User talk:Feis-Kontrol/Georgetown intro sandbox

Text of proposed introduction

The oldest Catholic college in the United States, Georgetown University is a private, co-educational research and teaching university whose main campus is located in the Georgetown neighborhood of Washington, D.C. Georgetown's faculty do research and provide instruction to students in 180 programs in four undergraduate schools, three graduate and professional schools, and several specialized institutes. The university's programs in international affairs and law are especially well regarded.

The foundation of the College of George Town in 1789 by John Carroll, later the nation's first bishop, realized efforts dating from 1634 to establish a Roman Catholic college in the province of Maryland. The college was placed under the supervision of the Society of Jesus in 1815, the same year that it was conferred civil recognition as the nation's first congressionally chartered college. Small and meagerly funded in its early years, Georgetown grew after the American Civil War into a modern branched university under the leadership of Patrick Francis Healy, the first American of African descent to earn a doctorate and to direct a university.

Home to 56 Jesuits, Georgetown is nonetheless governed independently of the order and of Church authorities by the President and Directors of Georgetown College, under which name the university was incorporated in 1844. In recent years fewer than half of Georgetown's undergraduate students have identified as Catholic. The tensions between the university's commitments to its Catholic and Jesuit heritage and to academic freedom and between Catholic doctrine and students' secular lifestyles have sometimes caused controversy on campus and within the broader Catholic community.

Georgetown's students, who in most years hail from all 50 states and more than 130 countries, are known for their political activism. Notable for their leadership in government, Georgetown's alumni include former U.S. president Bill Clinton as well as the present heads of state or of government of six countries and the European Commission. Georgetown's student-athletes, known as the Hoyas, don Union blue and Confederate gray to compete in the Big East Conference and the Eastern College Athletic Conference in 23 varsity sports. The men's basketball team is well known for having reached the Final Four five times, winning the national championship in 1984, and for producing dozens of NBA players.

Discussion

I am proposing a wholesale rewriting of the article's introduction, which is particularly muddled on points of history (the mysterious reference to 1634) and religious identity/controversy (poorly elucidated). My aim is better clarity, better organization, and better flow, not substantial revision of the content. I have, however, added several new pieces of information to promote these goals:

• the date of affiliation with the Jesuits and the number of Jesuits on campus
• a word on the religious and geographic demographics of students
• the number of academic programs

All of this information appears elsewhere in the article, I think, but if not I have citations. I have also refined the focus of the introduction to the things Georgetown is best know for. Here's my first draft. Please provide comments.

—Feis-Kontrol (talk) 23:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Too long and too wordy (like all of my drafts! :) ). If you'll move or copy this to a suitable sandbox I'll be happy to help edit it down. ElKevbo (talk) 23:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Where's the appropriate place to move this so we can work on it?

My proposal is about 40% longer than the existing introduction (367 words to 254). I agree we should try to make it shorter, but keep in mind that it is already shorter than or commensurate in length to articles for other universities that have been nominated for or achieved good or featured status (e.g., UCLA: 436 words, Michigan: 407, McGill: 344, Virginia: 345, Berkeley: 318). When looking for parts to cut down, keep in mind that there's really no point in mentioning people like Carroll and Healy in the intro if we don't leave space for a few words explaining why they're significant.

Look forward to seeing your changes. —Feis-Kontrol (talk) 03:13, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

You can make a sandbox hanging off of this page, in your userspace, or even mine if you'd like. Do you need help doing that? ElKevbo (talk) 03:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I've just noticed that I got the year the university was put under the supervision of the Jesuits wrong. It should be 1805. The charter was indeed conferred in 1815, so that sentence must be reworked. —Feis-Kontrol (talk) 03:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I must say that's not bad, and I kind of like it. Know that the article's gone through many critical examinations during its periods at GAN, PR, FAC, and TFA, and the current introduction is one of serious and concerted compromise that's the key part of an article that other editors on Wikipedia consider among the small percentage of well-written works. And the intro, in a similar form, was used on the mainpage when this was Today's Featured Article in 2007. That all said, there's always space for improvement and new blood. Here are some thoughts, with some issues I see:

