of him.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@Checkingfax, Corinne, and Jerome Kohl: You should be able to find a number of copyright-free portraits of Papineau-Couture at the Canadian Music Centre | Centre de Musique Canadienne. If not from the website, call them and they will take the pleasure to scan and send it to you, freely licensed. --Natalie.Desautels (talk) 08:21, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for calling my attention to this resource.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:48, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks also from me, Natalie. Corinne (talk) 22:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Sharon Isbin

Hello again, Jerome -- I was skimming the article on Sharon Isbin, and I noticed that there were quite a few external links within the article, especially in the section Sharon Isbin#Music career. Are those links supposed to be there? Also, in the box at the right that contains a link to a recording that one can listen to, there is what looks like a file, with a pair of double square brackets, but I don't think it's supposed to appear like that, is it? Corinne (talk) 02:30, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

The guideline on embedded external links is here, and is very clear that they should not be used. There are some helpful hints on what to do to correct this usage, also. I'll have to look again at those double square brackets, which sound like an editing error.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:39, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I now see where those double brackets are being generated, but I don't understand the template syntax. It is in a parameter called "Filename2", and looks formatted correctly, but I can't think what it might be meant to do—perhaps enclose a second sound file in the same box? You might try asking on the Village Pump, or on the template's Talk page.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I read the paragraph regarding embedded external links, but, other than a statement that if added to an article they should be regarded as temporary, I don't see any instruction about what to do in this case. Should they just be removed? Should they be moved to an external links section at the end of the article? Corinne (talk) 02:46, 19 November 2015 (UTC) P.S. Did you see my reply to Natalie (and question to you) in the middle of the section on Heitor Villa-Lobos, above? It's right after Natalie's name, which I put in [blue] bold-face. Corinne (talk) 02:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

The guideline says they should not be removed, but rather "They should be considered temporary, and replaced with more complete, properly formatted citations as soon as possible." Why is that not clear? I did see your question to me about the Villa-Lobos tracks, but you are very difficult to keep up with today! I don't know Villa-Lobos's songs by the English translations of their names, but I believe there is a "Love Song" in the film music he wrote for Green Mansions (made into a concert suite called Forest of the Amazon, although the film was set in Venezuela, I think). Of course, there may be five others. "Blue Dusk" sounds vaguely familiar. Do you know the Portuguese title? Maybe it would be easiest if I just went to that page and listened for myself.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:15, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Jerome; sorry to have annoyed you. Yes, I understood what it said, but I thought you could do the replacing (if you feel like it, and when you have time, of course). Corinne (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. This is a fairly routine operation, and something I have done hundreds of times. Sorry for being so testy, but it did seem rather obvious to me.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:59, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Joseph Canteloube

I was just reading the article on Joseph Canteloube, and at the end of the fifth paragraph in Joseph Canteloube#Biography, it says he founded the Bardic College of Gaul. I couldn't find anything in WP on it. Do you know anything about it? Corinne (talk) 02:42, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

There is an article about this neo-druidic organization on the French Wikipedia, under the French name: Collège bardique des Gaules. I'm afraid it sounds a bit like Asterix and Obelix to me.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:58, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

@Corinne, Checkingfax, and Jerome Kohl:

Hello @Corinne and Jerome Kohl:. ...some exciting versiosn of Songs of the Auvergne (Cantelobe) here. ...hope this helps. Cordialement, Natalie --Natalie.Desautels (talk) 07:58, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Erik Satie

Hello again, Jerome -- I just read the article on Erik Satie. I found quite a few "citation needed" or "clarification needed" tags. Also, I wanted to ask you about a sentence. It's in the section Erik Satie#Height of success and influence:

• However, the acceleration in Satie's life did not come so much from the success of his new piano pieces; it was Ravel who inadvertently triggered the characteristics of Satie's remaining years and thus influenced the successive progressive artistic and cultural movements that rapidly manifested themselves in Paris over the following years.

This sentence struck me as being overly academic (and/or written by a non-native speaker of English) and a little long. What do you think?

