User talk:Fabien Gatti

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Yes, thanks. I have fixed it. Gatti fabien1 (talk) 09:57, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

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I have fixed it: it is the conductor of course. Thanks for the message --Gatti fabien1 (talk) 09:27, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

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Edit summaries on René Guenon

With edits that may be seen as potentially controversial (I know nothing about this person so I cannot say), a good edit summary is required, but be careful, you are making them so long they are being truncated, so people can't fully understand the points you are making. In short: make 'em shorter. Thanks, ^{My name is}not^dave (talk/contribs) 16:59, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

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The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times

Hello Fabien Gatti, I see that there is a debate about possibly merging the article about the book with that of the author. If needed, I could draft something into english and let you review it. Please let me know....--DDupard (talk) 18:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi DDupard. Yes, it can be a very good idea! --Fabien Gatti (talk) 18:38, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

@Fabien Gatti: Intro ....

The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times is a book by René Guénon published in 1945. The book purports to give a comprehensive explanation, based on tradition, of the cyclical conditions that led to the modern world in general and to the Second World War in particular. The book was published with the support of Jean Paulhan from Gallimard, who created a collection exclusively dedicated to the "Tradition" in order to publish Guénon. The book, corresponded to the mood of the public in the immediate post-war period. It was such a success that it was sold out two month after publication and subsequently had to be quickly reissued twice. ... !?--DDupard (talk) 19:03, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

It looks perfect except "corresponded to the mood of the public". If English is your mother tongue, which is not my case, it must be fine but, if not, I have the feeling that it should be a little bit reformulated. (The mood of the public sounds like "opinion publique" ou "humeur du public" in French : English readers will understand, but the formulation is perhaps a little bit clumsy). --Fabien Gatti (talk) 19:28, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

public => readers .....

Fabien Gatti, you may want to run it by the user who offered to translate the article from the French, on the debate page, but was a bit hesitant....

public => readers .....

+

== History according to Guénon

For Guénon, History is only the reflection of a vast cosmic process taking its source in a metaphysical dimension (according to his metaphysical doctrine).

From the traditionalist perspective, Time is a purely contingent notion of the manifested world.

It has obviously been pointed out by several authors that such a conception of History is radically different from that of Hegel, who, on the contrary, locks his, in the sphere of time.

More precisely, as Georges Vallin explains, in Hegel's thought, the timeless mystery of non-duality, of the "coincidence of opposites" found in Guénon, is replaced by "a time-based dialectic of thesis and antithesis". For Vallin, this notion of confinement in time of the human condition, in opposition to the "metaphysical perspective" of Guénon continued with the conception exposed by Martin Heidegger in Being and Time. For Guénon, such a confinement of History in Time, cut off from any transcendent reality, takes on a satanic dimension that explains the fall of the modern world. ....--DDupard (talk) 20:46, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Excellent ! If you add the translation in the article in English, it is necessary to add something in the section "talk" of the article to indicate that it is mainly a translation from the article in French. They told me that is is mandatory. --Fabien Gatti (talk) 20:56, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Fabien Gatti, Tag to include on talk page:

Your move .--DDupard (talk) 21:16, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

It is exactly what we need, indeed. You are very efficient. Perhaps, we should add a sentence here [1] explaining that you are starting the translation. It should conclude the debate. Thanks a lot for your effort ! --Fabien Gatti (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Fabien Gatti, if you wish to do so, that may bring the debate to a halt for a moment.--DDupard (talk) 21:27, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I have added something: [2] I guess it should conclude the debate. Be aware that we need good translators like you  ! The main article has been vandalized and a good solution is to do some translations from French into English (on long term). But of course, just do what you wish and you can. I go to bed soon. I feel exhausted. Cheers --Fabien Gatti (talk) 21:37, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Fabien Gatti

== Impact  ?

After the publication of the book, however, two new movements: communism and existentialism started to penetrate and inform the minds of the intellectual elite . By postulating that "existence precedes essence", Jean-Paul Sartre pushed forward the notions of immanence and "nothing else" described by Guénon in the Reign of Quantity.

Existentialism closed any possible further overture into esotericism that the surrealist movement had, in its own way, previously attempted.--DDupard (talk) 09:43, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Very good: except "communism and existentialism started to penetrate and inform the minds of the intellectual elite" . I would prefer

"communism and existentialism started  to dominate and inform the minds of the intellectual elite in France"

communism was not new: but after WWII, the intellectual life in Paris was dominated by communism and existentialism --Fabien Gatti (talk) 09:46, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes exactly Fabien Gatti, that's a remark I made to myself, If you want to proceed and transfer the text to the article with the appropriate refs and links (Wikif), the rest of the French text is so rich and detailed, it might take some time for me to render it in another language and on top of that , it is Sunday , ie. family and libation day --DDupard (talk) 10:53, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I will do it (but later). Thanks a lot and enjoy your day with your family !!! --Fabien Gatti (talk) 11:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Fabien Gatti, Hello, sorry for not getting back to the translation lately, have been busy with Schuon, do you think that this link [3] would be useful? Most everything mentioned in the French article appears in the table of content?--DDupard (talk) 15:24, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