• I do like how your intro deals with 1634, and don't like how the current one does. Way back a few users tried hard to get 1634 put in the infobox, and that was my compromise with them, putting it in the intro. But I haven't seen any rumbling about this for years, so its probably fair to change that around.
• The sentence in the History section, "The Maryland Society of Jesus was restored in 1805 and given supervision of the school", is actually badly worded. The society was restored in 1805, but the society wasn't "given supervision" then. Its not like one day the Jesuits showed up and took control. Many of the priests/teachers/administrators, who had joined the priesthood as Jesuits before the group was suppressed, rejoined the Jesuits when the society was revived by Leonard Neale in 1805. The early relationship between the school (then in dire need of money) and the society was negotiated out in correspondence between Neale (and later his brother) and Carroll over the following years. So the date of some formal affiliation with the Jesuits is not really a specific one you can pin down. It all makes teasing out the relationship between the school and the Society of Jesus a tricky job, but that itself is part of the founder's legacy. However, since this relationship is the topic of much discussion, perhaps the bit in the history section can be elaborated on better.
• The use of bold in your intro might be problematic. The name certainly has evolved, but I'm not sure where "College of George Town" is from. In Carroll's early letters he references the Academy at George-Town, and other iterations, and when it started out, the college was just the level for the older kids, after "elementary" and "preparatory". Likewise, I'm not sure the name "President and Directors of Georgetown College" needs to be mentioned, since that was only for the administration, and its not like anyone used that name to refer to the whole school.
• The specific numbers in the intro might be problematic. Summary style usually doesn't go for specific figures, since they change frequently, and its better to get words that say it. I'm not sure if 56 (where'd you get that, the page still says 59) is actually the number of Jesuits on campus right now. The website we reference for example still lists the late Father King, who passed away last year, so others may have come and gone. The line in the text should probably have an "as of 2009" preface. Likewise I'm not sure about the number of countries/states. However, the number or programs might work, but its probably not necessary and I don't know what it tells the reader.
• Some of the wording is a little flowery. I note "don Union blue and Confederate gray". There's also some overlinking, for example with dates, which are rarely linked on Wikipedia these days, but also words like "countries", "bishop", or "incorporated" wouldn't generally be linked. And I do not think we could get by with "especially well regarded", that would be removed or changed by more critical users quite quickly.
• Also no teams are actually currently in the ECAC. Only the men's lacrosse team was, until last year when it left. The rowing team is in the EARC and EAWRC, which are in turn affiliated with the ECAC.
• I don't know about Healy status as an African American. There's was a good article in the Voice recently about this issue, and we changed his footnote accordingly. Though I'm guilty of doing this, to use African American is very anachronistic, applying a modern category to him. Besides that, I don't even think his status as the first black phD (or even university president) should be noted in the intro. Its not really the place.
• And Jose Barroso didn't finish his Georgetown phD as I understand it, so he doesn't really get mentioned among the alumni here, except in broad terms.

So those are my concerns right now. I hope you have some tough skin, I realize I'm biting a new user pretty hard with some of that criticism. However, I can only see good things coming out of this discussion.-- Patrick {_oѺ^∞} 06:04, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Will one of you put this in an appropriate sandbox? I don't know how to do that, unless you just mean to dump it on my user page somewhere. ...

Patrick, thanks for your comments. Let me reply to the points of fact and style your brought up. I didn't mean to do anything controversial, so let's get these out of the way to start:

