User talk:FredTheBarCat

Hello, FredTheBarCat, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages you might find helpful:

Introduction
The five pillars of Wikipedia
How to edit a page
How to write a great article
Manual of Style
Also feel free to make test edits in the sandbox.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, please see our help pages, and if you can't find what you are looking for there, please feel free to place "{{helpme}}" on your talk page and someone will drop by to help. --Jeremy (blah blah) 04:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome and thanks for the help!

I noticed the improvements to the List of cocktails article you worked on. Good job! That page holds a special meaning for me, because it is what got me hooked on editing Wikipedia. From December 2006 through February 2007, I worked on that list, and that led to working on all the related articles--a major cleanup project--and the effects are still present. I've been noticing that the list was in need of some tender-loving-maintenance again, and then you pitched in. Thanks so much! If you haven't already found it and joined, I would encourage you to join the WikiProject Mixed Drinks and/or WikiProject Bartending. WP:MIX is a somewhat active group of people who help maintain the articles in that section of Wikipedia. WP:BAR is smaller and less active, and it focuses on helping to coordinate activities between Wikipedia and the Wikibooks Bartending Guide. There are no membership requirements or quotas… just help out when you can and with whatever interests you. It does, however, provide a good place to coordinate activities and discuss changes--especially any that might be controversial. We have a lot of history, and there are several conventions we have adopted over time. That doesn't mean things can't be changed (quite the contrary), but sometimes there's no point in reinventing things or doing things that didn't work in the past. You can also always leave me a comment on my talk page or send me an e-mail if you have any questions about Wikipedia. Again, welcome. I hope you enjoy the experience here. --Willscrlt (→“¡¿Talk?!”) 11:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bartending and drinks

Hi again. First, there are a few policies and guidelines that you should be aware of (because you sound like you might be close to crossing some of them--at least how some people here interpret them).

No original research - Basically, you have to be able to cite your references for everything you submit to Wikipedia. Things like memorization techniques that you are taught verbally in class can't really be cited (thus you can't add them here), but if it is in a text book or from a reliable source online, then you can. Likewise, drink recipes need to be referenced back to some reliable source, too. WP:MIX (originally, but it's been lax lately) standardized on the IBA Official drink recipe as the primary recipe (even though we were told by several bartenders that it's not how they make it). The reason is that IBA is international, their recipes are published online making it easy to verify, and it is a recognized standard. If there is no IBA recipe, then we look back to historical sources, like well-known bartending guides. If that fails (like for a modern drink), we use Drinkboy.com or another reputable source. The more we depart from an established standard, the more the recipes tend to be edited and reverted (see WP:3RR).
Wikipedia is not a cookbook or bartending guide, thus any article in which the drink recipe (or, worse, recipes) take up more than about 40% of the article often get merged or outright deleted. We need historical and other encyclopedic information, not a collection of recipes. WP:BAR is the solution to that problem. The Bartending Guide is an online book that contains all the recipes that Wikipedia doesn't allow. Unfortunately, it's become the dumping ground for any marginal article Wikipedia doesn't want related to alcohol, making it sort of a diamond in the rough. WP:BAR is trying to sort that mess out and coordinate the activities between the two.
Whenever possible, convert recipes into something more encyclopedic. Take a look at some of the best articles listed at WP:MIX for examples of how to write the articles in the least offensive way. (Yes, Wikipedia is funny about what it likes and dislikes, but it's better to comply than deal with deletion discussions).
The List of cocktails is supposed to be a list, not delving too deeply into process or history. Save that for the Wikibooks Bartending Guide or an article. Also, we try to use the generic alcohol (Orange-flavored liqueur instead of Triple Sec or Grand Marnier) whenever possible. It reduces the amount of edit-warring that goes on, and since the average home bartender usually only has one or the other, it really doesn't help them that much (and the average person can't tell much difference anyway between the varieties). Same goes with coffee-flavored, etc. Unless, or course, there is a compelling reason (like the name is part of the drink or it's the only common variety of an alcohol) to use the brand name.

You probably noticed that I just wiped out some changes you made on List of cocktails. We were in an edit conflict, meaning we were both editing the page at the same time. I overwrote your changes since mine affected the entire article. Yours were in just one section on Amaretto. I was going to go back and put your changes in, but they seemed like they would be better in the Amaretto article itself... too much detail for the list.

Also, don't forget to reference the List of liqueurs. That's the place to list varieties of liqueurs and link to them if there is an article written for them.

The page at WP:MIX has several things listed that need doing. Feel free to jump in and help with anything that strikes your fancy. Same thing over at Wikibooks. That area is arguably a better training ground for cutting your wiki-teeth at, though you are likely to pick up some "bad" habits. Wikibooks has different rules as to what is acceptable and not, moves at a much more lackadaisical pace, and is a lot quieter (fewer members). Switching back to en.wiki (the English Wikipedia), everything will move so much more fast-paced, and you will find yourself tripping across guidelines and policies that you don't have to worry about at en.books. It's not a bad thing, but there is definitely a difference between the editing styles and community feel. I don't like either one better or worse, because they are just a bit different, but it's all good. :-) --Willscrlt (→“¡¿Talk?!”) 00:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As to the last part of your comments... there's no formalized process to making these edits. Within the WikiProject, we tend to communicate with each other on the talk page about proposed changes, especially if they are going to be widespread and/or dramatic. If it is only concerning a single article or list, then the talk page for that article or list is the best place to discuss it (and add a note to WP:MIXTALK, too). Then wait about a week. If nobody objects, then go ahead and do it. If there are objections, work with the other people who chimed in to come up with a solution through consensus, and then go from there based on the outcome of that discussion. That's pretty much the way that things are done around here. You don't have to discuss before making changes (and if the changes don't substantially alter the current status quo, you probably don't need to discuss it), but it is considered polite. Plus, as I mentioned before, we have tried some things other ways before settling into what you see here. We might have some good insight into why we do things the way we do or why it didn't work doing it some other way. Or there might be a policy or guideline that you are unaware of that says not to do something. The more people involved in the discussion, the less likely it is that someone will end up having to undo the work you did. And less frustrating than seeing your work undone. :-) Believe me, I've watched a fair amount of work (days) get undone because I didn't understand how things worked here. Wikipedia is bureaucratic in some ways (a lot of ways?), but it still manages to turn out a pretty good product anyway. I hope I'm not scaring you off. It's very rewarding and fun. I'm just trying to help you avoid the pitfalls I encountered when I started out here. And being a bartending student, you are likely to be enthusiastic about the topic, and being new to Wikipedia, you are likely to dive in and do a lot of work, and potentially spin your wheels a bit. Just take it easy and work collaboratively (that way, there are several people who can watch for problems and back the shared views if something comes up for discussion), and you should have a great time here. :-) --Willscrlt (→“¡¿Talk?!”) 01:31, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello

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I have been working on some back end stuff and have not had a chance to say good job on the mixed drinks lists. As Will has explained we have a large collection of alcohol-related projects, all of which may interest you:

You can check out their Portals, pages that provide information, links and other reader-centric information.

Each of these projects covers the various aspects of alcoholic beverages in all of their glory, and would love your help. If you have any questions I can help or point you to some one who may be able to. --Jeremy (blah blah) 04:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]