User talk:Jacob Carpenter

Orfeo (Rossi)

Hi Jacob Carpenter. I have edited a message at the talk page of the article Orfeo (Rossi), which refers to your recent edits there.--Jeanambr (talk) 18:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sant'Alessio

Hi Jacob Carpenter. I have edited a message at the talk page of the article Sant'Alessio, which refers to your recent edits there.--Jeanambr (talk) 18:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia

Hi Jacob Carpenter, I had decided not to get any more involved in disputes in the English Wikipedia as I can't master the language well enough and I regard myself as a guest there. Nevertheless, since you seem to be a newcomer, I should like to give some information you can use as far and as much as you like. When starting editing Wikipedia, one is supposed to take a look at the Five Pillars, that is at the fundamental principles of conduct, which alone can allow so many people to strictly cooperate in the creation of a great encyclopedia. In my opinion, the most important Pillar is the second one, according to which Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV): all articles must strive for verifiable accuracy, citing reliable, authoritative sources. No original research is allowed, which means an editor may not express personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions, but ought only to report statements by reliable sources (stating in footnotes which sources they are). The difference seems clear. For instance, saying that Alexius's mother and Curtius in Stefano Landi's Sant'Alessio are soprano parts because they suit you best as a singer, and that's the result of your personal investigation with Doctor Murata, is undoubtedly a personal research; one gives instead a reliable source by writing the whole cast's voice types are reported "according to the clefs used in the period printed score" accessible online through a link given in the article; or else by writing (article Orfeo (Rossi)), that, "unless otherwise stated in footnotes, voice types are reported according to Murata and Le magazine de l'opéra baroque" (where Murata means her article on Rossi's Orfeo in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera). Even though a great many Wikipedia articles are written without literally complying with these principles, I believe one ought never to remove sourced information from an article. If one's sources state differently, one might instead add further information to give account of the discrepancies between sources.

Few other words about the name spelling. Italian and French orthography during the 17th and 18th centuries was extremely unstable. Thus, a name was written and probably even pronounced differently depending on where and by whom it was done, or even just on the case. For instance, castrato Francesco Bilanzoni was so called when singing Vivaldi's operas in Venice, but his surname turned into Bilancioni when he performed in L'Olimpiade by Pergolesi (btw often named Pergolese) in Rome. And other sources also give the singer's surname as Bilancione or Bilanzone. Given this situation, trying to normalize naming spelling according to some more or less arbitrary pattern is likely to be a mere waste of time. Moreover, changing a name from a sourced 'Marc'Antonio Sportonio' to un unsourced 'Marco Antonio Sportoni' appears to be an open violation of the Second Pillar, and it conflicts with major encyclopedia sources, such as, for instance, the article Sportonio, Marc’Antonio (1631 - 1696), soprano castrato, composer by Lorenzo Bianconi and Roberto Pagano in Grove Music Online; and the articles Sportonio, Marc'Antonio, by Lorenzo Bianconi, and Orfeo (ii) by Margaret Murata in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera (respectively, IV, p. 487, and III, p. 743).

I hope the above information may be helpful for you in your future working in Wikipedia, and you can also contact some of the administrators for further directions (you can find a list here). My very best wishes.--Jeanambr (talk) 11:28, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BTW I'm not a woman!

I, too, left a message about your edit to Il Sant'Alessio, with quick mentions on Il Palazzo Incantato, overro La Guerriera Amante and L'Orfeo. Jacob Carpenter (talk) 21:02, 20 December 2016 (UTC)Jacob Carpenter[reply]

Dear Mister Ambr(Amber? Ambroise? Ambrozi?).

Please forgive me for assuming you to be a woman, sir! It is just that the name is so muddied in my own tongue, more females are called 'Jean' sans the French background. You must be a Frenchman or Franco-Italian scholar.

I understand where you are coming from about clefs, spellings, et cetera as a former boy soprano (range to A6), then baritone-based sopranist (range to E6). It is mostly personal research, but I stand by my changes.

All sources should be looked at, then, if one or more is definitely wrong, throw it away. Otherwise, I feel more data can be gathered. Should there be a crossroads, the alternative information needs to get noted.

Grove Music Online, [Doctor] Margaret Murata's articles and books, and such are solid proofs. They surely must count on the Barberini family operas. And yes, I notice many differences in spelling castrati' names.

Angelo Feretti, Domenico del Pane, Marco Pasqualini, Marco Sportoni(o)--one could go on and on and on! I believe you and me will have to agree to disagree on our conflicting accounts.

Yes, I am new to Wikipedia's controls. They are hard for me to comprehend electronically, so you can guess my frustrations not on paper. Thank you, sir, for offering directions.

A belated Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, sir. May God bless you and your family!

Yours faithfully,

Jacob Carpenter (talk) 21:55, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Jacob, according to the English Wikipedia usage I have moved here above your latest edit from my talk page in order to make comprehension easier. On repeating that my difficulties with understanding and expressing myself in English induce me not to take part any longer in this debate, I would just like to eventually point out to you two actual facts.
1. In the article Sant'Alessio there now exists a footnote (note no 5) which states voice types are reported "according to the clefs used in the period printed score". This statement has become false following your edits.
2. In the article Orfeo (Rossi) there now exist two footnotes (no 2 and 3) which read respectively: "Unless otherwise stated in footnotes, voice types are reported according to Murata and Le magazine de l'opéra baroque," and "Unless otherwise stated in footnotes, the names of the performers are drawn from Le magazine de l'opéra baroque". Both statements have also become false following your edits, as both Murata's article on Rossi's Orfeo in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera and the linked French source refer the roles of Aristeo, Imeneo and Sospetto to the soprano voice.

I can only add that the few sources I chanced to read on the matter agree the very vast majority of Baroque soprano parts before Handel's times are confortably written in what we could style in modern terms, 'mezzosoprano' tessituras: Sant'Alessio and Marfisa from Il palazzo incantato are cited as two of the very few exceptions. Notwithstanding, as Wikipedia editors we are obliged to faithfully report the statements made by the reliable sources we are citing, and we are not allowed to depart, founding on our personal opinions or researches, from the widely prevailing musicological tendency, that is to call 'soprano parts', 'bass parts' and so on, the parts that were originally notated by composers in the soprano clef, in the bass clef, and so on.

Very glad to have met you in Wikipedia, I wish you a very happy new year.--Jeanambr (talk) 10:18, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]