• I think correctly portraying the affiliation with the Jesuits is very important. The university claims, "With the partial restoration of the Society of Jesus in 1805, the order was given the direction of the institution", and the Catholic Encyclopedia quotes the Laity's Directory in writing, "Since the year 1805, it has been under the direction of Society of Jesus." The Bicentennial History offers more detail, clarifying that five of the ten priests at the school rejoined the Jesuits in 1805 and "John Carroll began the process of formally entrusting Georgetown College to the order." Maybe we could change the sentence in the introduction to something vague like "After the restoration of the Society of Jesus in 1805, the college was entrusted to the Jesuits; a decade later it was conferred civil recognition as the first congressionally chartered college." Then we can flesh out the details in the history section and in the separate history article. Clearly you know quite a bit about this, so hopefully we can find something that works without getting too prolix.
• I used boldface in the way I understood to be the correct style—for alternative names and synonyms—but I very well may have misused it. "The College of George Town" (or George-Town, hyphenated) is the name and spelling I have seen invariably used in early documents from after the founding (e.g., the prospectus of 1798 reads "The College of George-Town", etc.). More importantly, that is exactly how it appears on the federal charter of 1815, which I believe remains the legal authority under which the university confers degrees. "The President and Directors of Georgetown College" is the name under which the institution is legally incorporated. I suppose you could argue that's a detail that need not appear in the intro, but I already had occasion to mention the governing structure in discussing the university's relation to the Jesuits and the Church in general, so I thought it a significant enough detail to slide in.
• I took the number of Jesuits from the same source, the Jesuit Community's webpage, and it looks like my 56 was a typo and should be 59. Agreed that the precise number doesn't need to appear in the intro; I wrote it that way simply because it was a more concise way of saying "a bunch of Jesuits live there as well". I am having trouble thinking of a vague phrase that could be readily interpreted as "about 60." ...
• "don Union blue and Confederate gray" can perhaps be excised. I wrote it like that because mentioning the school colors seems appropriate and the addition of just two words, "Union" and "Confederate", alludes quite directly to their history.
• My mistake on the ECAC. Since the Big East is the university's affiliation for most varsity sports, I think it will suffice to say something simple like, "Georgetown's student-athletes compete in 23 varsity sports in the Big East and other conferences."
• I've read that Voice article on Healy and a lot of other stuff besides. The scholarship says his mother was a mixed-race slave, but that he likely did not think of himself as "black" and was only portrayed as such by the university years after his death; you'll note that I did not write "African American", though I did link to that topic; I wrote "American of African descent" to try to be wholly factual while skirting the issue of racial identity.
• I included Barosso because of his inclusion on the Wikipedia alumni page, where he is noted as having received the degree of MSFS in 1998. Looking at his CV on the EC's site, I think that is likely incorrect because he claims to have been teaching at Georgetown from 1996-8. So we should probably remove him from the intro and the alumni page.
• As for noting "well regarded" programs, my main desire is to point out which of Georgetown's programs are regarded as its strongest or which it is most known for. I think that's a point of interest to readers and that we should be able to find a way to convey that information without too much controversy if we word it in such a way as to avoid claiming certain programs are strong in some absolute sense or in relation to other universities'. As those of us familiar with the university are aware, there's certainly a sense that it is strong in some areas and not in others.

Anyway, on to the next round? Let's get this up somewhere we can edit it together so that we can rework things directly rather than just chat about them. Thanks again for the comments. —Feis-Kontrol (talk) 14:16, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

(Note: This was moved from Talk:Georgetown University. ElKevbo (talk) 15:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC))

ElKevbo's grammatical and stylistic edits

Georgetown University is a private, co-educational university whose main campus is located in the Georgetown neighborhood of Washington, D.C.. The oldest Catholic college in the United States, Georgetown provides instruction to students in 180 programs in four undergraduate schools, three graduate and professional schools, and several specialized institutes. The university's programs in international affairs and law are especially well regarded.

The foundation of the College of George Town in 1789 by John Carroll, later the nation's first bishop, realized efforts dating from 1634 to establish a Roman Catholic college in the province of Maryland. The college was placed under the supervision of the Society of Jesus in 1815, the same year that it was conferred civil recognition as the nation's first congressionally chartered college. Although small in its early years, Georgetown grew after the American Civil War into a modern university under the leadership of Patrick Francis Healy, the first African American to earn a doctorate and direct a university.

