User talk:Flavius vanillus

Greetings Flavius

Welcome to Wikipedia. The NPOV article is a good one to have a quick look through. I suggest you have a good look through some of those references on NLP also. Seems that you know what you are talking about. Don't worry if someone labels you a sockpuppet. If you are a neutral editor on an article fraught with fervent believers, it is almost guaranteed to happen.

Best regards HeadleyHeadleyDown 12:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

question about NLP trainer

It does sound like you were duped with your NLP training. I know that there are some dodgy trainers due to the lack of quality controls and exagerated claims. This bastardization of NLP really annoys me.

Everyone that has undertaken NLP training has been duped, not just me. NLP itself is a patchwork bastard so bastardisation is really only a matter of quantity rather quality. flavius 01:26, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion it takes 200-300 days training and daily practise for years to become proficient in NLP. Some trainers claim that someone can become a practitioner in 20 days, or even less.

You can't become proficient at NLP because it doesn't work. NLP is a granfalloon (i.e. a proud and meaningless association of human beings). "Doing NLP" is a sort of game that you play with other members of the granfalloon. You are distinguished as proficient by the more senior members of the granfalloon when you can reproduce a meaningless ritual. In this manner, NLP is not unlike Freemasonry. An example of this is the notion of "nested loops". There is no evidence that using nested loops produces more persuasive or engaging presentations. Further, if you study the transcripts of persuasive and engaging presentations and speeches (eg. Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Noam Chomsky, highly-rated university lecturers, courtroom presentations by skilled barristers (attorneys)) no nested loops can be found. People with no prior exposure to NLP -- without any preconceptions and not in the company of NLPers during the presentation that invariably "ooh and ahh" as they play the game (you can witness this at most NLP seminars) -- typically assess a speaker who uses nested loops as rambling, tangential, scattered and sometimes tedious. flavius 01:26, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Can I ask, who were you trained in NLP by? how much did you spend? how many days did you participate in NLP training? How much time did you spent practising the patterns at home and in the world? I don't want to know any of your personally identifiable details just enough to give me a good idea of what went on, who were the trainers and organisations involved, etc. --Comaze 12:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I won't tell you all of that because I don't want to give you the opportunity to distract yourself with the idea that my dissatisfaction stems entirely from my inadequate training and because I don't want to risk defaming anyone (even if the chances of a civil suit a slim). I received training from a well-known North American trainer that worships at the feet of Bandler. Additiobnally, I've studied numerous videotapes, CDs and books from Bandler, Hall/Bodenhammer, Kenrick Cleveland and Tad James. flavius 01:26, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, you raise some very good questions here and on the talk page, especially the questions about epistemology and philosophy. I need to check my sources before I respond. regards, --Comaze 08:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

NLP is a useful tool if you know how to use it. Some havent learned how to use it or had ineffective teachers and thus blaming it. Before you learn NLP, check if people who have attended a seminar are getting result before signing up to that trainer. I know price can vary, 1 could look really cheap, I recommend paying someone well who is getting results. If at all learn from the creator of it or his well known disciples. Feb 23, 2006(JM)

Can you please add your remarks to the bottom of this section rather than at the top. Something is useful only if it works. NLP doesn't work hence it is not useful. There is no evidence that any aspect of NLP works. I'm not making that up. There is not one randomised control experiment that demonstrates the efficacy of any aspect of NLP. Asking people about "results" is simply obtaining anecdotal evidence. Who cares for anecdotal evidence? Humans have a great capacity for kidding themselves. How would you know that (a) you are getting results; and (b) if you are getting results, that you can attribute those to NLP? The creator. There were two creators Bandler and Grinder. You must be a Bandlerite. I have zero respect for Bandler -- just look at the guy: fat, toothless, diabetic, former cocaine addict, former alcoholic, implicated in murder, bankrupted twice, lost his insane litigations regarding NLP as his intellectual property. Bandler has also fictionalised his biography and been dishonest about his accomplishments. Bandler has a BA in Psychology and Philosophy and an MA in Psychology. He isn't a mathematician or an engineer. I'd rather give my money to be vagrant. flavius 06:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Of the two you would be default consider Grinder more worthy of your respect? Relatively speaking of course. jVirus File:Confederate Battle Flag.svg 09:30, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I have no respect or regard for Bandler or Grinder. Bandler is a nasty arsehole. Grinder isn't nasty and he doesn't have Bandler's compulsion to make shit up about his biography but that doesn't by "default" make him worthy of respect. My ethical stance is simple: fees shouldn't be charged for training and therapy which is unproven. It is morally questionable to distract and divert people from trainings or therapies the value of which has not been demonstrated. It is unconscionable to take their money also. NLP is essentially a commercial enterprise. Bandler and Grinder are entrepeneurs -- nothing more. I don't have a problem with commercial enterprise or entreperneurialism per se -- they are the lifeblood of market economies. I do have a problem with commercial enterprise masquerading as scientific inquiry. I do have a problem with selling psychobabble at exhorbitant fees by exploiting the naivete and ignorance of people. I have more respect for the drug-dealers that once kept Bandler and Grinder supplied with cocaine. At least Bandler and Grinder got something that worked in exchange for their money. flavius 13:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

avoid personal remarks

Please remove you personal remarks directed at my username, "for you, FT2, Comaze, the crackpot conspiracy theorist and NLP" [1] --Comaze 13:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The crackpot conspiracy theorist remark was directed not at you but at Mr Bowan the author of "Operation Mind Control" that shared his "insights" about the origins of NLP. It is telling though that you would interpret an ambiguous sentence structure in that manner. If I wanted to call you a "crackpot conspiracy theorist" I would have structured my sentence thus: "for you, FT2, Comaze (the crackpot conspiracy theorist) and NLP" or "for you, FT2, the crackpot conspiracy theorist Comaze and NLP". Have you been called a "crackpot conspiracy theorist" before? flavius 00:39, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I did not read into the content, just noticed that one of the ways ambigious was a personal remark that is against wikipedia policy. Let's see if we can restore some civility on the talk page. --Comaze 11:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Prose

