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Archive 1Archive 2

A welcome from Sango123

Hello, JRawle, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay. We're glad to have you in our community! Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Though we all make goofy mistakes, here is what Wikipedia is not. If you have any questions or concerns, don't hesitate to see the help pages or add a question to the village pump. The Community Portal can also be very useful.

Happy Wiki-ing!

-- Sango123 16:07, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you need help with anything or simply wish to say hello. :)

Research skills

Thanks, JRawle. :) Regards, Sango123 (talk) 16:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

You Beat Me to It!

I wanted to be the guy who wrote that Tony Blair said he would turn down a peerage. well done Mindstar 00:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

thanks for the kind message.

Well i'm glad i didn't made you upset or something like that, i won't ask you personal questions or questions-that-can-be-answered--if-i-look-wikipedia-first, okay.

Anyway, i know this may be a personal question, but i just want to know you a bit, okay:

1. What's your real name?

2.How long have you been on wiki?

3. Whats your intrest in wiki?

that is all, till next time Pece Kocovski 08:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

33rd_Regiment_of_Foot

Could you please take a look at this page User:Emann15 has somehow put his user name at the top of the page and it can't be deleted, as it is not visible when you go into edit it out. I noticed you just corrected an error in the Liu Yip page where he made an error, take a look at his user contribution list. 86.2.136.146 14:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Firefox template

I replaced {{User firefox}} with {{User browser:Firefox}} on your user page, and it renders correctly now. The templates should probably be left alone at this moment in case a user is in the process of making a series of edits. Thanks, Sango123 (talk) 22:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

RE: Tony Banks/life peers

Hi Jonathan, Do you know why we style Lords" as "Barons"? Is a Baron a Lord? A Baroness a Lady (as in Maggie Thatcher)? Just seems odd. I'm not disagreeing with you and I won't move the article again, but I'm just wondering.

Cheers, --Gary Kirk (talk) 19:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Just been looking at the Tony Banks disambig page and that says "later Lord Stratford" so that should be changed, also later in the actual article I think it says Lord elsewhere. Will sort that tomorrow if you haven't already.

Cheers. --Gary Kirk (talk) 21:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

New year talk

Hey there Jrawle, how have you been, haven't heard from you in a while, how's the new year been to you?

see you soon Pece Kocovski 07:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

where are you?

Pece Kocovski 05:07, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Lord Owen

"of the City of Plymouth" is correct in this case. The County is normally required, but cities are an exception in that, since the "in the County of X" bit is really the Peerage equivalent of disambiguation, and as cities are uniquely named, it's not necessary when it is explicitly mentioned that a city is involved. It seems to be entirely up to the peer concerned — we have, for instance, "Baroness Wilcox, of Plymouth in the County of Devon" (1996) and "Baroness Fookes, of Plymouth in the County of Devon" (1997), both after Lord Owen's peerage, and there are many examples of variations between "in the City of A" and "of A in the County of A" (the former is generally the more popular). There are even some examples of "of the City of A in the County of B", which seems rather excessive to me (and "Baron Calverley, of the City of Bradford in the West Riding of the County of York" is just taking the mickey). Proteus (Talk) 14:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

hi

Shadin 15:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Re: Gender-neutral pronouns

Yeah, life would be a great deal simpler if that were the case. An unembellished notice should be enough for now, but if people continue to refer to me as a he, an annoying, bright userbox ({{User female}} or {{User pronoun:she}}) will find its way onto my page— perhaps enlarged. :) Thanks for the suggestion! Regards, Sango123 (talk) 06:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Baden Powell

I know. A lot of work had already gone into the Robert Baden-Powell link (fixing redirects and such and BTW I wasn't the first one that moved it there) and then Proteus moved it back without even participating in the discussion at all. Proteus was way out of line there and I wasn't going to sit idly by. Now, he's moved it back again. Rlevse 19:09, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Psst

I'm trying to build support for this nomination in its last few days. Please check out this page. Pass it along. Nudge nudge. -- evrik 20:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you - Assist on Error

Thank you for the input regarding the error and its correlation to "something within". Appreciate it and any other advice and observations along the way! -- Esgenoopetitj-talk

