User talk:Hiyournameis/Archive 1

Vandalism

Please avoid vandalizing the Wikipedia pages of Hindu community for whatever reasons you have. If you believe that the quoted source aren't authentic or the contributions aren't reflecting the perspective of the various stakeholders then please mention the same but let's not indulge in unnecessary edit war. It is not good to hold such views against any community since it is against the basic human dignity. Requesting you to please let me know the reason behind such targeted attempts to deny the real life incidents, there seems to be a deep prejudice against Hindus. ClaraFisher (talk) 19:13, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

@ClaraFisher, " Requesting you to please let me know the reason behind such targeted attempts to deny the real-life incidents, there seems to be a deep prejudice against Hindus". Your comment falls under WP: UNCIVIL which is against Wikipedia: PG. So how do I know that you are arguing in good faith? Also, you argue that you want to make Wikipedia an inclusive place, so tell me how should the condemnation of an LGBTQ interpretation of the Hindu god Kali by a Liberal MP be considered inclusive? If you are willing to answer my questions then I will answer yours. Hiyournameis (talk) 22:15, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't want to trigger a war and would like to have a civilized discussion hence would completely reject your accusation that I'm breaching Wikipedia policies.

I'm glad that now you've the point to argue on certain opinions of the Hindu community but you should have done it earlier and should have avoided vandalizing the Wikipedia pages of the community.

Coming to your question on Goddess Kali poster, it was the Hindu community that had objected to the display of their God in a manner which they think is offensive. It doesn't imply that Hindu community is not acceptable of LGBTQ community but only an objection in the inappropriate portrayal of their Goddess. Respect to all the communities is basic human rights including the religious communities. The organizers of the Kali Film themselves issued an apology for causing offense to the community and that matter is resolved between both the parties. We are outsiders to the controversy and can't twist the narrative to suit us which has already been resolved. Hope you understand and would politely request you to be more inclusive and multicultural. ClaraFisher (talk) 14:30, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

@ClaraFisher, I will break it down into three points:

1. Let me point you to this line "personal attacks, including racial, ethnic, sexual, disability-related, gender-related and religious slurs, and derogatory references to groups such as social classes or nationalities" The line that I cited to your response would fall under WP: UNCIVIL since you making it personal without knowing the background of the editor that you are talking to. You should understand that South Asian regions such as India have been diverse longer than Canada. Its regions have different viewpoints on the topic Hinduism and whether to support or oppose Hindutva.
2. That is fine. However, you accused me of "hate-crime denial" which I do not deny the incidents since it happens to every group in Canada throughout its history. I do take issue with the framing of the title and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight with the choice of content. I would like why is there a lack of 1985 Air India bombing or the Komagata Maru incident on the page; shouldn't we look at a broad historical perspective instead of WP:Recentism. Also, why is it mostly relying on the Indian media as its sources instead of including Canadian ones? The reason why I bring this up is that CBC, who noted in 2020 that 119 people of Southeast Asians were victims of hate crimes, reported that it become a talking point for India's right-learning government which could not come up with the data.[1] Also, the right-leaning National Post pointed out a Hindu person, who suggested that if south Asians are facing attacks it mostly because of their skin colour not because of their religion (which he argue happens rarely)[2] These are both Canadian outlets and I would suggest coming up with statistics instead anecdotal incidents when trying to prove your argument. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a bulletin point for geopolitical issues.
3. A couple of points since I don't think Arya's condemnation has been resolved by "both parties". Chandra Arya, who is a politician, does not equate to the Hindu community that is a form of gatekeeping. Arya was condemned "by more than a hundred academics, activists and members of community organizations signing a letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau".[3] While a Hindu professor from Canada pointed out that " Hinduism has historically allowed for a considerable amount of flexibility on the images of deities and has been inclusive of various representations". [4] Also isn't the person that directed the film, someone of the Hindu faith? Are they not representative of the Hindu community in Canada? So, I am wondering how Arya's comments are not dogwhisling to homophobes? There have always been LGBTQ reinterpretations of gods and goddesses, whether people like it or not. Also, Canada has repealed Blasphemy law so Manimekalai is within her Charter Rights to interpret her goddesses anyways she like without facing prosecution. If you don't like that I am pointing out the intolerance within Arya condemnation then I am trying to be inclusive of other viewpoints within the Hindu community of Canada.