I could ask the same question [2] of other editors but I keep it to myself. If you think the discussion is going to get personal, you can ask the editor via private message or email. Nonetheless, I think that the entire documents needs to be copyedited, so if you have time, please correct my prose. --Comaze 22:53, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hanlon's Razor

Hanlon's Razor: :Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. I thought you'd like that one :) --Comaze 07:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Open arbitration

You seem to be a participant in the events being considered at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Neuro-linguistic programming. You may be affected by the remedies in that matter. You may place evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Neuro-linguistic programming/Evidence. Proposals and comments may be placed at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop. Fred Bauder 15:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Ashley Dowlen's (1996)

Hi Comaze. I'll re-read the article. On the basis of my first reading I don't think it adds much to either the pro or con side that hasn't already been stated. In the interests of brevity and focussing on improving what's presently there (through substantiation) we should be careful in what we're adding. That notwithstanding, I will re-read it tomorrow. I've been skim reading Frogs and I can't find the quote attributed to that book regarding B&G saying they're not scientists. The only similar quote I can find is: 'We call ourselves modelers. What we essentially do is pay very little attention to what people say they do and a great deal of attention to what they do...We are not psychologists, and we're also not theologians or theoreticians. We have no idea about the "real" nature of things, and we're not particularly interested in what's "true."' (p.7) I suppose they would also say they are not scientists but I can't find a quote in which they say that explicitly. In Whispering Grinder repeatedly refers to himself as a "researcher". Though in numerous Bandler seminars he does suggest he is a scientist by referring to himself as a mathematician, computer scientists and physicist. I suppose the editor was trying to relay this flip-floppig by B&G (especially Bandler). Also, I haven't checked if it hasn't been removed yet but that "Vexen Crabtree" citation and the sentence about NLP and cults attributed to Crabtree should be removed. I've flagged this matter earlier. flavius 12:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Flavius, In Frogs B&G imply that they are not scientists, I am also unable to find a explicit quote for this. Neither B or G follow the scientific method. Looking forward to any comments on any useful points made by Downlen around history, epistemology, background, research and usefulness in various management applications... And yes, citing the unknown "Vexen Crabtree" in the same paragraph as some experts was embarressing. It was me (not HD) who expanded that p.7 quote on the talk page -- I did this before you replied here. To my knowledge Bandler currently has no interest in academic research. In a recent interview (from nlpmp3.com) Bandler claims to be developing a portable MRI-like device for use in modeling. Given that Grinder was a legitimate linguist in the early 70s and with his recent academic publication with Bostic St Clair and Malloy (2003, 2005) does this satisfy the criteria of researcher? Mulitple citations from external researchers would prove this to be the case. --Comaze 12:03, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Good work

Good work on the NLP article. Don't let the idiots wear you out. BrianH123 01:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the words of encouragement. flavius 03:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Help

As you can see I have been tirelessly converting havard refs to footnotes, can you help out?Voice of All^T|@|ESP 01:57, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'll see what I can do. Sunday late afternoon or evening may be free. flavius

NLP

I must agree with BrianH123 -- you seem to have put in an enormous amount of research and effort to your work!

Thank you very much for your comments on senses and NLP -- I can see that academically speaking this is a very flawed (possibly fatally so) area. I have no vested interest in the debate on either side but was wondering if the area has been deemed by scientists to have dubious value to what should we attribute the apparent anecdotal success of people such as mentalist Derren Brown? Surely the susceptability of people (those who are gullible or otherwise) to fraudulent activities such as ouija boards, clairvoyants, con artists etc. would tend to indicate that on some level there are systems where by people can be influenced? (Even if NLP is not an accurate or successful method to describe or reproduce such systems -- which is what it appears to wish that it was...)

Coricus 09:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Mentalism has nothing to do with NLP. Derren Brown's effects are produced using conjuring, mentalism, reading micro expressions, showmanship and in a few cases, deception. Many of Browns' most impressive tricks are variations of old mentalist acts. Mentalists such as Max Maven and Banacheck show you how to create many effect like Browns' on their instructional videos. In his book Pure Effect Brown states that

NLP is a communication tool that blends aspects of Behaviourism and Chomskian Linguistics into a highly evangelical package. It has built around itself a rather creepy scene and in a rather dubious and unchecked way has become a massive industry in the worlds of trendy management-training and alternative therapies. Having trained with the highly likeable founder of NLP, I find it a mixture of sensible and appealing methods for dealing with low-level pathologies such as phobias and fears on the one hand, and sheer daft nonsense and massive rhetoric on the other. (p. 107)

There is really no substantial support for the specific claims that NLP makes and much of it can be dismissed as vacuous nonsense. (p. 110)

(from Brown, D. (2000) Pure Effect:Direct Midreading and Magical Artistry, H&R Magic Books)

Regarding NLPs positive anecdotal evidence Tye (1994) offers the following hypothesis:

One must reconcile the null results reported by Sharpley and the NRC [National Research Council] with the remarkable successes reported in the case study literature. An alternative explanation is suggested here to explain the discrepancy between the positive case study outcomes achieved by NLP paractitioners and the frequently lackluster results of experimental researchers. The alternative will be termed the "psycho shaman effect." Like NLP techniques, the psycho shaman effect is a collection of already existing, well understood and accepted ideas. Specifically it has three components: cognitive dissonance, placebo effect and therapist charisma. (from Tye, M.J.C (1994). Neurolinguistic programming: Magic or myth? Journal of Accelerative Learning and Teaching, 19, 309-342.)