Dafydd Elis-Thomas

I'm not the user who reverted this, but I wondered if you have a source other than http://www.dodonline.co.uk for the fact that his name has two Elises in it (as I think he calls himself Dafydd Elis-Thomas which is the article's title). —Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 02:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the explanation and references. I suspected you were probably right; although it does seem strange that he didn't remove his middle name when he added it to his surname.
Welsh names are no different from other Occidental names, although traditionally people would have probably been called "given name ap/ferch [son/daughter of] parent's name (usually father's)". This happened in Scotland ("McFoo") and England ("Fooson") too, though.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 14:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure he refers to himself as Dafydd not Elis but I'm not sure. I spoke to him once, but I don't think he introduced himself. Google reveals various semi-official letters starting "Dear Dafydd" (including ex-First Minister of Wales, Alun Michael's letter of resignation) and I cannot find any references to "Elis" except within his full name.
I suspect he chose Elis-Thomas for stylistic (it sounds like a credible surname were as Dafydd is clearly a first name*) and disambiguation (Dafydd Thomas is a common name) purposes.
[*However Elis is actually a Welshified version of Ηλιας (Latin transcription: Elias), the Greek version of the Hebrew name, Eliyyáhu (or Elijah), so it is a given name. There is also a Greek place, Elis, but I don't think he is named after there.]
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 18:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
At risk of beating a dead horse (or something), I agree about the `unique title' thing.
BTW, another source suggests that Elis is derived from Elias but appeared in Middle English before Welsh [1]. More interestingly, another says that Elis and Ellis come from Elisud (Welsh for `kind') when used as given names but from the Greek Elias when used as surnames (so they can be both) [2]
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 19:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Problems with IP-addressed vandal

Hi, JRawle. Thanks for the notice; I've warned both with a {{verror2}}. If they continue, please issue a {{test4}} or {{verror4}} warning message (the third-level warning can be skipped since you already mentioned blocking) and post an alert on Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. You'll usually get the quickest response there, as multiple admins keep that page on their watchlists. Thanks! Regards, Sango123 (e) 20:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

== (Chris) Judge Smith ==

As you may see, he calls himself Judge Smith, without the Chris, on all his records except the first (DemocraZy) album with demo's. He has decided to drop the Chris decades ago. There is a mailing list in yahoo groups about him, called Judge_Smith (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Judge_Smith). Also, there's judgesmithnews@lol-records.com . In fact, he dislikes the name Chris.

I won't change it anymore... it's not that important, I guess, if everyone searching for him will end up on the right page. But still I think he'd like to be listed under Judge Smith, not Chris Judge Smith. Thanks for the help and the tips! (I don't mean that ironically!)--Mark in wiki 13:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The Black Year?

I wold just like to ask you whats wrong with The Black Year article.--Rhydd Meddwl 20:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks I'll have a look now.:-)

Re: Finding the nth edit

First off, congratulations on reaching your 500 edits milestone! :) As for determining the nth edit, I do the following:

  • Check the edit counter (yours) every now and then.
  • Once the counter is close to n, refresh the page more often until n edits are reached.
  • View the most recent edit of my contributions.

This may not point to the correct edit, as I disregard deleted ones, but I'm currently not aware of more accurate methods. Hope this helps! Regards, Sango123 (e) 00:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Disclaimed peers

Yes, children of disclaimed peers keep their courtesy titles. There isn't really any reason behind it, it's just the way the Act specified things should happen. Proteus (Talk) 10:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

No, we don't do that (unless someone is summoned by a Writ in Acceleration, which very rarely happens with Viscountcies and should be stated in the succession box anyway). (Interestingly, even some of those who should definitely know better don't seem to know what a courtesy title is — Lord Bath states in his autobiography that he became 11th Viscount Weymouth when his father succeeded as 6th Marquess, a count which is only possible if the Baths have been numbering even heirs apparent who never succeeded, as even now he's 7th Marquess Lord Bath is still only 9th Viscount Weymouth.) Proteus (Talk) 10:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Matt Battaglia

Thanks for the redo - tickled the minor edit by accident. It's a luxury to be able to create a new page so I'm sometimes caught off guard. USA Noles1984 17:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Subpages of articles

I've deleted British Summer Time/Reverse after adding the subpage's contents into the main article (complete with a nifty hide/show navigation bar). Thanks for being alert. :) Good night! Sango123 (e) 01:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Countess of Swinton

