User talk:FatalError/Christian music debate

So since the "Christian music debate" has spread to many articles now, I thought it would be nice to have a page to center the debate on. Jpers36 is working on a proposal to add a guideline to the genre section of the infobox, as seen here. Until then, share your thoughts about "Christian whatever" versus just "whatever". The main points I want to address are:

• Is religion part of the genre? In other words, do religious lyrics affect the band's musical genre? Is there such a thing as "Christian music"?
• What do we do about the sources that specifically call a band Christian rock/metal? Do we ignore them?

Thanks for participating.

I'll share my thoughts after I see some more viewpoints. — ^FatalError 21:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to think about this for a little while. I have mixed feelings about it and I'm not real sure what I think right now. Landon1980 (talk) 00:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you think we should invite User:IronCrow? I know he says he's in retirement but maybe he still monitors things silently. He has strong feelings regarding this and I would like for his opinion to at least be heard. Landon1980 (talk) 12:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Do we really have to do this again? Was anoying enough to debate this with him, over and over again. Do lyrics really matter that much? I mean we don't call Killswitch "romantic metalcore" or Shai Hulud "misanthropic metalcore" and we also don't call bands by their faith, I mean there's no "atheist metalcore" or "agnostic metalcore". Besides theres no article made for "christian metalcore", it will redirect to metalcore, so isn't that silly enough put "christian metalcore" instead of metalcore, but you know if you click that link it will bring you to the article that you are trying to avoid?

Template:Infobox Musical artist: "The genre or genres of music performed by the act. Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop)." And that means metalcore rather than "christian metalcore".--Kmaster (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

So far all i can say is that we should really, just listen to the memebers of the bands say. If the band saids they aren't a christian rock band or christian metal. Then so be it we can't change their minds, this is somthing that they feel is right. I myself am a christian, and i belive that if a band is christian then so be it and if they aren't then so be it. I just sick of the "oh underoath is so christian." " oh my god no underoath isn't christian!", or "Anberlin is christian." and then someone saids "are you crazy they said themselfs they aren't christian!". Honstely to me if a band is christian the by all means put it as their genre, but if their not then just leave it the way it is. Thank you all. Skateremorocker (talk) 22:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Alright, well then I'll share my piece. Skateremorocker, your argument doesn't work simply because, on Wikipedia, the band's opinion of themselves does not matter. However, reliable sources do, and Kmaster, this is where I disagree with you. While I feel it isn't really "right" to put the religion next to the genre, and I completely understand your argument, I feel that this is against Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. Wikipedia is supposed to go by what the sources say, and here we're doing the complete opposite and completely ignoring them. There are an overwhelming number of sources that specifically call Underoath and As I Lay Dying "Christian metalcore" bands. I totally understand the whole "Atheist/Mormon/whatever rock" argument, but when was the last time you saw a music magazine say, "So-and-so, the Mormon rock group from Utah"? The fact is that those labels are not popular among reliable sources; however, the "Christian" label is, which is why I feel we have no choice but to go with what the sources say and change the genres to "Christian metalcore". — ^FatalError 02:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying that we should ignore a band's faith. For me, this form of paragraph is totally ok "As I Lay Dying is a christian metalcore band." See?, you can still have the source citing them as a "christian metalcore" band. (Although they're not IMO, but well, your or our opinion doesn't matter when there's sources saying the opposite thing. Sadly, this is how wikipedia works.) This is not right: "As I Lay Dying is a christian metalcore, because you are confusing a band's musical genre/style with their faith. Please read the christian hardcore article. First paragraph: "Christian hardcore refers to hardcore punk and metalcore bands that promote Christian beliefs." That's completely correct. In no sentece you can find "christian hardcore sounds different than hardcore punk." There's not even a musical genre infobox, because, it is not different from hardcore punk. (BTW, Christian metal is not a genre either, that article is a complete original research IMHO. Many people have tried to tell the "Christian metal" Wikiproyect members that such genre doesn't exist, but you can see on its talk page, you just can't argue with a whole group of christians against you, so I will not try to change that article.) Oh, and, aren't you violating a wikipedia policy by placing "Christian metalcore" in the infobox? Sounds a little bit silly, but you are. Let me quote (again): Template:Infobox Musical artist: "The genre or genres of music performed by the act. Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop)." --Kmaster (talk) 03:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