Certainly people can be persuaded and influenced, this is the province of social psychology (see [3][4][5]). An accessible and interesting social psychology based book on the topic of influence and persuasion is Cialdini, R. B. (1998) Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, Collins (see [6]). Susceptibility to bunkum is also due to certain well-known weaknesses of human cognition and memory. You can read about these in

Gilovich, T. (1993) How We Know What Isn't So, Free Press

Piatelli-Palmarini, M. (1996) Inevitable Illusions: How Mistakes of Reason Rule Our Minds, Wiley

Schacter, D. L. (2002) The Seven Sins of Memory: How the Mind Forgets and Remembers, Houghton Mifflin

Many psychics and clairvoyants use "cold reading" (some use "warm reading" also) and mentalist effects.

I hope this has been useful for you. flavius 13:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

    That's fascinating. Thank you for the useful sources to check out. Coricus 03:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Linguistics Proceedure

Flavius thanks for all your comments on the NLP Wiki discussion page! I am slowly studying various roots and aspects of NLP and the TG model. I am at times reverting to the TG and with your input I get to expand some of my info. To make a more detailed study of Linguistics and these various aproaches, ie TG, what might be some exciting books I might read that will lead me from piece to piece and theory to destroyed/modified/proved/whatever theory is next? I have not yet purchased a copy of syntactic structure. I get bogged down in crap but then I find my way and my interrest in linguistic study and pick it up again. Know what I mean? Anyhow a progression that would lead me to understand today's linguistic suppositions, how they are formed, who is for what and why would really be useful to me. When I get around to reading it would be helpful to know what to read and sequencewise would be handy dandy. jVirus 16:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for the delay in replying. I'd start with a introductory linguistics textbook, one that is used to teach first-year linguistics at university. Many universities have their syllabi, course notes and booklists on the WWW, enter "linguistics site:.edu" in Google. I wouldn't use Syntactic Structures as a starting point. flavius 01:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

No problem! Thanks for the info I am looking forward to a great study! P.S. I am curious, do you feel that the meta-model works, as in gets the results it claims reguardless of its foundation? jVirus 19:47, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Grinder suggests that the Meta-Model in its original form is outdated and that it can be reduced to one fundamental question:What/Where/How/Which specifically? (see Whispering p.22, 54, 87, 121, 122, 124-6, 153, 220). The Meta-Model in its original form and its new streamlined form is quite banal, it is a very small subset of what is conventionally known as "clear thinking". There's nothing new or novel in the Meta-Model. In at least Western thought one of the first systems of questioning is the Socratic Method -- which is from the 5th C. BC. Although Socrates did not prescribe a "recipe" as per Bandler and Grinder, effective use of the Socratic Method encompasses all of the concerns of the Meta-Model (and much more). For example, Cognitive Therapy (and Classical Adlerian Psychotherapy) is an adaptation of the Socratic Method to psychotherapy (see [7][8]). TG doesn't work as a model for language a fortiori a general model of cognition and behaviour. Hence any technique or theory based on such weak foundation is going to be flawed and incomplete and such is the case with the Meta-Model. The Meta-Model does indeed describe some common errors of thought that have been known for hundreds of years before NLP was formulated and are well-known by good journalists, psychotherapists, lawyers and teachers. The problem with it is that it is incomplete and this incompleteness is attributable to the falseness of the core notion of Deep Structure/Surface Structure. The artifice of DS/SS blinds NLPers to the other common defects in human learning, memory and thinking which can't be subsumed under that conceptual scheme. So in direct answer to your question the Meta-Model does "work" in the sense that it provides a (limited) recipe for conversational challenges and it highlights some of the errors in thought and memory that we are vulnerable to but it is flawed in that it doesn't address all of the defects in thinking that we know about (that cause misunderstanding, confusion, conflict and emotional distress) and NLP is dogmatic about the cognitive basis of emotional distress. A depressive person may very well be violating the Meta-Model but that in no way establishes the direction of causation from Meta-Model violation to depression and no evidence of such causation has been presented. Furthermore, some depressions have a biological origin (eg. post-partum depression[9][10][11]) and the Meta-Model violations that NLPers focus on follow rather than cause the depression in these cases[12][13][14][15][16]). The point being that no amount of beating over the head of a mother with post-partum depression with the Meta-Model will help even if she is performing numerous violations since the mild-cognitive impairment that produces the Meta-Model violations is not causative. Hope this answers your concerns. flavius 11:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Dang Flavius you sure know your stuff. I am actually currently reading The Structure of Magic I again and more in depth. I realize the atiquated nature and inacuracy of the flawed models presented. I do find some of the insights assistant since it has been my experience that so many therapists I have known don't go anywhere.

If you haven't ever studied rhetoric, Socratic method, (Western) philosophy and (informal) logic then the Meta-Model will be enlightening. Since most people haven't learnt how to think logically and have a weak grasp of the notion of evidence the Meta-Model will prompt those that learn it and those that have it applied to them to think clearly and specifically (within the limits of the Meta-Model) about certain things. If you find that the Meta-Model clarifies your thinking then studying informal fallcies and informal logic may be even more enlightening for you. The numerous catalogues of informal fallacies (see for example [17]) are "supersets" of the Meta-Model. For example, unspecified referential index and unspecified verb are instances of the informal fallacy of vagueness[18]; universal quantifiers is an instance of the informal fallacy of hasty generalization[19] or that of sweeping generalization[20] or that of unrepresentative sample[21](depending on its peculiarities).flavius 06:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you feel that the patterns taught in Frogs into Princes work? I think there are three main patterns they present.