Thanks for letting me know about the redirects, I don't know why I missed those. However, I don't think we have an official policy on it yet, but it would make sense to me to have the suo jure titles of peeresses in the article name as they hold this in their own right, despite holding a higher courtesy title. I'm sure she's known as the Countess of Swinton at home, but as you wrote yourself, she's Baroness Masham in the Lords as this is her own title. I appreciate why you'd want to have her countly title in the namespace because it doesn't seem to make sense without a numeral for her own peerage but other articles fall in line with this anyway: Sarah Hogg, Baroness Hogg (and Viscountess Hailsham) and Frances Davidson, Baroness Northchurch (and Viscountess Davidson, although neither titles are included in the namespace). Other hereditary peereses include Elizabeth Campbell, 1st Baroness Hamilton (who had been Duchess of Hamilton and Argyll) and Henrietta Stanley, 4th Baroness Strange (who was Countess of Anglesey). I'd hate to bicker over this with you and it'd be interesting to see what others think if you refer to WP:Peerage. Thanks Craigy (talk) 19:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be worth having a discussion about it. Since 1958, I don't think there have been many women who have a married title and hold their own and I can only find Susan, Sarah and Frances. However, the same situation could arise with hereditary peeresses who have held a higher title by marriage so maybe you could start a discussion on WP:Peerage? For the record, a Google search brings up "Baroness Masham Of Ilton" - 35,200 (Lady Masham of Ilton - 123) and "Countess of Swinton" - 100 ("Lady Swinton" - 437). Thanks Craigy (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, poor fella. We can rule out putting Dowager Countess in the namespace though because attempts of doing that in the past seem to have been reverted [3], although it's something I'd like to see with current dowager peeresses, but that's a different issue that can be brought up later I suppose. Craigy (talk) 20:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

By analogy with male peers, policy would seem to be to use the highest title unless there's a very good reason not to (as there is with Lord Castlereagh, for instance). I don't buy the "she sits in the Lords as the Lady Masham of Ilton so that's what we should use" line at all — Lord Snowdon sits in the Lords as the Lord Armstrong-Jones, but no one's suggesting moving his article to that title. Proteus (Talk) 10:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Testing, and dates

You wrote "The message about testing is a standard template that editors can use when someone has altered an article in an inappropriate way. We usually give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they were just trying something out rather than deliberately vandalising a page. If you weren't testing anything, what were you doing?" Actually, I was editing, as I have been doing for a couple of years, anonymously. Since the message doesn't tell me what I was doing that was deemed to be inappropriate, unfortunately I can't do anything about it. As for dates, my editing reflected no particular preference: I was just making them consistent within the aricle. Birdhurst 14:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: How to find pages I created?

Hi, JRawle. This lists the individual articles you have contributed to (all namespaces). Clicking the (hist) link next to each article name shows you the article history and, of course, who created it. I don't know of a simpler way to keep track of new pages each user creates, but this tool does help. Regards, Sango123 (e) 03:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The most appropriate warning template is probably {{test2del}}, which addresses the removal of text or valid links from articles. All warning templates may be found here. Thanks, Sango123 (e) 13:34, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the tips

Haphar 10:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

RE:Extinct Baronies category

Hi again JRawle - sorry about the slight delay in replying. Yes, my main intention of creating the category was to replace the extinct baronies already in Category:Baronies but I kinda lost interest in it and didn't add all of them. I've been watching the Category:Female life peers discussion of CFD with interest but I haven't intervened because I wasn't too bothered if it was kept or not - it was merely just to give the female peers their own category (without removing them from Category:Life peers though), seeing as women from other walks of life and professions have their own category. Btw, how's the stand on suo jure peeresses going? Thanks Craigy (talk) 23:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: Edit counts

Hi, JRawle. Nathanrdotcom answered your question here while I was offline, but here's some additional information about the lag: "After structural changes to the Wikimedia server installation to make it run faster, en.wikipedia.org data is no longer being replicated to the toolserver, so new edits are not showing up" (WikiProject edit counters). As for an alternative, try Interiot's Tool 2. Thanks, Sango123 (e) 03:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

UK Theme

Hello, I was wondering if you know a user who would be able to upload the UK Theme single cover into the "single" area of the page, as now that it's being linked by the BBC I would imagine it means they have given it their blessing. I'm not really that sure what copyright tag to use I'm afraid. Rob 12:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Rob 13:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention on Baidu Baike

Thanks for your attention on Baidu Baike. And just for demonstration of a kind of sheer paranoia: "六四" (Chinese character number: 6 and 4. A common acronym of the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989) is blocked, too. (European number "64" is not) AirBa 03:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

...attemps from some domain...? Are you saying that from some parts of the world, it doesn't block people who search for "democracy", etc?