Hiyournameis (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, @ClaraFisher, Canada has a legal system, and anytime there is a case of criminal activity, it must be investigated by the police. Why was there no evidence of "anti-Hindu" bias in the police investigations of the majority of these vandalism cases? For instance, I discovered a source that stated, "There was no evidence of vandalism to the permanent sign or any park structure," in reference to the Shri Bhagavad Gita Park vandalism reported on the page. "The permanent sign is still waiting for the lettering to be applied, and it was a temporary park sign used in the park naming ceremony," Peel Police tweeted." [5] You've got to understand that Canada is a secular country not one that make it decision based on religion, meaning it there is an importance Burden of proof (law) in the Canadian legal system. I won't deny that these incidents occurred, but I will point out that in the majority of the cases listed, why are they referred to as "anti-Indian" and not "anti-Hindu"? Attack on the Hindu Community, not Attack on the Indian Community, is how the title is phrased. As I mentioned India is not the gatekeeper on Hinduism. Hiyournameis (talk) 10:54, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

1. Your allegation that I have made personal remarks against you is completely unsubstantiated done with the motive to shield your racist, xenophobic and Hinduphobic views against Hindu community. Your attempt to bring unconnected topics into this discussion is a tactic on which I'm definitely not going to fall prey to, would not respond to that particular section of comment.

2. I agree with you that we should also look at historical discrimination against Hindus in Canada and I'm already working on a write-up for it, it will take time since I'll have to research taking into account authentic sources. Secondly, I have to rely on those sources which provide authentic information but since Canadian media isn't interested in covering the hate-crimes against Hindus I will have to look at other media which is doing so. It only points to the apathy of Canadian media towards the discrimination faced by Hindu community. There could be psychological reasons of Canadian media behind not reporting these crimes because they don't want the world to know the grave discrimination against certain communities that has started seeping into the Canadian society and the inability of authorities to prevent such crimes. I will reject your attempt to link Hindu Canadians with the Indian politics. It is a very disturbing & dangerous way to approach communities based on their supposed country of origin. Moreover, Indian politics can't be used as an excuse for the hate-crimes against Hindu community. It puts them under a radar of racist suspicion of dual-national loyalty which is unacceptable in a diverse multiculturalism country like Canada. It's as discriminatory as linking Chinese community with Communist Chinese politics and Muslim communities with Theocratic Arab politics.

3. Chandra Arya has only voiced out concerns of Hindu community which found the depiction of their Goddess as offensive. The organizers of the event issued an apology and that resolved the dispute peacefully. I don't think that outsiders like you or me should dictate the beliefs of a religious community, a multi-religious country like Canada ensures freedom of religion and respect for the religious communities as well.

4. There can't be any denial that vandalism of Bhagvad Gita Park had happened, the Mayor Patrick Brown had himself confirmed this. The intensity of vandalism is in question not the vandalism itself. Secondly, India is definitely not the gatekeeper of Hinduism but since an overwhelmingly large number of Hindus live in India it is natural mistake people do by interchangeable use of India and Hindu.

I would suggest you to be more receptive of Hindu community. They're just like any normal human beings and have emotions, these hate-crimes disturb them and they deserve to be heard and treated with basic human dignity and respect. You should interact with more Hindu people which will help in broadening your understanding of the community and tampering down your prejudices. In a pluralistic society, everyone should be respected. Until there is no recognition of hate crimes, there will be no solution to it and the discrimination against Hindus will keep increasing at the same alarming pace. ClaraFisher (talk) 16:08, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

@ClaraFisher, I don't make generalizations because I believe in rationality and evidence. I love changeling the limits of people. However, I am getting the feeling that you don't. I also believe that you might not be familiar with Canada. Luckily, I love educating outsiders.