I'm not certain what you are referring to. Do you mean the Meta-Model patterns? Are you referring to Generalization, Deletion and Distortion? These are the mechanisms of abstraction that we supposedly used to build our internal models of the world, they are the reason why the "map is not the territory". B&G got this idea largely (if not entirely) from Korzybski. In Magic I B&G specify 12 basic problems in connection with description and communication of experience:

1. Simple deletion
2. Comparative deletion
3. Unspecified referential index
4. Unspecified verbs
5. Nominalization
6. Universal quantifiers
7. Modal operators
8. Complex equivalence
9. Presupposition
10. Cause-effect
11. Mind-reading
12. Lost Performative

Indeed people do exhibit these problems of cognition, memory and perception but they exhibit more such problems than the above list would suggest. The above list is biased towards vagueness and loss of specificity and this bias is confirmed by Grinder's reduction of the Meta-Model to one fundamental question (what/where/how/when/which specifically?). This bias originates from the heavy influence of General Semantics on NLP. GS is concerned with abstraction and how it helps and hinders communication and understanding. Higher-levels of abstraction yield sparser "models" or "maps". The Meta-Model is predicated on the GS assumption that abstraction and the associated loss of specificity is the only feature of cognition that can potentially produce problems. This is why the Meta-Model is incomplete -- it's foundational assumptions are wrong. Abstraction is merely one source of error in communication and description. Does this make sense? If you read:

How We Know What Isn't So[22]

The Seven Sins of Memory: How the Mind Forgets and Remembers[23]

Inevitable Illusions : How Mistakes of Reason Rule Our Minds[24]

Thinking From A to Z[25]

You'll have a much larger "vocabulary" for dialogic challenge (with others and self) than the Meta-Model will give you. The Meta-Model is Socratic Method Lite -- By Numbers or Socratic Method for the masses. flavius 07:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Frogs Into Princes Effectiveness

Flavius I am blown away! I am so stoked to read the books on logic. Thanks for the heads up. This is really going to help me in the knowledge zone. All of your refrences and thoughts are very well thought out, very refrenced, and quite well placed! When I mentioned the 3 patterns mentioned in Frogs into Princes I think I was referring to, as best as I can label them, 1. Change personal history, 2. fast phobia removal, 3. six step reframing, and whether you feel that the patterns presented actually got the results claimed? P.S. Have you read all those logic books you mentioned? P.S. Check Talk:Metamodel out and put a reply if you have one. jVirus 06:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Change personal history -- No evidence that it works and even if it did it isn't a healthy way to deal with the unpleasant and distressful experiences in our past

Fast phobia removal -- No evidence that it works and very similar to Dianetic auditing

Six-step reframing -- No evidence that it works, very New Age

I own and have read all but Seven Sins of Memory (it's out-of-print) which I have read a synposis of. flavius 11:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense especially in the scientific arena. Have you tried these patterns yourself? jVirus 23:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've tried those patterns and more. I've tried some on others, some on myself, I've had some applied to me and I've also observed other applying them to other people. They don't work. When they do appear to work it is due to non-specific factors and placebo. flavius 01:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

You've tried the techniques on others also right? jVirus 08:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you missed my additional question right here above. jVirus 00:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a clinician so I don't try to treat peoples' illnesses and it would be unethical to perform amateur experiments on ill people. If someone comes to tell me that they're feeling depressed I wouldn't dare attempting to use NLP to help them. It is most unethical for an amaeteur to attempt to treat mental illness, it is unconscionable for an amateur to use a method for which there is no evidence of its efficacy on an ill person. I have used NLP persuasion and rapport techniques on other people and no they don't work. flavius 08:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh sorry. I didnt know you were not a clinician. Its cool. jVirus File:Confederate Battle Flag.svg 12:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Avoid personal remarks

Flavius. Please take care to avoid personal attacks against Wikipedia users -- in reference to your comments:

• "Again you are parading your ignorance." [26]
• "... you would like to pretend ..." [27]
• "Your notion of argument is aberrant. You are typing gibberish." [28]
• "[your argument] betrays a lack of interest in how things actually are." [29]

Peace. Metta Bubble 01:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Cynicism. flavius 05:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Frank Farelly

I am 60.240.178.243 and 202.7.176.134. I decided to create an account when I saw how many times these IP addresses had been used to make edits. I have added more material regarding Bandler's litigation. I think the entry now reads as a potted biography (which it should). Perhaps more can be added regarding Bandler's influences eg. Robert Anton Wilson, Aleister Crowley, Timothy Leary, Moshe Felendekrais. Also, Frank Farelly and Moshe Felendehrais did not appear to influence any of the work jointly undertaken by Bandler and Grinder. flavius 05:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius, I have a tape her of Bandler and Grinder modeling Frank at a convetion for psychotherapists. I'm not aware of any jointly published books based on this work. --Comaze 23:59, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Final decision

The arbitration committee has reached a final decision in the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Neuro-linguistic programming case. Raul654 01:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Tread softly, no stepping on toes

Hallo Flavius. We have some constructive discussion going on in the workshop article [30]. I have been blocked twice already for behaving pretty much the same as 99% of other wikipedia editors. And apparently, there is nothing in the incivility article that caters for badgering editors with repeat already answered questions. So I guess we are going to have to dance with them, rather than defend with spiked shields. Good job your judo is up to standard. No pressure to contribute, of course. Especially as wasting researcher's time is such a favoured strategy. Cheers Camridge 07:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