That's correct. Although I got blocked everytime, but someone from China told us that the blockage is not done by Baidu website, but by the Great Firewall of China, and searching the terms with the Firewall bypassed would lead to an editing page.AirBa 09:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The little vandal

Hey, a few weeks ago I found the little fuckin pussy who edited under my username the Dora the explorer article and got me blocked. I also found out his other usernames:Horse Fucker and your papa. I would permanantly block him. P.S Sorry for the language but I'm kinda ticked off. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blopij (talk • contribs) 16:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

STOP AND LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I need to know how me and my friend (screenname Martin Van Buren)can change our passwords so horse fucker and his buddies can stop vandising in our names. P.S. Me and Martin Van Buren are seperate people, stop accusing us of sockpuppetry and can you delete horse fucker as a member?Blopij 16:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!!

I got your message and reported the vandal to the administrators. His usernames are your papa and horse fucker. He and his friends (who don't have Wikipedia accounts) have been misusing Wikipedia. Sorry for my overreacting, but I was ticked.bob 16:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Courtesy titles

Yes, children of courtesy peers are treated exactly as if their parent was a substantive peer (including "Lord" for the sons of courtesy Marquesses and "Lady" for the daughters of courtesy Marquesses and Earls). Proteus (Talk) 16:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

An end to User: Martin Van Buren...

You will be happy to know that because of my action to taking this user and his sockpuppets to Wikipedia: Requests for CheckUser and suspected sockpuppets. I presented enough evidence and now the case is closed and you know longer have to hear of this nonsense! Cheers, Mahogany

Re:Vandal 195.93.21.102

I see you deleted that vandalism report for 195.93.21.102 (talk • contribs • WHOIS • block user • block log) with the comment that he/she had probably "moved on". On the contrary, this IP address has been used consistently to vandalise the page on British Summer Time by inserting hoax information. This is becoming quite a nuisance for those editors who are watching the page. This is not a random act of vandalism, it's calculated and deliberate, and it always comes from that IP. Is there no way that an IP can be prevented from editing a particular page? I'd bet money on the British Summer Time article being vandalised again from that IP. JRawle (Talk) 20:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

That IP is an AOL proxy server. AOL IP's are shared by many users at once, and one user can receive many different IPs. I think the way the IP allocation works means that the same page gets the same IP, but the same user on a different page might get a different IP. So basically AOL IPs are only blocked for short periods if there is vandalism going on right now. In that case the user had moved on, hence my lack of block.
It is possible to request page protection (in this case semi-protection) to stop all IPs and newly registered users from editing a page. However there is no way to stop just one particular IP from editing a particular page.
Sorry I can't be of more help, believe me I'd be happy to block if it wasn't for all the collateral damage it would cause . The best thing to do is to keep the page on your watchlist (I'll add it to mine as well) and revert vandalism as you see it, requesting a block or page protection if it’s under heavy attack. Petros471 08:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If it happens again, I'll request that the page is protected from unregistered users for a couple of weeks. Hopefully the vandal might give up then. JRawle (Talk) 11:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Good plan. I'll be happy to apply the protection if I'm online when it's needed. Cheers, Petros471 11:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
And it's done. Petros471 17:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeh, that is a bug (IMHO)- one that can be worked around by adding the sprotect template after applying the protection. I try and do that, but with lots of tabs open at once I sometimes submit in the wrong order... Petros471 17:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford

Thanks for providing that cite! - Ali-oops✍ 20:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The (Dowager) Countess of Swinton

Proper form is that if a peer dies and someone succeeds to the title, the peer's spouse is referred to as the Dowager "Title of X," yes? In any event, as the article and the titling thereof makes clear, she has not used the Swinton title in any form for quite some time, preferring to be referred to be her life barony. I merely made the change I did to indicate her strictly de jure title, since it's clear what she uses in practice. Wally 17:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Problem with Template:LUL line

Hi JRawle,

I had Ed g2s' talk page on my watch list because I had a conversation with him and forgot to remove it when finished. Well, I'm not replying there because I thought he could be annoyed: the issue is not directly with the template; the point is that the template relies in turn on other templates to choose the color for representing the kind of station. In this case there's no template named "Visitor Service colour". I don't like this implementation choice, but that's how it works. If you are absolutely sure that "Visitor Service" is an allowed category you can create a template named "Visitor Service colour" which just has a 6-digits colour code (without '#'), such as a1b2c3. You can look at this for an example: {{Piccadilly Line colour}}; it is used, for instance, in King's Cross St. Pancras tube station. —Gennaro Prota•Talk 14:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

LUL lines

When you type in the line name - it uses it to look up the link and colour, so the templates {{linename link}} and {{line name colour}} are assumed to exists. Click on the red links and save a hex colour for the line (like {{Bakerloo Line colour}}). ed g2s • talk 14:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ed g2s,
could you please move all the "linename link" and "linename colour" templates in subpages of {{LUL line}}? That would make them easier to find and maintain and would avoid polluting the global template namespace (as an alternative you could have a (not so) big #switch statement or two; whichever you prefer :)). —Gennaro Prota•Talk 14:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry!!!!