Finally, I wondered why there was no evaluation of Satie as a composer (or musician) by modern critics. Do you think there is anything that could be added to the article? Corinne (talk) 03:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

@Corinne, Checkingfax, and Jerome Kohl: Hello again Corinne . I am wondering if the following versions of the Satie Gymnopedies nos. 1, 2 and 3 would be appropriate for inclusion somewhere in the Satie article (...very much enjoyed, by the way). Apparently, according to the liner notes, " ...these arrangements of the 'Three Gymnopedies' for classical guitar comprise ALL the notes of the original piano versions: a most complex process since all the piano sounds must fit comfortably, or uncomfortably, onto the six strings of the guitar." The audio version of all three can be found here and a video of Gymnopedie no 1 here. There is a section in the article called "Arrangements in popular music" but I don't know if it would fit there. The Waterloo publication goes on to say "The characteristic harmonies of much of the music of Erik Satie belongs to the impressionist period. Although originally written for the piano, it tends to be extremely well suited to the natural idiomatic expression of the guitar." If you have a moment, kindly let me know if you agree.

I would have liked to read more about the Gymnopedies in the Wikipedia article. There are ample notes on liner jackets from, say, Waterloo Music Publishing company (now closed). One interesting note says that Satie claimed "the Gynopedies were ceremonial dances performed at ancient Greek festivals! However, upon further research, this proved to be the fruits of an over zealous imagination." In American culture, he was known as the "world's first hippie". Satie was the first to use such expressions as "Madame Chose", which became very popular in Greenwich village in the early seventies, especially in the Gay village ("Miss Thing"). I could venture to insert these facts, backed up by proper sources, but I'm just getting my feet wet in Wikipedia, so ...not too at ease to tamper with others' work. meilleurs voeux, --Natalie.Desautels (talk) 07:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Another musician-editor

I just left a comment at User talk:Twomcvms#Climate of Argentina. My comment is not important, but then I looked at his/her user page, User:Twomcvms, and saw that s/he is a cellist. Perhaps at some point you could get him/her involved in editing music articles. Corinne (talk) 02:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

A bit of turkey for you

Happy Thanksgiving! I saw this on Tryptofish's talk page. Have you seen it before? [6]. Corinne (talk) 00:01, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh. My. God. It makes my fingers ache to watch! The player is clearly an accomplished keyboardist, but becoming orientated to the different disposition of the notes on a computer keyboard must be harder than re-learning to play the violin with the instrument in the right hand and the bow in the left (as Reinhard Goebel had to do)! No, I had not seen that before. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:43, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Well if that's making you ache, please, while still in pain, take a quick look at this. It has boggled my mind; it raises a number of questions ... Best wishes (someone on a self-imposed break) 77.96.249.228 (talk) 16:36, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

It does boggle the mind, but at least the keyboard layout is still linear! I might have suspected trick photography, had it not been for the ordinary piano on the platform behind the player. I gather from some of the associated links that he plays right-handed as well. I suppose this makes him an ambidextrous pianist (which must be even rarer than a left-handed one). It would probably cause me more discomfort if I were not a dyslexic pianist myself!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:34, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Ha, and yes! Thanks for the reply. He's the cousin of an ex-colleague of mine. I was a bit surprised when I heard about him. I do still, to be honest, wonder why. But hey. With all good wishes 77.96.249.228 (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

There exists in the Brussels Museum of instruments a piano with two keyboards, one "normal" and the other in the reversed direction: see [7]. As one can read on this page, it was played by Christopher Seed (who else could it have been?) in 2000; I heard that concert. I think to remember that we were shown a special notation for this piano, transcriptions of pieces by Liszt among others; I have been unable to confirm this recollection, but the Brussels Museum page does allude to such scores. See also [8]. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Better and better! Was that concert in 2000 held on 1 April, by any chance?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Very nice, Hucbald.SaintAmand. Did you happen to look at the links below that? Did you see "Pleyel grand piano with "Luthéal" mechanism"? I listened to the Ravel piece. That is strange. Corinne (talk) 17:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Two points:

(1), to Jerome Kohl, no, it was not (that I remember) on 1 April, it was a very serious concert, all the more so that Ms Haine, then Director of the Museum, considered herself a specialist of Zarembski and took all that very seriously (more so, I reckon, than many of the listeners).