You have been blocked for an hour

For this comment. PLEASE be civil. If you have a problem with how we are doing things, then email us privately and we'll deal with it. We're not perfect. But paragraph long attacks against anyone including the mentors will not be tolerated. Heed Camridge's advice. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 09:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

And I am not revulsed by abstraction. You are completely misreading the purpose of the mentors here. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 09:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I did restore most of what you said. Criticizing us is ok if you feel like we are not doing something correctly. But some of what you said clearly crossed the line into incivility. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 09:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"We're not perfect". No shit. You don't even have a grasp of the basic points of contention regarding the NLP article. All three of you have a set of generic brand tinned responses that you re-heat and serve up as haute cuisine. Then you have the audacity to become indignant when this is pointed out to you. Clearly you don't understand the technical matters that are germane to the topic of NLP and are either unwilling or unable to adjudicate over the actual points of contention between the editors. In lieu of addressing the real editorial problems you and your buddies have chosen to trade platitudes and cliches and pat each other on the back for your flaccid contributions. Please. flavius 10:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

You have just been blocked for 6 hours. And if you respond with more incivility, it will be for 24 hours. Either live by the rules we've set down or don't participate in the discussion. The method that you favor was tried for a long time, which is how the article ended up with multiple mediators and a arbcom case for an *article*, which never happens. I don't think the arbcom has ever taken an article as a case. So that's why mentors were brought in to try to teach the users involved how Wikipedia works. The thing is, dmcdevit (an arbcom member) clearly stated on my talk page that the old ways aren't what they want. In the end, I do understand the concepts involved in NLP. But the job of the mentors is not to pick which side is best. It's to enforce the arbcom decision. We are trying our best to keep everyone on track. If we let people go off on tangents and lose focus, then these disputes will never be resolved and I highly doubt that the arbcom appointed us to just let you guys go at it some more. We've had enough of that. So if you want to be civil and follow our rules, we are more than happy to have you involved. But if all you are going to do is to attack, attack and attack, we'd rather you stay out of the discussion. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 11:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what you think of us, you're going to have to either submit to our authority in this, or leave Wikipedia. It's as simple as that. Learn to participate according to the rules, or don't participate. Jdavidb

(talk • contribs) 15:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. Actually, I reckon being blocked is a clear triumph of beurocracy over fact. Never mind the beurocracy, and well done:) But I could do with your input on the article sometime, and the current beurocracy seems to be combatting the more irritating nags of the past to some degree. We are going to have to be quite impersonal about things after all. I'm sure the facts will be the winners here. Cheers Camridge 03:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Woohookitty, Katefan0 etc. No, the method I favour has not been tried. I did not state that you don't "understand the concepts involved in NLP". I wrote "You don't even have a grasp of the basic points of contention regarding the NLP article" and that is the crux of the problem of your contribution thus far. Furthermore, none of you have grasped my principal position so I'll repeat it. Nowhere have I asked for or sought a statement as to the truth of the matter or "which side is best" nor have I attempted to arrive at the truth on the discussion page. Most -- perhaps all -- of the contention on the NLP article concerns (a) designating the view that NLP "works" as a minority view and disposing of it as per Wikipedia policy on minority views; (b) the representativenss of the authors critical of NLP as representative of the majority (scientific) view; and (c) the citability of sources on both sides of the divide. These are the core issues that produced the edit wars and these are the issues which you are not helping to resolve. All you've managed to do is slow down the edits. We will then arrive at the same old place but it will just take longer. You three need to indepedently investigate these matters and adjudicate on them. I will attempt to distil the debate (and I am happy if parties from either camp correct me). Note that this has nothing to do with righness and wrongness and truth it is do with a whether a situation meets the terms of certain Wikipedia policies.

Contra NLP

1. The view that NLP is efficacious and theoretically sound is a minority view not unlike "flat earth" theory. Hence it should be treated in the NLP article and in Wikipedia generally as a minority view.
2. The scientists cited in the article are representative of the majority view of psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, neurologists, nueropsychologists and sociologists and hence should be presented as such.
3. The few (3-5) scientists that do support and promote NLP are a minority, they are espousing a minority view and should be presented as such.
4. The view that NLP is pseudoscientific, New Age and cult-like is the majority view of psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, neurologists, neuropsychologists and sociologists and should be presented as such.
5. The texts cited in criticism of NLP are authroritative and many are peer-reviewed.

Pro NLP

The obverse of the above points.

The conflict arises because

1. The pro-NLP editors are unwilling to have NLP presented as a minority view.
2. The pro-NLP editors are unwilling to have the view that NLP is ineffective and withour theoretical basis presented as the majority view.
3. The few scientists that do support NLP and promote its use are given too much weight and space relative to their individual (academic) stature and number.
4. The pro-NLP editors argue that the scathing critiques (eg. from Leelt, Drenth, Carroll, Eisner, Singer) are not majority representative views but are instead the views of a minority of extremists.