I just got a message about some comment, I did not leave a message personaly,I think it was the person next to me (a person who thinks this site is cool cause you can edit it and thinks of it as some sort of MySpace)who must have done that while I got up for 20 some seconds to get a book. I am most apologetic and will try to make sure it never happens again.Filmfreak 16:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Jeffreys image

Thanks. I've asked that it be deleted. I'll stick to my own work from now on.Ted 20:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion

Hello! I noticed that you have been a contributor to articles on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion. You may be interested in checking out a new WikiProject - WikiProject Anglicanism. Please consider signing up and participating in this collaborative effort to improve and expand Anglican-related articles! Cheers! Fishhead64 23:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm probably not the right person to work on articles about religion... I think I was reverting persistent vandalism to the article on Geoffrey Fisher, which of course I continue to keep an eye on! JRawle (Talk) 13:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

FRAS

My recollection was that you usually had to be post-doc to get your FRAS. Us scabby students had to be content with junior membership. Of course this did have the advantage of being much cheaper. Bob aka Linuxlad 13:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your quotation from the RAS regs, which would seem to suggest that Jun Mem. RAS is no more. Hmm, perhaps I'll rejoin! Linuxlad

Question about edit count

I noticed you left a comment on Sango123's talk page in March 2006 regarding how to find a user's (ultimately, your own) nth edit. I found such a tool many months ago but did not bookmark it, and I am having trouble finding it now. I assume you found your answer because you have links now on your user page. Can you lead me to it? Thanks. — Super-Magician (talk • contribs • count) ★ 20:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I was not asking how to find my edit count, but instead how I can find my nth edit. Does Interiot's javascript let me do that? Unfortunately, I can't use it because I don't use FireFox. — Super-Magician (talk • contribs • count) ★ 21:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
So, there's really no easy way of finding my nth edit if I made it a long time ago (i.e. I have 2000+ edits now, and I want to find my 500th and 1000th edits)? — Super-Magician (talk • contribs • count) ★ 12:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Peerages

Thanks for your message about peerages, there is a dispute going on at the moment on a few of the peer pages. If you would like to contribute to the pages, I would suggest you use the article talk page, as this is where it will be seen by the majority of editors interested in the article. I believe the first names should not be used on Wikipedia, from my personal knowledge of the Peerage, however as I am not an editor on this article, I have no place in mediating this matter any further. The only reason I got involved was that there was a revert war going on.

If you would like to help out, it might be wise to get the Mediation Cabal involved. Good luck! Abcdefghijklm 11:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

George Porter

Well, it's good you were able go get the article to the decent state. Fortunately there was no need to delete the page altogether. Conscious 12:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Richard Harries

Hello. My source is yesterday's Daily Telegraph, where they always list new peers titles (with teritorial designation), and it says Baron Pentregarth. As you rightly say the London Gazette Online is always rather slow to update, but I'll try there at some point. The Daily Telegraph usually does list straight from the London Gazette, so it should be right. --Berks105 09:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've just got todays Daily Telegraph, and he's in it again! It looks like they misprinted it yesterday and its title is, "Baron Harries of Pentregarth, of Pentregarth, of Ceinewydd in the County of Dyfed", which of course backs up HofL website. It seems odd to have 'of Pentregarth, of Ceinewydd', so I'm guessing Pentregarth must be a very small place. And its still not on London Gazette online.

Your probably right. I'll change it to that affect on List of Life Peerages page, and check when its on London Gazette. Thanks --Berks105 13:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

"Noble" peers

Hi, I noticed your throwaway comment in the edit summary on Helene Hayman, Baroness Hayman. Most importantly, the stub template might be called uk-noble-stub, but it actually says "this article about a peer or noble..." Perhaps "uk-peer-stub" would be more appropriate.

But anyway, life peers are every bit as noble as any other sort of peer. They have exactly the same privileges, and are considered equal to any other barons in the order of precidence. JRawle (Talk) 19:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Mixing up medieval barons and modern party hacks makes little sense. Why not separate out the life peers altogether? 62.31.55.223 19:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
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