(2) to Corinne, I had seen and studied this "Luthéal" in the Brussels Museum some time before 2000. My recollection is that the Lutheal mechanism is rather primitive, consisting in a normal Pleyel semi grand, with devices that can be brought in contact with the strings by stops that protrude above the keyboard (see the photo in the concerned Museum page). There appear to be basically two devices: one near the tuning pins, producing sort of a harpsichord sound, and one nearer to mid-length of the strings, probably meant to damp even harmonics. I think to remember that it was said in the Museum that this was the original (and perhaps the unique) Lutheal ever built. The kinds of devices that can be lowered on the strings are not unlike sordini or bassoon stops of 19th-century pianos, or the strips of paper that we used to weave in the strings of grand pianos before classes began in the Conservatoire. What seems certain, however, is that Ravel wrote Tzigane for an instrument of this kind (perhaps for this one). But I saw that instrument in a previous life, really, (more than 20 years ago) and my memory about all this is rather weak.

Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Mail

You've got mail. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

PS: I think my email might seem to have an unintended undertone or silent question which might be stated as the freshman's perennial question: "What good is this stuff, anyway?" That's not at all my direction or belief; there's no undertone or silent question behind my question. It's just an objective inquiry and thank you for looking at it. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Music Theory article

Many thanks for your corrections to the Music Theory article, Jerome. Many thanks also for indirectly showing me how to achieve proper references. I was conscious that my system was not the right one; the only thing I could do was to provide references as complete as possible, and to hope that someone would improve on that.

There still is a problem that I cannot solve: the reference to Owen Wright in the New Grove online actually points to two separate articles, on the one hand Munajjim, al- [Yaḥyā ibn] (the full reference to which is Owen Wright. "Munajjim, al-." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. Oxford University Press, accessed December 18, 2015, http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/00654.), and on the other hand the section quoted from the Arab music article. These, I think, should become separate references in the list. An additional problem will also arise from the fact that the article may later have to quote other sections of the Arab music article, also by Owen Wright.

I also have slight doubts about identifying the reference as "Wright (n.d.)". These articles probably have a date: they were first published on paper in 2001, as you know, and I strongly doubt that they have been modified since. They do not figure as such in the 1980 edition, though. (The theories attributed to Munajjim in 2001 had been to al-Kindi in 1980!) In any case, the versions that I have seen are those existing in 2015, as indicated by the date of access; they may change at a later date, and (n.d.) may then become misleading.

Thanks again, Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

You are welcome, Hucbald. There is of course no such thing as "the right" reference format on Wiklipedia—each article must be taken on its own, with consistency to be achieved within whatever format that has been established for it. In the present case, this is "shortened footnote" (SFN) style, broadly speaking, with a host of "dialect" features. Only a few editors are as deranged as I am about fiddling with reference formats. The important thing is that complete references are provided, as you have done. Reformatting is a mechanical process.

I agree that the two Owen Wright articles should not be grouped as a single reference. They can easily be separated, but there is the question of how specific to be about the "Arab music" article, which currently points to one particular subsection. If there will be further citations, pointing perhaps to other sections of the article, then the reference should be broadened, and the specifics be moved to the inline citation, in the place where a page number would normally go. However, since the entire "Arab music" article is the work of three authors, it might be necessary to cite it in that way, unless only the sections signed by Wright are to be cited, and can easily be separated from the rest.