No problem, there is no hurry. Your link leads to the original text. It is illegal to provide it for free in the US (it is not in the public domain yet). It is legal only in Canada. --Fabien Gatti (talk) 15:34, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, then Fabien Gatti, may be you want to check this one The System of Antichrist: Truth and Falsehood in Postmodernism and the New Age, By Charles Upton, Page 8 and sq, I see a tag for citations on the English page.... --DDupard (talk) 15:54, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I don't know the book. I see on Charles Upton Wikipedia page that he seems to be a follower of Guénon and Schuon. The book must be a critic of New Age movement, which is no surprising. New Age movement claims that thinks will go better and better and that we will reach a new age of spirituality. This is in deep contradiction with Guénon's thought (the same for Schuon) : according to Hindu cosmology, the cycle must finish first and then, in a second step, a new cycle will start with a new golden age for spirituality. The difference is like saying that we will be younger and younger and will become a baby (New Age) and we will be older and older, we will die and then there will be a new birth and we will be again a baby (school of tradition including Guénon and Schuon)... The opposition is not new and Charles Upton seems to have written a book on this subject. --Fabien Gatti (talk) 16:07, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Alternatively , text and ref ?

According to Charles Upton (poet) , in the Reign of Quantity, Guénon sees history in terms of the Hindu concept of the manvantara, the cycle of manifestation composed of Golden, Silver, Bronze and Iron ages; This cycle is an inevitable descent from the pole of Essence (or forma) toward the pole of Substance (or materia). Essence is qualitative while substance is quantitative; As the cycle progresses or descends, the very nature of time and space changes.

In earlier stages, time is relatively eternal, as the cycle moves on, however, time begins to take over and accelerate, but this constant acceleration of time can't go on forever. Time, the "devourer" ends by devouring itself. At the end of time, Time will be changed into space again. This ultimate timeless point is simultaneously the end of the cycle of manifestation and the beginning of the next.

Before this ultimate transformation, in the latter days of the present cycle certain final developments must take place. Since quantity has particularly to do with matter, the Reign of quantity must also be the reign of materialism . The age of miracles ceases , the world becomes less permeable to the influences of the higher planes of reality.

Guénon then reaches an ultimate Eschatological conclusion and warns against the omni present materialism and artificial egalitarianism of the west, seen as symptoms of terminal illness.

---

The System of Antichrist: Truth and Falsehood in Postmodernism and the New Age, By Charles Upton, Sophia Perennis, 2005 - 88 pages Pages 8=>10 False Dawn: The United Religions Initiative, Globalism, and the Quest for a One World Religion, Sophia Perennis, 2004 - 490 pages, By Lee Penn page 436 + On the Origin of Beauty: Ecophilosophy in the Light of Traditional Wisdom By John Griffin,World Wisdom, Inc, 2011 - 283 pages, Page 164 => 166 + The Order of the Ages: The Hidden Laws of World History by Robert Bolton, Angelico Press, Mar 23, 2015 - Philosophy - 294 pages--DDupard (talk) 13:18, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

For info: the current article is categorized with category: articles with specifically marked weasel-worded phrases.....--DDupard (talk) 17:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi DDupard, I am rather busy and very tired. Sorry if I cannot answer rapidly and efficiently to all your comments. The text above is excellent except "Essence is qualitative while substance is quantitative", which is partly wrong. For the whole manifestation, substance (materia) has no property at all and is not quantitative. For our relative world only, the "relative substantial pole" (materia secunda) has one quality, which is quantity (materia signata quantitate). Quantity is by itself a quality (or a property). All the other qualities are in the essential pole. This is the reason why Guénon associates the fall to the substantial pole in the human cycle as a fall to the reign of quantity. I hope I have explained this in the French text clearly. This is a difficult point since we have the impression that there is a complete opposition between quantity and quality, but this is only because in our relative world, the substantial pole has lost all the qualities, but quantity.

Yes the article on Guénon in English has several serious issues including "specifically marked weasel-worded phrases": as said before, the article has been vandalized. We should improve it but as you know I am already very busy with the French version. Best wishes, --Fabien Gatti (talk) 17:27, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Laptop blocked by error

Hi @Defender:

It seems that you have blocked the address of my laptop 192.114.91.230 I don’t know why. I see ‘long-term abuse’ (perhaps my account appas not closed correctly?) Could you unblock it please ? Thanks in advance

Kind regards

Fabien Fabien Gatti (talk) 13:59, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

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