And, "christian metalcore" is not listed on metalcore subgenres or fusion genres, and it's a disambiguation page. It's like liking to a dead link. Wouldn't that be against Wikipedia policies?--Kmaster (talk) 03:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

"...you are confusing a band's musical genre/style with their faith." And apparently, so is the majority of the media. However, we editors are at mercy to what the media says, so if they decide that a band's faith has something to do with their genre, we have no choice but to reflect that in the band's article. Now, please note that everything I've said so far was about the actual article content, not the infobox. I agree that "Christian metalcore" should not be placed in the infobox for many reasons; one of them being, as you stated, the "Aim for generality" rule, but also the fact that the article doesn't even exist. However, I do believe we should put it into the lead sentence. The reason for this is that the infobox is supposed to give a general overview of what style of music the band plays, but the actual article has to be much more specific. Also, like I said before, we can't ignore the sources, so we have to put "Christian metalcore" somewhere, right? We don't have to link it to the Christian metalcore page, we can just link metalcore and have Christian unlinked (or link it to a separate page). For example, "As I Lay Dying is a Christian metalcore band." However, my point is that "Christian" must be there. The only exception I can think of is if the article has some kind of Christian faith or Musical styles section, in which case we don't necessarily need it. — ^FatalError 06:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, i've read all of your comments on this (sorry i'm late, I've been busy) and i'm not sure what to say. Personally, I think you all make very good points, Their really isn't much difference in "Christain Metalcore" and "Metalcore" except for maybe the style of the lyrics. But, i'm going have to agree with Fatal Error on this one. Most of the sources do use the term "Christain Metalcore." As a matter of fact, everything i've ever seen on Underoath, save for one or two websites, calls them a Christain Metalcore band. I'm not saying you should put it in the infobox or anything. But I do agree with Fatal Error, we can't ignore all of the sources that say they're Christain Metalcore, no matter what are personal beleafs are. I'm for the Christian Metalcore tag personally, but that's not the point. Long story short, almost all the media, and most of the people I know use the Christian Metalcore tag. I agree, we don't have to put it in the infobox, but we should put it in the article. Emo777 (talk) 07:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with FatalError, "Christian metalcore" or "Christian metalcore" is completely ok, that's what I wanted to mean, However, we were talking about the infobox, and I agree with FatalError again, it stays as metalcore. Well, kinda odd but all the media, fans and people here call them only a metalcore band.--Kmaster (talk) 17:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I feel that before the Christian tag is added the source needs to definitively call the band a 'Christian_____' band, not just a Christian band, for example: "Christian band _____ was founded..." What are we going to do when some reliable sources call a band a metalcore band while others call them a Christian metalcore band? You also have to use common sense with the source in question. I've seen a lot of sources say 'Christian___' then go on and call the band just a '____' band in the actual review. Usually you can tell if the source is is referring to genre or just religion. I think that if the majority of the sources label the band a 'Christian_____' band then the tag/genre/whatever should be added but only in the lead sentence not the infobox. Landon1980 (talk) 20:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Christian metalcore is a type of metalcore, so I don't see the problem with being specific. That's like saying, if a source mentions that a band is alternative rock, but also states that they are a rock band, we should use just rock, not alternative. I don't think it matters if they are talking about the religion; if they put "Christian metalcore", we have to also put "Christian metalcore". I believe this is a problem with Wikipedia's guidelines, which is why I really hope Jpers36's proposal goes through, but until then we have to use what we've got. However, I completely agree with the fact that the source must explicitly say "Christian metalcore" (or whatever genre), because otherwise the editor is making an assumption, which is against Wikipedia's policy on synthesis. If the source doesn't specifically say that the band plays Christian music, but says they are a Christian band, we cannot put "Christian" next to the genre. — ^FatalError 23:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, 'Christian metalcore' is a type of metalcore, but not 'Christian' metalcore. To be honest I'm tired of discussing this over and over, if I say anything else I'll just be repeating myself. The truth is what we all decide on one little corner of Wikipedia isn't really going to solve anything anyways. Landon1980 (talk) 00:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Your most-likely right, what we decide might not solve anything, this is a very controversal issue and there is always going to be some sort of argument over this. The problem, I think, is that the sources aren't specific enough. Some say "Christain Metalcore" then call the band "Metalcore" through the whole review, while others do the opposite. Honestly, I'm not sure wheather or not this will change things, but I don't think we should ignore it. I'm not saying we change the infobox in anyway, we can keep it as just Metalcore, but I think we should put Christain Metalcore somewhere in the article, otherwise aren't we ignoring sources? Emo777 (talk) 06:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