Although it is home to 56 Jesuits, Georgetown is governed independently of the order and of Church authorities. In recent years, fewer than half of Georgetown's undergraduate students have identified as Catholic. The tensions between the university's commitments to its Catholic and Jesuit heritage and to academic freedom and between Catholic doctrine and students' secular lifestyles have sometimes caused controversy on campus and within the broader Catholic community.

Georgetown's students, who in most years hail from all 50 states and more than 130 countries, are known for their political activism. Notable for their leadership in government, Georgetown's alumni include former U.S. president Bill Clinton as well as the present heads of state or of government of six countries and the European Commission. Georgetown's student-athletes, known as the Hoyas, don Union blue and Confederate gray to compete in the Big East Conference and the Eastern College Athletic Conference in 23 varsity sports. The men's basketball team has reached the Final Four five times, winning the national championship in 1984, and produced dozens of NBA players.

Here are my initial suggested edits. They're mostly stylistic in nature with an effort to trim unnecessary verbage. ElKevbo (talk) 15:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for moving the page, ElKevbo. I think the last paragraph will be the easiest to get right, so let's see if we can knock that out (below). —Feis-Kontrol (talk) 16:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Last Paragraph

This seems easy, so let's see if we can get it done.

I've removed the reference to the president of the European Commission (Barroso); as per the discussion above, his inclusion among Georgetown's alumni seems to be erroneous. I've also removed the reference to the ECAC as discussed previously, and incorporated ElKevbo's suggested changes above. And that's basically it:

Georgetown's students, who in most years hail from all 50 states and around 130 countries, are known for their political activism. Notable for their leadership in government, Georgetown's alumni include former U.S. president Bill Clinton as well as the current heads of state or government of six countries. The university's student-athletes, nicknamed the Hoyas, don Union blue and Confederate gray to compete in 23 varsity sports in the Big East and other conferences. The men's basketball team has reached the Final Four five times, winning the national championship in 1984, and has produced dozens of NBA players.

That's down to 97 words from the previous 111. —Feis-Kontrol (talk) 16:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Patrick's version

Hey, just wanted to add my cents in here, though a bit late. I'm trying to combine the current introduction with the ones you two have worked up. Let me know what you think!-- Patrick {_oѺ^∞} 20:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Georgetown University is a private, Jesuit university whose main campus is located in the Washington, D.C. neighborhood of Georgetown. The oldest Catholic school in the United States, Georgetown administers 180 programs in four undergraduate schools, three graduate and professional schools, and several specialized institutes. The university's programs in international affairs and law are especially well regarded. Georgetown's three urban campuses feature traditional collegiate architecture and layout, but prize their green spaces and environmental commitment. The main campus is known for Healy Hall, a designated National Historic Landmark.

Father John Carroll founded the school in 1789, realizing efforts dating from 1634 to establish a Roman Catholic college in the province of Maryland. Georgetown expanded into a branched university after the American Civil War under the leadership of university president Patrick Francis Healy. Although not a pontifical school, Jesuits have been officially involved in running the school since 1805, and the institution defines its identity in significant part through its religious heritage. Tensions between this heritage and the school's support for academic freedom and its students lifestyles have sometimes caused controversy on campus and within the broader Catholic community.

The university is co-educational and has around 7,000 undergraduate students, and over 8,000 post-graduate students, who in most years come from all 50 U.S. states and over 120 countries. Campus groups include the nation's oldest student theater group and the largest student-run business. Georgetown's most notable alumni have served in various levels of government in the United States and abroad, such as former Philippine President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia and former U.S. President Bill Clinton. The Georgetown athletics teams are named "the Hoyas", made famous most prominently by their men's basketball team, which leads the Big East Conference with seven tournament championships.