The date problem is inherent in the Grove Online reference. This is problematic for most online sources, which are dynamic by nature and may tomorrow say something quite different from what they say today. The access date is of course a very different thing from the date of publication, but "n.d." is only misleading in the inline citation. The link to the list of sources should make all this clear. However, I would suggest in the present case that it would be better to cite the paper version with the firm date of 2001. Grove Online usually indicates when modifications have been made, though we should beware of assuming that the online version is identical, simply because there is no annotation. Another problem with citing Grove Online is that it actually uses multiple sources (New Grove 2, Grove Opera, Grove American Music, Grove Popular Music, etc.), and it is entirely possible to cite conflicting data from this alleged "single" source. This is why I avoid citing Grove Online, except in cases where a date for a revision or the creation of a new article is actually supplied. I propose to make this change in the citations to Owen Wright's articles. Please let me know if you disagree.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:54, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Jerome, I'll be very thankful if you can change the references to the NG Online into references to the 2001 paper edition. I don't have it (I only have the first edition) and I am too lazy to go to a library (there is none very near here).

As to quoting the "Arab music" as a whole, I hardly can imagine now how things will develop; but references to other sections of the article will most likely become necessary: if you can check and quote page numbers for the present references, it may be best to foresee that other sections will later have to be quoted as well.

May I deduce from your relative silence about the recent development of the Music Theory article that you somehow agree? I think that it should mainly link to other, more specialized articles, even if this in turn may later involve reviewing the linked ones. In view of this, it would seem that starting from a list of theorists, as I did for medieval Arabic theory, is a reasonable way of doing. I intend to add a few words concerning each of these theorists (and possibly to add a few other ones). Needless to say, this will become much more difficult when we start with medieval Latin theory: the number of theorists that might deserve a mention is enormous (I am thinking of the list of sources published by the Lexicon Musicum Latinum Medii Aevi in 1992).

I am thinking of a second main section of the article, which may be called, say, "Topics of theory", and which may deal with Melody, Musical Systems, Modality/Tonality, Rhythm and Meter, Counterpoint, Harmony, Form, Analysis, Semiotics, Tuning and temperament, Notation, etc. This too could be conceived mainly as a commented list of links to other articles, but of course, as in the first section, the choice of the links will be determinant. I would for a while leave the present section on the "Fundamentals of music" as it is, but I trust that it eventually must disappear, when that on Topics will be advanced enough.

I mention all this for several reasons:

— I'd very much like you (and others) to help filling in the (sub-)sections in your domains of competence.

— If you do so, keep in mind that topics may have to be left for the second section. The balance will be difficult to achieve, for instance when dealing with medieval Western theorists who dealt with modes, rhythm, forms and genres, etc.

— I also wonder at what point I should propose the organization of the "Topics" section, first perhaps in the Talk page of the article, then with empty subsections in the article itself.

— And, of course, if you view the future of this project otherwise, tell me in time, before we too begin to quarrel about this.

Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 18:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I have already provisionally changed the Owen Wright references. Now that they are separated, it will be a simple task to broaden the second one to include the other two authors. Page citations are not usual in the case of dictionary and encyclopedia entries, though for longer articles the sections and subsections can be cited (as is already the case with your citation of the "Arab music" article). I do not personally own a copy of the 2001 NG, but can easily consult it in my institution's library.

I think there is very little likelihood that we will quarrel over any of this. I agree (broadly) with your proposals. My only concern at this point is that an already too-long article may increase in size, and I think you share this concern. I especially agree that the "Topics" should subsume "Fundamentals", and it is this area in particular where brevity can easily be achieved, with links to main articles covering the topics in more detail. It does seem to me that an article introducing music theory should not dwell too much on the history of theory. This, too, could become a separate article, or even several separate articles (Medieval theory, Tonal theory, etc.). After all, the main focus here should be on explaining succinctly what music theory is, for the benefit of the uninitiated reader, who may not welcome a torrent of information. I think all of this should be discussed first on the article's Talk page, though I fear from recent experience that we may not have as many participants in the discussion as we might like.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Jerome, after having pondered whether I would move this discussion to the talk page of the Music Theory article, I think that my question at this point remains too abstract from a truly general discussion. You write:

"It does seem to me that an article introducing music theory should not dwell too much on the history of theory."