The extensive, expansive and heated discussion occured because these psoitions were argued for by each side in an attempt to establish the righness of their position regarding the representativess and authority of the sources not the righness or wrongness of NLP. The bulk of the conflict turns around the application NPOV:Undue weight, NPOV:Pseudoscience, and NPOV:Giving "equal validity". The real issues have not been addressed by any mediators, arbitrarors and mentors and addressing these would not be "more of the same". It is well within your remit to adjudicate these matters. Have I explained myself clearly? Do you understand? flavius 03:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree Flavius. And, though I'm not too hot on the civility thing myself, I cannot see anything uncivil in what you have stated. I believe I was wrong in previously thinking that the mediators/arbs were biased away from the majority view and towards the new age. I agree that there is still a misunderstanding, and that getting to the root cause of the problem is essential because that will help resolve the problems with bias towards the minority in the pro-editor's suggestions. You have hit the metaphorical nail on the head there. I can't see the present "mediaton methods" going away in a hurry though. But I do expect that NPOV policy will be followed, albeit quite gradually. Camridge 04:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

inner experience evidence

Flavius is there any scientific evidence of an inner experience? jVirus File:Confederate Battle Flag.svg 17:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

It depends what you mean by "inner experience". If you mean subjective experience then yes there is plenty of scientific evidence obtained using a variety of instruments. Tomography (fMRI, PET, SPECT) provides one form of evidence of subjective experience as does EEG. Psychometric instruments such as the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression incorporate tests for subjective features of depressive illness. Brain damage arising from head trauma or from surgery (to remove tumours) and the resultant changes in cognition, affect and interpersonal behaviour provide another form of evidence of subjective experience. Similarly, certain forms of mental retardation such as autism and autistic behaviour make evident certain aspects of subjective experience. The most basic form of evidence of subjective experience is observable behaviour and this can be measured objectively. Pain is a subjective experience, yet we can not only detect that a person is experiencing pain but we can also guage the extent of the pain they are experiencing (from the volume of their screams, crying, pulse rate, blood pressure etc.). flavius 04:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

True, Flavius. Determining the actual "structure" of subjective experience is quite another matter though. Camridge 04:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. flavius 04:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Especially if the structure is claimed to be universally applicable as a pragmatic method for achieving excellence and therapeutic magic!

That is a great explaination. I think you hit on the term I was talking about. What would be the other term "inner experience" that you referr to? jVirus 06:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

oh yeah and dingle dingle ^^^ jVirus File:Confederate Battle Flag.svg 09:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Collingwoods

Hello Comaze. Concerning your action on behalf of the interests of the NLP company of the Collingwoods: In an effort to reduce the likelihood of conflict being provoked, and for the sake of continuing the improvement on the NLP workshop article, I have posted a message to KatefanO on this matter. [31]. Camridge 03:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

In an email Comaze explained to me that he was "authorised" to speak on behalf of the Collingwoods. Thus Comaze is a mouthpiece and lapdog of the Collingwoods -- the owners of an NLP training and consultancy organisation. flavius 14:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Im looking for a term:

Hey Flavius, I am looking for a term. I read it somewhere. It is something along the lines of a field of, maybe philosophy where the propoents put forth that one cannot deal with just individual pieces but must view the whole or something. Ring a bell? jVirus File:Confederate Battle Flag.svg 09:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like New Age bullshit. flavius 14:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I found it, "Cybernetics". There was something in the term that denoted the limitation of studying the part at the expense of the whole. jVirus File:Confederate Battle Flag.svg 04:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

You have been blocked for 24 hours

For this. If calling someone a "lapdog" isn't uncivil, I don't think anything is. Please stop. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 01:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

How about sycophant, forelock tugger, or flunky? Are these acceptable? Also, I'm on my own talk page -- save defamation -- don't I have the choice of adjectives? flavius 04:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

No. The civility requirements don't end with the NLP article. The block has now been extended to 48 hours for the words you used. If you use more, it'll just be extended further, so I'd suggest that you stop now. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 05:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Surely not! Would marionette or drone be indicative of incivility? At this time I'm unable to think of any other synonyms, similes or anlogies that convey the idea of subservience and sycophancy. Describing a behaviour as sycophantic and subservient isn't necessarily uncivil. Surely, there are behaviours that are sycophantic and subservient and the application of these adjectives to these instances is a matter of fidelity. If I had described Comaze as a shithead, dickhead, arsehole or prick that would be uncivil because these are expletives that mean nothing more than "objectionable person". The phrase arse licker is accurate but that is taboo and uncivil. What about a ventriloquist dummy metaphor? Surely that's not uncivil. The comedic content alone would negate any potential incivility, eg. "Can Chris Collingwood drink a glass of water whilst Comaze counts to 10?", "Can John Grinder drink a glass of water whilst Chris Collingwood counts to 10?". A Pinocchio/Geppetto metaphor would also work but I wouldn't want to imply that anyone was lying about NLP -- heaven forbid. flavius 15:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is necessarily uncivil. "Comment on content, not on contributors" is clear and unambiguous direction, given for a very good reason, which you've now blatantly violated several times. Your block is now at a week. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 15:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

We'll have to agree to disagree on this matter. I know I should care about the block -- and I have tried to care about it -- but for some reason I don't. flavius 05:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

If you make any uncivil comments in the next week, you will be blocked indefinitely and the user and talk pages protected. So I'd stop. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 06:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Disagree if you like, as long as you stop acting like this. You're on thin ice as it is, as Woohookitty mentioned. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 14:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Bandler Article

Including links to glowing reviews of Bandler's seminars is commercial promotion and in breach of Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia is not a forum for the promotion of products and services. flavius 03:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

"There is no attempt to discredit Bandler" - Falvius Flavius, what this article does to which discredits Bandler is that it only cover his lawsuits, enough so as to give the impression that he is just a guy who sued a lot of people. Clearly, in an appropriate, fair, biographical article, that might be 1/5th of what is said about him.