well it really depends bands like kutless, Third Day, Pillar are bands that go out and say that "yes we are a complety a christian group". Then their are bands that go around it and say like " we are all christian in the band, but our music isn't". Somthing that Underoath, or Anberlin would say. so i mean if anything add to a bands pages like underoath were it says the band has christian memebers, but if their music isn't christian, or they say they aren't a christian band then don't add it to the genre.Skateremorocker (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Once again, it doesn't matter what the band says they are or are not. See WP:RS notice the third-party part. Landon1980 (talk) 20:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, things have come up that i've had to take care of. Anyway, I don't see why we can't do what Skateremorocker says. I know what the band says don't count (parden country accent) but it's like I said before, some articles call them both Metalcore and Christain Metalcore. Since the sources aren't specific enough I don't see why we can't use the bands statments. I mean, bands like August Burns Red who say they're Christains but their music isn't we could list as plain Metalcore, while bands like War of Ages who say that they're muisc is Christain we could list as Christain Metalcore, it seems easier that way, since sources aren't specific enough. Emo777 (talk) 17:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Because that's against Wikipedia's policies. I don't see how you can say that the "sources aren't specific enough." It's not like metalcore and Christian metalcore are contratictory; just because they call them metalcore doesn't mean they aren't Christian metalcore, or vice versa. Either way, though, I think Landon is right in that we won't change anything on Wikipedia with this debate. I think until the policies on this change (if they do), we should just honor the sources and say exactly what the sources say. If they say a band is a Christian metalcore band, we have to put that in the article. — ^FatalError 19:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

No intention to take part in the debate, but just wanted to throw that out there : Viking metal and Unblack metal are two musical movements (not necessarily musical genres) where the lyrics are the criteria (Norse mythology & legends and Christianity, respectively). You might want to include that in the scope of the decision, if one is taken by the end of the debate. Zouavman Le Zouave 21:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I've done a lot of thinking about this lately and a couple things bother me. Particularly when we tell IP's they are vandalizing when they add Christian metalcore, especially the recent IP saying "the sources say Christian metalcore" in the edit summary. The sources do say that and if we are going to use those sources don't we need to concur with them? A lot of sources call Underoath simply metalcore as well, so I'm not sure what is the most neutral. What do you think? I think that is some sources say '______' and other sources say 'Christian whatever' the only fair thing to do is make a detailed musical styles section. If nothing else if we are going to keep it metalcore we need to change the sources in my opinion. Landon1980 (talk) 04:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Like I said before, metalcore and Christian metalcore are not mutually exclusive. If some sources say metalcore, but some say Christian metalcore, the latter are just being more specific. It's the exact same thing as one source saying rock, but another saying alternative rock. Which one would you cite? If there are no sources specifically saying that the band is not a Christian metalcore band, and there is more than one reliable source putting the "Christian ____" label on them, then I believe we have to put Christian metalcore in the article. — ^FatalError 18:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You don't know that the latter is just being more specific. There is a difference between metalcore and Christian metalcore, both metalcore but there is a difference. We have to take the sources at face value we can't assume they mean something when they don't actually say it. Landon1980 (talk) 21:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I kinda agree with Landon1980, There is a difference between Metalcore and Christain Metalcore. I mean, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't see the difference in calling a metalcore band with christain members Christain Metalcore than calling a Black Metal band with christain members Unblack Metal. Isn't it the same sistuation? I mean, Christain Metalcore is used to describe a metalcore band with Christain members, just like Unblack Metal is for black metal. Emo777 (talk) 07:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