But is music theory not always, inherently closely linked to, deeply rooted in history? How could we (especially in the 21st century) deal with, say, harmony (and its theory), unless as a historical phenomenon? I suspect that there is a current American trend that reifies theory, viewing it as an object sui generis, while I think that it can only consist in a contemplation of another objet, music itself. Even so, I hardly could figure out how one could conceive of theory as an ahistoric phenomenon. Take Schenkerian theory, one that some might consider intemporal; but Schenker died in 1935: in many ways, he was a 19th-century man; and is theory in any case concerns a music (tonal music) of the past! Failing to consider him a historical figure is, I think, the worst service that one can render to his theory. Wuddyathing? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Of course you are right, a theory of music always assumes music of a particular time and place, though some theorists (Schenker and Riemann being prominent examples, though I am thinking also of Ernest Ansermet) adopted the stance that their theories defined what music always had been and always would be, any other claimants to the title "music" being either vestigial, incompetent, or even fraudulent. What I had in mind, though, is the reader who comes to this article wanting to know at a very basic level what theory is, and how it relates to the music that he hears or plays. This reader undoubtedly has a limited experience of music, probably assuming that keyboards and guitars represent the basis of all music making, that all music follows rules of tonal harmony (whatever on earth that might be), is in 4/4 time, etc. There is certainly a place in the general "Music theory" article to gently disabuse such a reader of these assumptions, but at the same time we should beware of overwhelming him with explanations that are so far beyond his expectations that he will deem them "irrelevant" and "academic." (I have seen this complaint leveled at many Wikipedia music-theory articles, over and over again.) Discussion of particular ancient, medieval, oriental, or atonal theories should in my opinion be kept to an outline (with links to more detailed articles), and delayed until the more general aspects of theory have been presented. This is just my opinion, of course.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:06, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I suspect that in order to claim that their theories are universal, theorists have to pretend that they rely on "nature", on laws of acoustics, of human perception, etc. Ansermet may have done that, Riemann perhaps, but Schenker hardly. Despite all that has been said about Schenker's Klang der Natur, he himself stressed from the start that it could not explain the minor mode (see Klang). And his contempt for ancient music contradicts any claim that music is eternal. But let's leave that aside for now.

One solution for the article to address guitarists may be to begin with the topics of theory and to leave history to a second (or later) section. Nobody will have to read the article to the end, and it might nevertheless be as complete as is reasonable in an Encyclopedy which, I trust, is vulgarizing (that is explaining complex matters in simple terms) but not meant for the geeks. That would allow us also to sooner come to a satisfying, albeit incomplete article, while I admit that beginning with Arabic theory may not be what guitarists expect (although they should, their instruments has a lot to do with the oud). — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:59, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, quite. The oud is, as everybody knows, derived from the electric guitar ;-).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 09:06, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

To-do list suggestion

Jerry, I'm sure you've got enough on your Wiki–plate to overwhelm you, but you might want to stick Kirnberger temperament at the far back end of your to-do list. It has a great deal of what appears to my amateur eyes to be reasonably valuable material, but which is burdened with editorializing (a chunk of the worst of which I've removed) and virtually no sources. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 04:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, goody: "virtually no sources". Sounds right up my alley. I don't know how this one has stayed below my radar. I am sharpening my scimitar.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:50, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

The term "ancohemitonic"

Hi there,

I'm submitting a research proposal for a PhD scholarship, and its basically a compositional study of all 42 of the seven-note modes (excluding ones with consecutive semitones), as they are seen in the table on this page.

These scales are described as "ancohemitonic". I was wondering - do you know whose labelling this is? I can't find this term mentioned anywhere else on the internet.

If this is the widely accepted term for these types of scale, then it would be very helpful to me, as I can refer to the scales I wish to study in my PhD as heptatonic "ancohemitonic" modes.

Many thanks for your help,

Tom — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.39.47 (talk) 01:55, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I am as mystified as you are about this term. I recall that someone tried to remove that section a couple of years ago, and it was restored by the original editor. I thought perhaps a source was added at that time, but if there is none there now, it should be marked as needing a citation. Perhaps that will produce the desired result.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:05, 28 December 2015 (UTC)