User talk:Fylindfotberserk/Archives/2018/February

Re

Awadhiya is not a caste. The article as edited by you says "The Mandal Commission designated the Awadhiya of Bihar as Other Backward Class in the Indian system of positive discrimination."

The list of Other Backward Class from Bihar is here: http://www.ncbc.nic.in/user_panel/GazetteResolution.aspx?Value=mPICjsL1aLt5iq8E5sHcb9aZw5ZegRBySCH7TfTamcrBZvQJkfhn9Q57N54VaSrW

First, kindly remove the claim that Awadhiya belongs to Other Backward Classes.

The above link is that of Government's database. The book that you are (mis)quoting is bogus. The government's data should prevail over a self-proclaimed author with no credentials that you are misquoting repeatedly.

Hajjams are muslims. There is no Awadhiya who is a Hindu and Hajjam. Your book says that Awadhiyas are hajjams (barbers). I am a jain who uses the surname Awadhiya. Have jains ever worked as barbers? You need to read some history bro.

Awadhiyas can be Muslims too.

How your article would be relevant to the Awadhiyas who never had any roots in Bihar? The article as edited by me is neutral, and is all encompassing.

Kindly remove the claim that it is OBC. I will furnish the remaining proofs that Awadhiya can belong to any religion very soon.

I am a jain who use the surname Awadhiya.

With regards, Mehul — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mehulshah123 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Difference between Awadhiya Kurmi and Awadhiya Hajjam

You misquoted two references. One you used to state that Awadhiya is Kurmi, and another you misused to state that they are OBC. In reality, the first one referred to the landholder zamindars of Bihar, who have been referred to as dwij (i.e. equivalent to brahmin) due to their high status. The second one referred to barbers who are hajjams.

Both the Awadhiyas are different as is stated in the link below.

The following link states that both are different:

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=uEwut4Ax-3QC&pg=PA170&dq=awadhiya&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj13IK6sKXZAhUDQo8KHXz7BZo4HhDoAQhJMAY#v=onepage&q=awadhiya&f=false

Your source states that Awadhiya Hajjam is OBC, how can you write in your article that Awadhiya Kurmi is OBC?

In my opinion, you are misusing your privileges as administrator and are trying to block all attempts of any correction due to ego issues.

Kindly reinstate the article to the form edited by me. It is all inclusive and does not hurt the sentiments of any particular section of people. Besides, it is true.

Regards, Mehul — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mehulshah123 (talk • contribs) 12:21, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Re

You have said:

The Mandal Commission designated the Awadhiya of Bihar as Other Backward Class in the Indian system of positive discrimination. is supported by this 1 which lists Awadhiya has been considered an OBC Caste from Bihar

This link: http://www.ncbc.nic.in/user_panel/GazetteResolution.aspx?Value=mPICjsL1aLt5iq8E5sHcb9aZw5ZegRBySCH7TfTamcrBZvQJkfhn9Q57N54VaSrW

states the list of OBC from Bihar.

IMHO, my source, being the government's list, must prevail.

The government's record does not find Awadhiya as an OBC from Bihar, then are you or your self proclaimed expert (whose book you have been citing) mightier than the government?

In other words, if you say that Awadhiya is OBC in Bihar, then insert the same in the list of OBC and let them get the benefits!

Your actions are undemocratic and one sided. You are not a rational person. You are unaffected by reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mehulshah123 (talk • contribs) 12:30, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

India national cricket team

I have put back the {{citation needed}} tag back tp the article. Sorry about what happened.  Anchorvale ^{T@lk | Contributions}  08:43, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

That's totally OK Anchorvale
Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:50, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks!  Anchorvale ^{T@lk | Contributions}  08:51, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Nisha Rawal

This article mentions Nisha Rawal has been married to Karan Mehra from 2012 to present (the article was published in 2017) and this article from 2015 mentions Karan Mehra's wife is a Gujarati. So it's a reasonable reference that she is Gujarati. A145029 (talk) 22:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