After reading over the debate, this is very similar to arguments over whether a band is emo or not. My Chemical Romance, Fall Out Boy, and Panic at the Disco have often been labeled 'emo' but many disagree with that. So "musical style and influences" sections were created to solve that issue. If there is controversy over whether a band is "Metalcore" or "Christian metalcore" then this approach should be taken. However, the infobox should only list genre, to comply with the guideline "aim for generality". Now, just to throw it out there, so as to not frame this debate into "christian vs. other music", there is an article on National Socialist black metal. --Pwnage8 (talk) 14:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Christian metalcore is not a genre, is an ideology. Eg. Unblack metal. "Like National Socialist black metal, it is viewed as an ideology, not a subgenre, as there is no distinct "style" to play black metal in a Christian way." taken from Black_metal#Unblack_metal--Kmaster (talk) 15:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The issue is whether a band is labeled as such, not if it's a genre or not. --Pwnage8 (talk) 23:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Kmaster I don't mean any disrespect when I say this but aren't you an Atheist? According to your User page you are. I don't mean to attack your beleafs or anything but I don't think you're keeping an open mind about this. I mean, you've only ever attacked the Christain labels, I kinda get the feeling you're not wanted to debate if it should be added or not. Again, I don't mean anything bad, sorry if it offends you. I agree with Pwnage8 though, this is very simular to the debates of weather a band is labeled emo or not. I'm really not seeing any solution here. The emo and Christain debates have been going on forever, why can't things be simple for once? Emo777 (talk) 00:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

And you're Christian and you're defending Christian metalcore, but is that relevant? No --Kmaster (talk) 01:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

i really don't know any more, but i think that labeling Bands Christian Metalcore, Or whatever, and their music isn't christian, then it shouldn't be on the genre. Now if the band our sources say that the band is christian and their lyics are complete christian then label them christian. So if a source, or a the band says somthing like "we are all christians in a band, but our music is about life etc, etc,. Then their genre shouldn't be christian. But if it's something like "we are all christians and we write our music for the lord" then by all means Slap Christian Punk, or Christian Hardcore to there genre.Skateremorocker (talk) 23:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I personally think that is a good idea, i've suggested it before. But there is some problems with it. When it comes to a band like August Burns Red that say that they aren't Christain Metalcore than it's easy. But bands like Underoath and As I lay dying dont say it that way, people assume they do. As I lay dying said "we're all christain's, we're in a band, does that not make us a christain band?" and people said that means that they're not, I don't know how they got that, it sounds to me that they said they are. While Underoath said "we're a chirstain band, but in a different way," so people say that they're not. But they've all said at several of their concerts that they are a christain band that stands up there in the name of Jesus Christ. So yeah, I think they should be labeled because they said that. But other people say other stuff, then others say something else, then you have another confusing genre war. It's kinda annoying, but yeah, I think someone needs to make the genre box more specific. Emo777 (talk) 05:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Why would I have wanted to have been part of this "debate?" This is a topic I've studied for years and care deeply about, but it doesn't matter one bit. It seems as though that there was no resolution other than "well, we're in the same boat." Landon continues taking "Christian" out of bands that exclusively state it (or have been described as such numerous times, see: Thousand Foot Krutch), random individuals will put Christian tags on bands that are not as such, and others will put in paragraphs in band articles saying that they are/aren't when they aren't/are. The way I see it, it doesn't matter what happens because there's going to be a hell in the discussion pages anyways. Since I'm retired from Wikipedia, I'm not going to edit these myself, and I've made the mistake of editing pages while retired anyways. The end result is the same thing: someone's going to game the system on this, regardless of their point of view, and no amount of wiki-jargon is going to make readers think other wise. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Sad... but true. People are always going to game the system. Wikipedia is flawed and will always be flawed. But I don't care about any of that. I don't care if no one will lision, I still have my believes. I believe that music can be Christian. I care as much about what Landon or Kmaster says as they care about what I say, which is none. I believe in God, I believe that music can be used to show how much I love and worship him. I don't care what they say, I don't care if they think i'm an idoit. I stopped fighting with them over this when they left, but I will still to this day tell them they're wrong. I know that hundreds of people use the Christian music label off of Wikipedia, I don't care what they say about it, cause I don't personally think that they are smarter than the thousands that use the label. And I will still support it, I've even turned my page into a refuge for it. And it will stay that way. Sources use the Christain music label, yet Wikipedia dosen't. Wikipedia is created through sources, and this is just one example of how biased wikipedia has become. The users here have no right to put in their own opinions in place of sources. The sources say Christain music does exist, saying it dosen't is just the users putting in their own opinions. Emo777 (talk) 18:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)