Patrick, I think that's an big improvement in most regards over the present introduction. I'd support using it, but there are a few ambiguities and errors that I see:

• Georgetown is the oldest Catholic institution of higher learning in the U.S., not the the oldest Catholic school of any sort. Spanish missionaries established schools in areas that later became parts of the United States prior to 1789; at least one of these, Ursuline Academy, a school for girls in New Orleans, still exists. So it's important to clarify the point; I think it makes sense to write that Georgetown is the oldest "Catholic college".
• Nobody is going to know what a "pontifical school" is, which is why I explicitly discussed how Georgetown is governed in relation to Church authorities.
• I don't see why Carroll and Healy should be mentioned by name if we're not going to add an appositive mentioning why they're historically significant. They are not so well known that mentioning them by name alone adds anything to the introduction.

I would also like to avoid the tautological construction in the opening sentence of "Georgetown University is a ... university." Can we think about rewriting it as something like:

Georgetown University, whose main campus is located in the Georgetown neighborhood of Washington, D.C., is the oldest Catholic college in the United States. A private research university affiliated with the Society of Jesus, Georgetown administers 180 programs ..., etc.

—Feis-Kontrol (talk) 13:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can avoid a tautological sentence there. The first sentence is made to be the same as other university articles, which also go "Foo University is a coeducational, public/private research university in Footown, USA", and that's something you also see in all the FA university articles. So I think we should start off like that. Otherwise, we can surely say something about Carrol, but its what to say about Healy without saying something too contentious? Perhaps "Healy, who was born a slave by law, rose to become university president and is considered the school's second founder", which is similar to how its put in the article text.-- Patrick {_oѺ^∞} 19:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

So I guess here's what that would look like:

Georgetown University is a private, Jesuit university whose main campus is located in the Washington, D.C. neighborhood of Georgetown. The oldest Catholic university in the United States, Georgetown administers 180 programs in four undergraduate schools, three graduate and professional schools, and several specialized institutes. The university's programs in international affairs and law are especially well regarded. Georgetown's three urban campuses feature traditional collegiate architecture and layout, but prize their green spaces and environmental commitment. The main campus is known for Healy Hall, a designated National Historic Landmark.

Father John Carroll, the first bishop in the United States, founded the school in 1789, realizing efforts dating from 1634 to establish a Roman Catholic college in the province of Maryland. Georgetown expanded into a branched university after the American Civil War under the leadership of Patrick Francis Healy. Healy was born a slave by law, but rose to become university president and is considered the school's second founder. Though governed independently of church authorities or the order, Jesuits have been officially involved in running the school since 1805, and the institution defines its identity in significant part through its religious heritage. Tensions between this heritage and the school's support for academic freedom and its students lifestyles have sometimes caused controversy on campus and within the broader Catholic community.

The university is co-educational and has around 7,000 undergraduate students, and over 8,000 post-graduate students, who in most years come from all 50 U.S. states and over 120 countries. Campus groups include the nation's oldest student theater group and the largest student-run business. Georgetown's most notable alumni have served in various levels of government in the United States and abroad, such as Costa Rican president Laura Chinchilla, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia and former U.S. President Bill Clinton. The Georgetown athletics teams are named "the Hoyas", made famous most prominently by their men's basketball team, which leads the Big East Conference with seven tournament championships.

So let me know if this can go up.-- Patrick {_oѺ^∞} 19:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I think it's fine. Much better than what we have now, anyway. I'll give my suggested final version below and support whatever amalgam you want to put up:

Georgetown University, whose main campus is located in the Georgetown neighborhood of Washington, D.C., is the oldest Catholic college in the United States. A private research university affiliated with the Society of Jesus, Georgetown comprises four undergraduate schools, three graduate and professional schools, and several specialized institutes; the university's programs in international affairs and law are especially well regarded. Its main campus is notable for Healy Hall, a National Historic Landmark.

Georgetown's founding in 1789 by John Carroll, later the first American bishop, realized efforts dating from 1634 to establish a Roman Catholic college in the province of Maryland. The school expanded into a branched university after the American Civil War under the leadership of Patrick Francis Healy, the first American of African descent to earn a doctorate and to head a university. Georgetown emphasizes its Catholic and Jesuit traditions, but the university has always been governed independently of church authorities and today fewer than half of its students are Catholic. Students' secular lifestyles and tensions between Georgetown's religious heritage and its commitment to academic freedom have sometimes caused controversy on campus and within the broader Catholic community.