1. Was the word Hindutva, the prompt to call me "Hinduphobic"? How are Wikipedia formatting standards and rules, "Hinduphobic"?
2. Did you say Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is not reliable, the same CBC source that you used for Hindu Prayer incident in New Brunswick? Did you suggest that Canadian media, authorities, government (the one that Arya is part of)and members of the Hindu Community in Canada are conspiring to deny hate crimes against Hindus in Canada? Do you understand that geopolitical refers to the tension between the Indian and Canadian governments, not dual nationality? Do you also understand that I was not the one who used the Indian government as an excuse but the sources that I cited? Also, would you have cared about the treatment of Hindus in Canada if the Indian Government didn't issue a tweet that was widely covered by the Indian media?
3. Again, Manimekalai never infringe on anyone's freedom of religion since the Supreme Court of India let her go freely. In addition, are you trying to be Hinduphobic? Like, I can't have an opinion of my religion? Like how is a god holding an LGBT flag offensive? Also, do you have proof that Arya voiced his concern out of the Hindu Community and tried to make Hindu people look like bigots? Are you saying that the names "Parasram", "Jangam", and "Nagra", who signed the letter not considered part of the Hindu community in Canada, when they condemn Arya's tweet [6]?
4. Did you just equate sign replacing with vandalism, the "action involving deliberate destruction of or damage to public or private property."? Did you say the mayor of Brampton has more legal authority than the Peel Police Force, the institution that is responsible for determining what is and isn't a crime in the Peel Region?

I would suggest that you be more understanding of the Hindu community in Canada. We do condemn vandalism incidents, particularly against the temples, which is considered to be a hate crime in Canada, but we also believe in the rule of law. If the police confirm that the perpetrator is charged with a hate crime then it is Wikipedia: Notability. A proof is a proof. Also, I find it amusing the "interact with more Hindu people which will help in broadening your understanding of the community and tampering down your prejudices" suggestion when this is probably the first time when you are interacting with someone from the community in Canada. I know my community well and have interacted with many people of different faiths. Also if you are surprised by these comments; it is just that we aren't a monolith, we do have different viewpoints that you seem to disregard. I just don't why you do not see the peoples in my source as not Hindu. Pluralism also allows for the diversity of viewpoints, you know. Thus, I welcome you to Wikipedia and learn and maybe visit Canada if haven't been there, Canada is currently going through its struggles but it is not as scary as the Indian media lets you believe. Hiyournameis (talk) 23:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

@ClaraFisher. One last thing, did you ever click on my articles that are cited in my page? Also, I suspect that you may have taken things out of context. Take your argument " Indian politics can't be used as an excuse for the hate-crimes against Hindu community", I never where I argued that. I just pointed out that the Indian government made a statement but they could not back it up with facts or the reason why it keeps occurring. I pointed out the number and possible reasoning. If have an issue with my two sources, please provide your own sources. Thus, I suggest take a look at [7] when trying to write a section, it formatted properly and does not rely on recent events but statistics.

Hiyournameis (talk) 02:28, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

1. No, the word that you're using doesn't amount to Hinduphobia but it is indeed an attempt of racist suspicion on Hindu community based on the politics of their supposed country of origin. Please do remember that Hindus in Canada haven't come only from India, they have origins in many country such as Pakistan, Bangalore, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Fiji, Mauritius and East African countries. They're a diverse group and Indian politics shouldn't be used as a weapon to continue prejudiced views against them.

2. I didn't say the Canadian sources aren't reliable, I only said that these sources are biased in their reporting of hate crimes against Hindus. I used the CBC article because it was well covered by them which points to the fact that I'm ready to cite Canadian sources provided they give a complete picture of the hate crimes. You want to use the geopolitics as an excuse to undermine the hateful attacks on a community which is a deeply disturbing trend. Canada is engaged in geopolitical disputes with many countries but that shouldn't translate into the hatred against the people of those countries especially when they're now a part of vibrant multicultural society of Canada.

3. As I again said that please don't use Indian politics as an excuse for hateful attacks on Hindus. It were the Canadian Hindus who found the poster offensive which was recognized by the event organizers and issued an apology. You or me have no right to dictate a community about their religious beliefs.

4. So do you imply that Patrick Brown was incorrect and nothing happened? As I said before, denial of such hate crimes is not good for any society and Canada is a law-based vibrant society which should find solutions to reduce such incidents.

