User talk:Gonder

Little context in Pobladores

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Good work

"Los Angeles Pobladores" is a fine article on an interesting topic. Thanks for contributing it to the project. I saw you mention the re-enactments. A free-use photograph of one of them would be a great addition to the article. Is there any related topic on which you'd be willing to contribute or collaborate? Perhaps on a locality, an event, or an historical figure? Cheers, ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:54, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Question on Header

Hi Gonder,

First, I really liked the article you started a year ago. In a moment of nostalgia (I no longer live in Los Angeles), I created a Wikipedia table—for the Pueblo de Los Angeles article—of the original settlers using information from the original padrón and the census commissioned by the Count of Revillagigedo that I gathered in bits and pieces from one site and another. I was originally interested in describing the institutions of the alcalde and cabildo, which are often misunderstood. I knew, from various sources that the alcaldes came from varied racial backgrounds. In fact, this is a big theme of Antonio Ríos-Bustamante's Los Ángeles, pueblo y región, 1781-1850: Continuidad y adaptación en la periferia del norte mexicano*; that the Hispanic frontier, whether it was California or Sonora, provided people of mixed-race background the opportunity to become prominent people in their (new) communities. And indeed, this is what happened in Los Angeles. (And I assume in San José, San Diego, etc., as well.)

To make that point, I was creating the settlers table. In the past I found it interesting what people chose to leave out, which is what you also noticed. Some people leave out race. Others, including the plaques that went up in the Plaza, anachronistically follow Anglo tradition and leave out the women's surnames. Well, I was about to upload it, when I decided to do a more thorough search to make sure I was not duplicating anyone, and that's when I ran across your article.

So, secondly, I hope you don't mind the changes I did to the article, but I tried to Wikify it, as they say. I do have one question, I was wondering why you moved the heading "Race and Social Mobility"?

My reason for it was two fold. One, I like making use of Wikipedia's hierarchical headings (two ==, three ===, etc.) Second, I thought that the article could benefit from some separation of the discussion of the past and the controversy of the present, however intertwined the two are. So I created the heading "Race and Social Mobility" for the section discussing the past, because I was returning to one of Ríos-Bustamante's main points: that in California, these people had a chance to become part of the so-called gente de razón—and actual term from the period that roughly means the "civilized people." (He also has a corollary point, that many California natives, by interacting and intermarrying with the settlers also became part of the gente de razón, just as they had done in Sonora, etc. For a different analysis, see Rosaura Sánchez, Telling Identities: the Californio Testimonies. University of Minnesota Press, 1995.)

For the discussion of the present I created the "Commemoration and Controversy" heading. (I originally was going to make it "Contemporary Commemoration and Controversy," but that probably was too much alliteration… although I like alliteration.)

Anyway, as it stands, having "Race and Social Mobility" as a heading with no text but just a link to The Los Pobladores doesn't make sense. That article doesn't deal with race; it elides it, which is just what you—and I—were avoiding. So I would like to move it back, but I wanted to run it by you first. I could also just come up with something different, if you really don't like it.

Best,TriniMuñoz (talk) 00:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
*Ríos-Bustamante's book is in Spanish, but I know that a facsimile of his Engish-language dissertation, on which it's based, is at the Wilshire Branch Library, but for some reason it doesn't appear on the catalogue. (This was my childhood library.)

Hi Trini!

I am so happy you found this article on Los Pobladores and that it has inspired some nostalgia and additional scholarly research/writing for you. Thank you for all your contributions to this article including not only "Wikifying" it but also the additional information, spellings and chart.

By the way your assumption about the mixed-race founders of other California cities is correct and is verifiable at sources such as the Journal of San Diego History. It's Winter 1973 edition written by Professor Manuel Patricio Servin is one resource that documents this fact. He also explores the concept of gente de razón-- see the Journal of San Diego History .

It is interesting to note that today here in Los Angeles the Pobladores walk is in progress as I write this. I was not physically able to participate this year but I have been monitoring how the local morning news broadcasts have been telling the story. So far, from what I have seen, none of the reports have mentioned the fact that the Pobladores were of mixed-race.

Regarding the "Race and Social Mobility" heading, it just did not look right on the page at the top with no text except for the link so that is the only reason I moved it to the bottom, just for aesthetic purposes. I was thinking of adding some of the Servin research there. But if you have additional ideas and research do feel free to add it. I don't mind at all.

Again, I appreciate your diligence in updating, editing and adding great research to this topic.

javascript:insertTagsHRHclg (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)