You have repeatedly removed links that offer extensive information about Bandler because they are pro-his viewpoint. Certainly there should be links to information that is critical to his dealings, but there should also be relevant links to individuals that like him and comment at length about his trainings and work. Please allow this article to become fair and balanced. Thanks. - An Unregistered Wikipedia User (24.236.144.124/24-236-144-124.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com).

Please place your commentary at the end of the page in the future. It doesn't only cover his law suits. Also covered is his co-creation of NLP and creation of DHE, NHR and PE. It is contrary to Wikipedia policy to include lins to "[s]ites that primarily exist to sell products or services." WP:EL The external links I have removed are -- with respect to Bandler -- not "pro-his viewpoint", they are advertisements. The seminar reviews I removed are product testimonials -- they are advertisements. There are no negative reviews on that site. Surely, there are people that have walked away from Bandler seminars disappointed (I personally know of several such cases). Where are these negative reviews? Most of the people that "like him" eg. Paul McKenna, Paul Breen, John La Valle, Nick Kemp etc. and write hagiographies are commercial partners, they have a commercial interest in promoting Bandler. My actions are entirely consistent with the article growing in a fair and balanced manner. My concern is with preventing the article from becomng an advertisement for Bandler. Bandler's biography is rather dull and uninteresting -- the only interesting features are his fuck-ups such as his divorce, two declarations of bankruptcy, the split with Grinder, the cocaine habit, the alcoholism, the nutty lawsuits and being tried for the murder of a BDSM hooker. The banality of Bandler's life is most probably why he makes up so much shit about himself -- to make himself sound interesting. Bandler has no life outside of NLP -- it's been his life since university (even his MA was in "Theoretical Psychology"). Grinder -- on the other hand -- was in the Army and he taught linguistics for many years. Bandler's "trainings and work" is his business -- its how he makes money, nothing more. If Bandler had actually made some great discovery (eg. polio vaccine) or achieved some great feat (eg. saving millions of people from hunger) then we'd be able to include it in the article. Unfortunately (for Bandler) his life has been a series of screw-ups and has revolved largely around a few banal ideas that he and Grinder had in the early 1970s. The man himself is a screw-up: he's obese, diabetic and toothless. Can someone that is unable to "master" dental hygiene and diet be sanely represented as an authority on mental and physical health and self-control? flavius 08:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

You have been blocked for 2 weeks

For this. This is your 6th block, Flavius. Any further disruption is going to lead to an indefinite block. Last chance. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 12:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

What is wrong with that edit? How is it disruptive? flavius 13:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

It is a personal attack from start to finish. I had to remove the entire thing because I couldn't even refactor it to something keepable. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 13:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

The whole thing? Even the bit where I refer to Wikipedia policy? The third point could be construed as a personal attack but the first two aren't. Can you at least reinstate the first two points? flavius 13:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

On what evidence does Corballis make these claims? ---=-C-=- 08:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, it's not your place to "peer review" Corballis. You are not his peer and even if your were your assessment of Corballis and his conclusion is entirely irrelevant. Corballis is a topic expert and that is his conclusion. Quoting Corballis is entirely consistent with all Wikipedia policies -- it is not encumbent on me to defend Corballis or for you to attempt a critique. Mind Myths is a collection of essays published by a large publisher, Corballis is a profesor at the University of Auckland and is an expert in cognitive neuroscience[32]. Corballis has a special interest in brain lateralisation and language evolotion. End of story nothing more need be said.

This isn't a personal attack. Can you tell me how this constitutes a personal attack? flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, as the mentors have repeatedly stated it is not our job to determine the truth, our function as editors is to report expert opinion. You and Greg have often as a last resort when you've no other recourse left attempt to engage an expert in debate using the Wikipedia editor (in this case me) as a proxy. I've no interest in debating you on behalf of Corballis -- I don't have to and it's a waste of my time, it will come to nothing.

Neither is this. This is a reference to Wikipedia policy and a historical breaches of this policy by GregA and Comaze. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Thirdly, you haven't arrived at your devotion to NLP via reason and your fetish can't be altered using reason. You're not operating within the a domain in which evidence has any value or even meaning. On what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. The post-modern position is not available only to Grinder. Decide where you sit on this matter don't embrace or reject scientific realism as it suits you. This dithering reeks of bad faith. flavius 12:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Parts of this could be regarded as a personal attack. This refactoring isn't in any way an attack:

Thirdly, on what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Comaze's question represents an attempt (not necessaily malicious) to lead the discussion into a debate about truth vis-a-vis NLP which you have been discouraging. A re-iteration of the ground rules can't be considered a personal attack. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Right. So it's the *mentors* job to call him on it. Personal. Less see. Accusing him of hypocrisy. Secondly, you assume bad faith by assuming that he came to NLP not be reasoning. Thirdly, you accused him of bad faith. And there are other examples I could cite but I am not going to. I will make another attempt to refactor your comments. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 19:58, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Btw, if you want to see the right way to respond to Comaze's question, look at HeadleyDown's response. It's questioning but it's civil and polite. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 19:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