5. I would definitely like to visit Canada to broaden my understanding of the people of Canada. I always interact with diverse group of people so that I can understand them better and appreciate the diversity. I don't think any society is a monolith and Canada is no exception to that. I'm also aware of the fact that despite such attacks, the Canadian lawmakers have stood with Hindu community and condemned these incidents which is a great effort. If I were to paint Canadian people as "bad", I would have only written about the attacks and no the statements of lawmakers who condemned such attacks which I certainly didn't do so that I can present a perspective that there's an overwhelming majority of people in Canada who despise these incidents.

6. I have read all the links which you have attached in your comments, your assumption that I'm not reading them is incorrect. I'm not providing only the perspective of Indian government but also the Canadian lawmakers. And I don't think that Indian government's concerns on the safety of community is going to change the situation on ground, it is the Canadian authorities who need to ensure peace and safety of the people living in Canada which I'm sure they're doing honestly and it's an appreciable thing. ClaraFisher (talk) 13:40, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Again @ClaraFisher, I was going to point out that issue is whether your edits followed Manual of Style. I advocated for a rewrite of the section and renaming the title but you are resisting my attempts. Otherwise, If I called you out, it's because I noticed that your edit history was similar to that of another Wikipedia editor (AnoopTJoseph).

1. Bangalore is a city, not a country. Also, the quote, "Indian politics shouldn't be used as a weapon to continue prejudiced views against them." True, but I didn't do that, I pointed to a quote by Chinnaiah Jangam, an associate professor of history at Carleton University who specializes in South Asia argued that "The statement is meant to tell citizens living in Western nations that dissent against the Indian government will be labelled as anti-Indian and anti-Hindu".[8] A Hindu Canadian made that comment, do you think he is being prejudiced against them?
2. "You want to use geopolitics as an excuse to undermine the hateful attacks on a community which is a deeply disturbing trend." No, I just pointed out how the Indian government was undermining their cause because it could not cite any statistics. They also could not cite the reasoning behind the attacks. Also, if I use geopolitics, it's a reference to the fact that it is a sensitive issue even among the Hindu community in Canada. I will point to this quote "Followers of the religion are harshly persecuted in the Muslim-majority countries of south Asia — Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan — and “brown” Canadians with roots in that part of the world can face racism, xenophobia or Islamophobia because of the colour of their skin, says Nikhil Mandalaparthy of the U.S.-based Hindus for Human Rights. But routinely face discrimination or hatred in Canada specifically because of their Hindu religion? Not so much, he says." [9]. Are you familiar with the phrase that every crime has a motive?
3. My citation of the Supreme Court of India's dismissal of complaints from Manimekalai [10] is the point you don't know what I am complaining about, its Arya's comment. If you have sources that Arya complained about because of Canadian Hindus please provide them, otherwise, you are making broad generalizations. Nowhere around his tweet, he makes any acknowledgment of the Hindu Community in Canada. Also do not dictate a community based on your view of Hinduism. Also, be considerate and inclusive of the LGBTQ community, they have a right to express their sexuality in any way they want. Religion cannot be an excuse to hide behind implicit homophobia.
4. You called the routine replacement of a sign a hate crime. Are you suggesting that the Peel Police is denying that it ever happened? Patrick Brown does not even call it a hate crime. Chandra Arya deleted his tweet about the incident. Why is that?
5. Whenever the law is broken, Canadian lawmakers are supposed to condemn it that is their job. However, that is not the main point. I have an issue with the fact that you ignored Hindu voices in Canada. You do not see their perspective as being Hindu. Why is that?
6. " it is the Canadian authorities who need to ensure peace and safety of the people living in Canada which I'm sure they're doing honestly and it's an appreciable thing" What a contradictory statement, you previously implied that the authorities were denying the crimes but now you are okay with how they are looking into. Hiyournameis (talk) 16:12, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@ClaraFisher, I took at look at one of your sources that you cited [11] and it called Brampton a province. Are sure that sources that you have cited are reliable sources? Another thing I noticed is that in one of my sources, it makes not mention that the Sikhs has condemn it but is not included. Thus, if you don't want to raise any suspicions on the Sikhs community, I would suggest that you make note of that. Hiyournameis (talk) 19:09, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Layton

If and when he says "no", rather than being rumored to say no, move him to the declined list. Until then he's potential. To not have him listed at all is absurd given the number of media reports naming him as possible and the fact his name is included in polling - and he's leading the poll. 208.98.222.117 (talk) 13:50, 19 February 2023 (UTC)