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Ditto for Nisha Rawal also. None of the sources explicitly say that she Nisha Rawal is Gujarati. If we draw a conclusion that Nisha Rawal is Gujarati from these two only sources, then it becomes an original research as explained above. So please find a source which explicitly mentions her ethnicity. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:54, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Ok, but since it does explicitly say that her husband says that she is Gujarati, I'm adding that: according to her husband his wife is Gujarati — Preceding unsigned comment added by A145029 (talk • contribs) 17:37, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

No, I already explained that since both are different sources, it would be an Original Search if you combine both to conclude Nisha Rawal is Gujarati. That is the reason why a lot of ethnicity categories of different Indian people got removed since sources were not explicit. The First source can only be kept in this page not the second one.

but since it does explicitly say that her husband says that she is Gujarati, I'm adding that: according to her husband his wife is Gujarati - Doesn't prove that Karan Mehra in the second link whose wife is a Gujarati is the same Karan Mehra who is Nisha Rawal's husband. Check below :

To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented...

as you can see, neither of your sources directly supports her being a Gujarati. So kindly look for an proper source. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Is it ok to add she speaks Gujarati based on this source:

I am taking this to the "dispute resolution noticeboard" A145029 (talk) 19:32, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Lakhanis

I added two links about Lakhanis' ethnicity
The first link mentions Sultan Ali Lakhani's birthplace. However, his name was spelled Lakhanai, but that is a typo, not different person. The book is available in snippets, and the snippet which follows the one that is referenced is . Those two snippets together mention he graduated from Karachi University with a Honour's degree in economics, and that he heads the Lakson Group of Companies. This verifies the information is indeed about Sultan Ali Lakhani.
The second link points out some of Gujaratis contributions to Pakistan, one of which is "Colgate-Palmolive in Pakistan is run by the Lakhani Memons" . Although it does not mention Sultan Ali Lakhani specifically, it mentions his family, because his family runs Colgate-Palmolive in Pakistan. A145029 (talk) 22:09, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

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Let me clarify the points.

• The first link[1] mentions Sultan Ali Lakhani's birthplace. However, his name was spelled Lakhanai, but that is a typo, not different person. - Just because you or me think it to be a typo doesn't prove that it is one. For that matter, it can be argued that Mr. Lakhanai of your source is a different person altogether. The birth place and birth date can only be added to the article when it can be thoroughly verified that Mr. Lakhanai is indeed Mr. Sultan Ali Lakhani. So it will be better to find a proper source.
• ... he graduated from Karachi University with a Honour's degree in economics, and that he heads the Lakson Group of Companies. - The fact that Sultan Ali Lakhani graduated from Karachi University with a Honour's degree in economics is covered by this reliable source [[1]].

These two links of yours don't mention anything about their ethnicity which seems to be your primary concern.

• The second link[3] points out some of Gujaratis contributions to Pakistan, one of which is "Colgate-Palmolive in Pakistan is run by the Lakhani Memons" . Although it does not mention Sultan Ali Lakhani specifically, it mentions his family, because his family runs Colgate-Palmolive in Pakistan. - That is the point. Sultan Ali Lakhani is not mentioned in the article. Moreover it seems the author there calls everyone a Gujarati based on geographical origin/birth rather than their ethnic origin. I doubt the credibility of the author Aakar Patel or this article. It is obvious that he is not a Professional Writer working with LiveMint and that the article is posted under Opinions section. Personally I find him quite biased. He bashes every community whom he thinks lack entrepreneurial skills. Check the snapshot below taken from Wikipedia:Verifiability

Several newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host columns on their web sites that they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process.[7] If a news organization publishes an opinion piece in a blog, attribute the statement to the writer (e.g. "Jane Smith wrote..."). Never use as sources the blog comments that are left by readers. For personal or group blogs that are not reliable sources, see Self-published sources below.

Even then, the source doesn't mention the name of Sultan or Iqbal Ali Lakhani.

Your edit is just a mix-match of multiple sources to represent something which has not been explicitly mentioned in any of the sources. Thus it is a clear case of WP:ORIGINAL. Here is a section from the lead from Wikipedia:No original research.

Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented... The prohibition against OR means that all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source, even if not actually attributed.[1] The verifiability policy says that an inline citation to a reliable source must be provided for all quotations, and for anything challenged or likely to be challenged—but a source must exist even for material that is never challenged.

I suggest you provide sources which explicitly mention their ethnicity, birth place and birth date similar to how you did in e.g. Sanjay Leela Bhansali's page. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:45, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Ok here's something else I found. The page 91 is titled Sultan Ali Lakhani.. Also an excerpt from the book reads as "Pakistan. Parliament. Senate. SENATOR SULTAN ALI LAKHANI Mr. Sultan AN Lakhanai was born on July 24, 1948 in Gondia, India. After earning an Honour's degree in Economics from the Karachi University, he undertook business and indutry as profession. He is presently Advisor, Lakson Group of Companies with its Head Office in Karachi. He is keenly interested in the international and diplomatic affairs and has visited a number of countries round the globe since 1973. He is a ..." and you can see this excerpt in the first result here:. So all this together makes it pretty convincing its a typo and i think there should be some tolerance for typos in Wikipedia.

For the second source, Livemint is pretty well regulated being one of the biggest newspapers in India. Also, I agree we cannot add that "Sultan Ali Lakhani originates from Gujarat" since it is not mentioned in the source but we can add "Sultan Ali Lakhani hails from the Lakhani family which originates from Gujarat". (There is only one Lakhani family that owned Colgate-Palmolive in Pakistan). — Preceding unsigned comment added by A145029 (talk • contribs) 17:49, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

• So all this together makes it pretty convincing its a typo and i think there should be some tolerance for typos in Wikipedia. - May be a typo. But I don't think google searches can be allowed. As far as the Snippets are concerned, there are people in Wikipedia I know who'd straight away reject them. Lakhani's University and Academic infos are covered by another source. The only concern is his birth place and date which seems are supported by your sources only. Let me check.
• Livemint is pretty well regulated being one of the biggest newspapers in India. Although Livemint's credibility is out of context here, check this one Wikipedia:Verifiability

Several newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host columns on their web sites that they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process.[7] If a news organization publishes an opinion piece in a blog, attribute the statement to the writer (e.g. "Jane Smith wrote..."). Never use as sources the blog comments that are left by readers. For personal or group blogs that are not reliable sources, see Self-published sources below.

Aakar Patel's article here is obviously an opinion piece as I explained before. He obviously is not an employee of Livemint. He has his own business it seems from the article. His was a personal blog which can't be called reliable. Even then, the source itself doesn't explicitly mention anything about the subject being a Gujarati.

• Also, I agree we cannot add that "Sultan Ali Lakhani originates from Gujarat" since it is not mentioned in the source but we can add "Sultan Ali Lakhani hails from the Lakhani family which originates from Gujarat". (There is only one Lakhani family that owned Colgate-Palmolive in Pakistan) - Again Original Search here. Linking multiple sources into a new meaning. Kindly find a better source.

Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I am taking this to the "dispute resolution noticeboard" A145029 (talk) 19:32, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

This dispute has been closed at DRN by a different volunteer, but I want to add to that: Several of the sources being offered here are legislative directories — directories of members — published by Parliament House, a government agency. As such, these are public records which cannot be used as reliable sources for living persons, see this section of the Biographies of Living Persons policy which says, "Do not use public records that include personal details..." Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC) PS: I forgot to mention that the lakson.com website cannot be used as a reliable source about living individuals. That website is a self-published source and this other section of the Biographies of Living Persons policy prohibits SPS's from being used for information about living persons unless they are "written or published by the subject of the article." Lakson may be owned or managed by certain individuals, but it, not those individuals, publish the website. It cannot, therefore, be used as a reliable source for information about those individuals. — TransporterMan (TALK) 21:49, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

References

@TransporterMan: Thanks for resolving the matter sir. It seems there are a lot of users here in Wikipedia who wouldn't abide by the rules when it comes to pushing their own biased agenda. And in the case of South Asia related topics, it's ethnicity related most of the time. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:48, 20 February 2018 (UTC)