The "right way" is the efficacious way. I'm not seeing the progress I hoped for since the mentors involvement. GregA, Comaze and Mettabubble are in effect asserting P and not P and this is having the effect of stalling editorial progress. In order to insert pro-NLP material -- that doesn't meet the conventional standards of evidence -- we are bombarded with appeals to epistemological relatvism expressed in the form of "NLP has its own epistemology" and "NLP has its own standard of evidence". In order to obstruct inclusion of material critical of NLP the epistemological relativism is (temporarily) discarded and scientific realism is (temporarily) embraced and we are asked for conventional evidence and the discourse becomes meaningful only in the context of scientific realism (i.e. notions of "experimental evidence", "peer review", "reputablity" and science are appealed to). This is nonsensical and it is holding back the article. This switching of weltenschaung as it suits is confusing the discussions. It is not logically possible to simulatenously appeal to epistemological relativism and scientific realism. It is self-contradictory -- it is the same as proposing P and not P. If this contradiction is allowed to seep into the article it will produce a confusing article that will resemble a piece of Dadaist art more than an encyclopedic article. If NLP is to be justified in terms of appeals to epistemological relativism and other post-modern tenets (as at least two NLP proponents that I know of do) then no critical material can be questioned on evidentiary grounds (since to do so implies an epistemological objectivism). Similarly, if the evidentiary standard of scientific realism is to be applied to critical NLP litertaure the it should also be applied to pro-NLP literature. This is non-negotiable. If NLP has its own epistemology and standard of evidence then so too can everyone else. The post-modern notion of the plurality of truths demands that my claims are no less privileged than anyone elses. If Grinder can appeal to his own epistemology, standard of evidence and notion of truth then so too can Corballis, Singer, Levelt, Beyerstein, Drenth, et al. The upshot of this is that if an author is going to justify their claims by appealing to epistemological/moral/aesthetic relativism they must extend that privilege to other also. Comaze and GregA seem to think that Grinder has some special pass to the Universe where he can define his own standard of evidence and conception of truth yet anyone that criticises him must confine themselves to the rigours of scientific realism. If a an NLP critical view is to be scrutinised with reference to scientific realist concepts -- in particular, the notion of objective experimental evidence -- then so too must the NLP promotional views. If the NLP promotional views are to be admitted on epistemological relativist terms then so to must NLP critical views. I accused Comaze of hypocrisy because he asks, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?" yet he won't entertain the question "On what evidence does Grinder make these claims?". How can it be that Corballis needs evidence yet Grinder doesn't? flavius 02:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop attacking others. With the next attack, you will be blocked indefinitely. I would suggest serving your 2 weeks in peace. Once again, you are being incivil and attacking others. Suggesting that the pro-NLP side is stalling and obstruction would be personal attacks. What I don't understand is. You have 2 basic options. It's simple. You can either A) email comments like this to the mentors and we will look into them or B) Do what HeadleyDown is doing, which is write out what you want, look at what we consider blockable and then remove the blockable comments. This isn't hard. We're not asking for much. So you have problems with how the pro side is handling things. Fine. Then email us on it and we will see what we can do. Instead, you put it here and it comes off as a personal attack and as assuming bad faith. And flavius, you've been blocked 6 times. You should know the policy on attacks by now and what we consider attacks. If you don't know, then I don't think you ever will in which case you don't belong here. This is your last chance. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 08:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not being uncivil and attacking others. Why is it preferable to email you rather than post my concerns in the discussion? I don't like the furtive intrigue implicit in privately communicating to the mentors. Discussion should be open and free restricted only by the law. I'm mindful that I don't libel anyone and that's enough for my government and my conscience. Your notion of "civility" is alien to me -- it's very PC notion and Australia isn't a PC nation (sure there are pockets of it on certain univeristy campuses and government bureaucracies but it's not a national character). I'm not from the USA so I'm not imbued with the Victorian/Protestant Puritanism that you appear to be appealing to. That isn't a personal attack -- it is a matter of fact, pointing out a fact that may be unpalatable isn't a personal attack. Also, why can't I put what I like -- so long as it isn't libellous -- on "my talk" page. So what if I've been blocked six times? You're the one performing the blocking it's not like your're referring to the decisions of some independent third-party, court of the land or moral authority. Your notion of a personal attack doesn't match up with mine -- it's as simple as that. I don't understand what you are having trouble understanding ("What I don't understand is"). This is an aesthetic dispute and your definition of a "personal attack" is loose and flexible. I can't read your mind or predict the future, I don't know in advance what you will deem a "personal attack" and it isn't as if I'm calling people motherfuckers or child pornographers. Libel is wel-defined so I know when I'd be libelling someone. A "personal attack" in my aesthetic judgement consists of calling someone a dickhead, a fuckwit, a moron, a rapist, paedophile, con-artist, racist epithet and so on. Stating that someone is being hypocritical and then proceeding to provide an exlanation of how someone is being hypocritical isn't a personal attack. Certainly, it's not "nice" but neither are articles on bestiality, paedophilia, coprophilia, and redneck American racists[33]. Who will be the arbiter of whether I "belong here"? I've been complying with your blocks without any fuss. There is no way to keep a determined person off Wikipedia and I haven't resorted to any of these means (which are entirely legal, easy and unstoppable) so I don't understand why you are antagonising and threatening me. flavius 12:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello Woohookitty. I don't consider myself particularly civil. I have to write my responses in word document form first, then revisit them about an hour later to remove the multitude of blockable norms. I am getting better at it though, but I sometimes worry its making my writing a bit camp. Still, overall I'm really enjoying the editing process again. The new research just keeps coming. Regards HeadleyDown 00:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. I have some big searchable files if you are interested. Here's my email: headleydown@yahoo.com

Regards HeadleyDown 00:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi HeadleyDown. Searchable files of what? flavius

Hello Flavius. I have some NLP literature in general in pdf and word format. Regards HeadleyDown 05:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)Oh, more specifically, Frogs, and some other originals. Plus notes and refs. HeadleyDown 06:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

You have been blocked indefinitely

It's obvious that you are not going to follow our rules. Your last post demonstrates this. And it also included personal attacks. I am going to protect this page due to your threats of using sockpuppets and also legal threats. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email us. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 19:35, 2 April 2006 (UTC)