The university is co-educational and has around 7,000 undergraduate and 8,000 post-graduate students, who in most years come from all 50 U.S. states and some 120 countries. Campus groups include the nation's oldest student dramatic society and the largest student-run business. Georgetown's most notable alumni have served in leadership positions in government in the United States and abroad; among them are former U.S. President Bill Clinton, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, and the current heads of state or government of six countries. The university's athletics teams are called the "Hoyas" and include a men's basketball team well known for reaching five Final Fours and leading the Big East Conference with seven tournament championships.

I've made most of these points previously, but I'll note again that the differences between my version and yours are because I believe that:

• the most encyclopedically relevant fact about Georgetown is that it is the first Catholic college established in the U.S., so I think that should be in the first sentence.
• there's no need to follow the inane construction used in the opening sentence of articles for other universities. This is not the Simple English version of Wikipedia. There is no justification for insisting on the "Noun is noun" construction when something else offers better readability and the flexibility to better introduce the topic of the article.
• the bit about traditional campus quadrangles and green spaces is of too little importance to include in the introduction and anyway is factually dubious—Georgetown has little green space compared to many other universities, and one of its three campuses, the Medical Center, has no green space at all but for a small patch of grass in front of St. Mary's. We shall not mention the desert campus of SFS Qatar.
• Healy was of African descent. There is no controversy about that fact. Anyway, his own article and many others call him "African American", so if there's something controversial about saying that, it should be taken up there first.

Otherwise, my changes are mainly stylistic. So let's do this. —Feis-Kontrol (talk) 02:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, I do think there is an expected format for first sentences across Wikipedia, and its not particularly the place for any passive voice or comma phrases like that. Also I have to disagree that Georgetown is most notable for being old. Its notable because its an active university. Also that basically says "Georgetown University... is [a] college", which I think would be further confusing readers, and I think we need to stick to the term "university". I also want simple construction in the sentence on 1789, so I'd much prefer "X founded Georgetown in Y...". Those are sentences that want clarity and to be definitive.

The percentages on religion are generally unreliable. There was an article in a Catholic magazine from around 2000 that claimed 55% Catholic, and a survey by the student run diversity group two years ago, which is the number we use later in the article, but that study had several inconsistencies and didn't make a division between "practicing religion" or not, just self-identity. So I don't want to make a definitive statement about the number of "Catholic students" in the introduction. Anyway, those studies only ever looked at a section of the undergrads, while graduate students, which are the greater number, have never been surveyed as far as I know.

I don't mind loosing the sentence about green spaces specifically, but I do want a sentence about the layout or style of the campuses in general. In a sense, university articles are also architecture articles about the design, use, and history of a certain group of buildings, and any space between those buildings. Perhaps something like "Campuses are laid out using quadrangles and rectangular lawns, with various facilities for research, sports, housing, and dining." Perhaps there's an adjective like "colonial red brick" or "neo-romanesque" which could be inserted there or in the sentence about Healy Hall.

Even university publications now shy away from those claims about Healy. He may have been the first black president of a primarily white school, but not the first black university president in general. And its a bit of a Wikipedia fallacy to say "well that article says this, so...", but I do think the "born a slave" phrasing is a good way of avoiding claims of African decent or being the "first" anything. I have looked for sources to claim Healy being the first black president, and there just aren't any good modern ones. Again this is a current Featured Article, and I'd like to keep it at that standard.-- Patrick {_oѺ^∞} 20:56, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The "well-regarded" part is a bit of an issue, since it's sort of a general term and not very specific. It's better for this sort of thing to say "are ranked in the top 20" or something like that which is definable, with suitable references. --AW (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I did note that above, that I expected "well regarded" to be quickly changed or challenged by other editors. I welcome any suggestions. It used to state that there were "notable programs and faculty in (various fields)", which was a wording that was much contested by several anonymous editors.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 19:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC)