User talk:Eeyen

Welcome to Wikipedia! I was wondering how you knew Tom Eyen was Syrian; we have a mutual friend but I did not know him myself. My friend told me he was Egyptian. He also was assumed to be of Jewish heritage, which I've restored. Sandover 15:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

My name is Eric Eyen. Tom Eyen was my uncle and I am trying to be somewhat of a family historian on his behalf. When the film version of Dreamgirls was released, I had tried to produce a biography for the local press in Ohio, but was dismayed at the lack of information available online, in addition to the misinformation. Your Wikipedia entry was brought to my attention by another family member. I am dedicating myself to keeping Tom's page accurate and more complete. Eeyen 21 January 2007

I'll do my best to help. Your uncle was a fascinating character, and though I did not know him, we in fact share a mutual friend.

As for pronunciation, your surname is pronounced 'EYE-yun,' right? With the emphasis on the first syllable? I think that should be included. Also, would your family consider uploading an image to Wikipedia? Sandover 03:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm really new at this. Eeyen 23 January 2007

Great photos, and thanks. FYI, your uncle was described to me as a 'darker George Gershwin,' and I think that's apt. I'll play with formatting when I have a chance. Sandover 06:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Sandover, would you please email me eeyen@columbus.rr.com and explain your connection to my uncle. Thanks! Eeyen 24 January 2007

Your edits

Hello! I am the editor who created the article about Tom Eyen. While your alleged position as his nephew gives you access to a treasure trove of personal info, most of what you have contributed to the article about him either doesn't meet Wikipedia standards or belongs elsewhere. The detailed info about the stage production and film version of Dreamgirls belong in their respective articles, not here. The entire paragraph about Bette Midler belongs in her article, not here, and even then it requires a citation to prove its accuracy. Furthermore, you have added bits of trivia that can't be substantiated and therefore must be removed. Thanks for your understanding! SFTVLGUY2 20:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not add the Dreamgirls info to this article again as it does not belong here. If you're going to contribute to Wikipedia, please be willing to accept the advice of those who are more experienced than you. If you want to discuss this issue further, feel free to contact me on my talk page, but don't keep reverting material that has no place in this article. Thank you! SFTVLGUY2 15:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

SFTVLGUY2, thanks for creating the article. As I explained above, I had been working on a biography for Tom Eyen because of the current popularity of Dreamgirls, which is undoubtedly Eyen's greatest achievement. I started to write the biography prior to your creation of the article, with the intention of using it to edit Wikipedia. I discovered your entry here with one addition and found it to be inaccurate and unbalanced. I tried to just correct the misinformation and then felt a need to explain the source of the falsehoods (Tom humorously created phony family stories, which ended up printed, which, strangely enough, DOES NOT MAKE THEM TRUE). From your Wikipedia contributions I see that you write about New York theatre, which would explain your emphasis on Eyen's earlier off-Broadway work (Women Behind Bars). The other editor's addition mentioned Eyen's flop (Rachel Lily...) and added false personal information that the writer admits was only heresay. As his nephew,(I included a newspaper reference on my user page) I believe I am more an expert on this topic, but admit to being less experienced at Wikipedia. I appreciate your advice, but you seem to be applying it only to my entries and not your own (citing Divine for "Women Behing Bars", citing Emmett Kelly and Dustin Hoffman for "Ol' Red Head..."), but repeatedly deleting any mention of any Dreamgirls cast members. This is especially bizarre, considering that they are the singers of the songs for which Eyen is most famous, especially Jennifer Holliday's and Jennifer Hudson's renditions of "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going". Why do you think that crediting Eyen's writing of that song and citing the success of the show is inappropriate and only belongs on the Dreamgirls entry, but your own entry for "Women Behind Bars' said it was "a major off-Broadway hit" (actually, "The Dirtiest Show in Town" had a longer run and more international success than "Women Behind Bars") and you provide "trivia" about Divine's character that seems to belong in the show's entry, not the writer's. Perhaps you have a bias toward that work? This is an encyclopedic entry for the world, not the New York theatre district. Tom Eyen is most famous for writing Dreamgirls and the song "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going". I do welcome your help in technical matters, but please refrain from deleting my thoughtful and interesting entries, or at least ask for clarifications or references prior to editing. Thanks! Eeyen 25 February 2007

The mention of Pat Ast and Divine is significant within the context it was made - that Eyen made a name for himself in both avant-garde and mainstream theatre. His awards for Dreamgirls certainly warrant a mention, but a plot summary, cast list, and the recording's standing on the Billboard charts do not. The reason we have blue links in Wikipedia is to allow readers to use them to find out more info about a topic if they so desire. Therefore, if someone is interested in Dreamgirls, a click on that link will bring him to the article where he can read about it in depth. If everyone followed your desired format, then every article in Wikipedia would be endless. You may consider your entries "thoughtfuyl and interesting," but they do not adhere to Wiki standards, so (once again) please refrain from adding info that does not belong here. Thank you! SFTVLGUY2 23:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You may be interested in knowing I saw Rachael Lily Rosenbloom. To this day it remains one of the most memorable theatrical experiences of my life. SFTVLGUY2 23:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

SFTVLGUY2/whoever you are, Yes, it's obvious you're a fan, and I do agree about the historical importance of Tom Eyen's avant-garde stage work, but as an encyclopedic entry, one must consider his global lifetime contribution. He is, without question, most famous for writing the internationally successful musical Dreamgirls, as well as the enduring classic song "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" - PERIOD. To argue that his early stepping-stone work Women Behind Bars is even remotely comparable to that success, shows you have a distorted view of my uncle's career. Furthermore, to argue that Divine is siginficant enough to mention here, but Jennifer Holliday is not, is simply absurd, and undermines your credibility. Both Tom Eyen and Jennifer Holliday are forever linked in their legendary song, whereas Divine is almost exclusively known as John Waters' muse. I wrote about the enduring legacy of Dreamgirls because it is true and I documented that as a measurement of Eyen's success, not the show's. You stated that Women Behind Bars was a major hit, without providing support. Regardless, it is unreasonable to liken the success of a hit Off-Broadway show to even an average Broadway show, and ridiculous to compare it to a Broadway classic such as Dreamgirls. I think that expanding the Women Behind Bars article would be the appropriate place for that information, so please try to adhere to Wikipedia standards or it will be deleted. Actually, I would love to have the experimental theatre section of my article's BACKGROUND segment expanded, with each work separately listed with notes. As for his work as a lyricist, when a songwriter writes a #1 hit, I believe that is relevant, don't you? Furthermore, when a songwriter wins a Grammy, that is relevant, don't you agree? Your interpretation of Wiki standards seems to be self-serving to your bias to pigeon hole Eyen as the avant-garde writer of his early career, and not the successful Broadway lyricist and hit songwriter for which he subsequently became famous. You admit I have a treasure trove of information, but you don't seem to respect my considerable effort expended at providing a comprehensive article on Tom Eyen's entire career and his legacy in it's proper historical perspective. After 25 years, Dreamgirls is still revered as an historical Broadway classic and as a film that is a current box-office smash. Jennifer Holliday's performance of Eyen's "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" is newsworthy even today as she sang it across the street from the Academy Awards ceremony building. Jennifer Hudson just won an Academy Award for playing Effie White, a character Eyen created. And Women Behind Bars is remembered by whom now? for what? and is historically relevant why? Please don't be bitter and quit playing silly games with this entry. You are obviously knowledgeable and want to preserve your opinions for historical sake, but your narrow view of what is relevant seems to be preventing you from seeing what is actually important in a true world-wide historical perspective. Compared to other biographical Wikipedia entries, this one is small, which makes me wonder about your remarks of it being too long. As I said before, I do appreciate your advice on the techical details of Wikipedia, but I don't appreciate your stubborn interference in the content of this article for which you are less an expert. --Eric Eyen 07:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Women Behind Bars, that it was a hit is proven by the info found at the external link for the Lortel Archives. Your obsession with and alleged family connection to Eyen are clouding your understanding of how Wikipedia functions. It is not here to provide you with a forum for a family history including info that you repeatedly have been told belongs in other articles. You are the one who added the info that Eyen was an important factor in starting the off-off-Broadway movement (without any substantiation, by the way). Now you're claiming Eyen's chief claim to fame is Dreamgirls when, in fact, it was the only mainstream hit he had. Taking into account his entire career, he devoted far more time to avant-garde theatre than he did Broadway. Those are the facts, plain and simple. You can't rewrite history.

That Jennifer Holliday sang across the steet from the Kodak Theatre is a sad commentary on the status of her career and has no bearing on Eyen at all. That Jennifer Hudson won the Oscar is testament to her talent and has no bearing on Eyen at all. Please stop trying to credit him with achievements that have nothing to do with him. And the film is not a "box office smash." It just managed to break the $100 million mark after being in release for two months.

Your threatening an established editor with a long track record with deletion of an article that meets Wikipedia standards is indicative of your failure to comprehend how Wikipedia works. Neither your "uncle" nor any of his work other than Dreamgirls existed here before I wrote my articles. You clearly have no interest in Wikipedia other than this article. I suggest you complete the Eyen bio you claim you started if you want to tell things your way. Thank you. SFTVLGUY2 14:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: 1) My point about Women Behind Bars was that it is not historically important when compared to the success of Dreamgirls and should not be placed at the top of the article. Your own words back my side of this argument when you say that Dreamgirls was his only mainstream hit. The one thing he was most famous for was Dreamgirls, not to say that his avant-garde work wasn't important, but his crowning achievement was Dreamgirls and the song "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going". An encyclopedic entry should reflect an artist's greatest achievement. The Off-Broadway and Off-Off Broadway works should be listed in their proper context of the artist's growth as a writer and director. When placed in a timeline, the works makes more sense showing the Off-off Broadway work leading to The Dirtiest Show in Town success, the failed attempt at Broadway with Rachael Lily, leaving NYC to write for TV, return to Off-Broadway with Women Behind Bars, then finally reaching his goal of Broadway success with Dreamgirls. I'm not trying to rewrite history, I'm just trying to put it all into the proper perspective.

2) The point I am trying to make about Holliday and Hudson is that they are both famous for playing a role created by Eyen, and for singing "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going", which was co-written by him. I believe that has bearing on the legacy of Eyen's work. Actually, they are not the only ones to achieve glory on that song. On the most recent American Idol episode, one contestant sang the song last week and was immediately declared the front runner. A 12-year old girl sang the song last summer on "America's Got Talent" and won a million dollars. My contention is that it is not just the singer, but Eyen's song, that is making them successful. Are you contending that song-writers should get no credit for a successful record? That will be news to the organizations that send my family royalty checks every year! Eyen wrote a famous song and top-selling CD that is popular now. That is critical to his Wiki article.

3)The definition of a "blockbuster" movie is $100 million and the film is at $120 million worldwide now and still in its first-run release. The soundtrack hit #1 for 2 weeks, with all but the 4 new songs co-written by Eyen. Why are you obsessed with ignoring the fact that Dreamgirls is a success and that he created the work and should be credited for it? I suppose you think Burt Bacharach should take no credit for Dionne Warwick's success?

4) I have sources for everything I wrote, although they all are not online. A link online isn't necessarily proof of anything either, as I've had to correct info on IMBD about his birthplace (Cambridge, Ohio, not Cambridge, Mass.) and Amazon.com's bio is horribly inaccurate (and cost me $5.99). I worked with the head of the Eyen archives at OSU to get some information and even that had bad info (wrong birth year, like your entry). All this lead me to this effort of getting things right in one place. It's not an obsession, it's a matter of working to get the truth told.

5) Please stop refering to me as a "purported" nephew. Tom Eyen was my father Jim's brother. I have identified myself by name, photograph, email address, newspaper reference, and stated why I am working on this entry, that is, to correct your bias and the other contributor's falsehoods and to provide a comprehensive biography of Tom Eyen on behalf of his estate, of which I am a part. You haven't identified yourself, except that you are experienced with Wikipedia theatre entries. You did start this article, just before I had chance to, but it was described to me as "awful" by those who are most knowledgeable of Eyen's career. I've discussed the situation with many others who "were there" and they agree with my perspective. Please try to be civil and work with me on this. I am trying to improve this Wikipedia entry, not vandalize it. --Eric Eyen 01:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but you can't join a club and then demand its rules and regulations be tailored to fit your needs and desires. This is not an issue about Eyen's relationship to the film version of Dreamship. It's a matter of your refusing to conform to Wikipedia formats. Any info about the film and its subsequent success belongs only in the article about the film. I suggest you look at the articles for other theatre composers and see how many discuss box office receipts and Billboard chart standings. Please look beyond your alleged relationship to Eyen (and yes, it is "alleged") and understand you simply are adding material not considered pertinent by Wikipedia. You claim you're "working to get the truth told," but you're telling it in the wrong place! Add it to the Dreamgirls film article and I'll have no problem with any of it.

Furthermore, comments like "unique camp wit" or the allegation that the success of the Broadway production of Dreamgirls was due primarily to one song and Jennifer Holliday's rendition of it are considered POV (point of view) and definitely are not permitted. This is an encyclopedia, not a blog. Opinions, even if widespread, have no place here.

I have left the reference to Kicks even though it can't be substantiated. However, if you continue to add "facts" with nothing to back them up, they will have to be removed.

I am acquainted with a great many theatre, film, and television personalities. Several months ago, with his blessing, I added info about a gay actor's current relationship to his article. It was removed immediately. When I argued I received the info straight from the proverbial horse's mouth, I was told in no uncertain terms that this did not constitute proof by Wikipedia standards. I accepted this decision and left the issue alone. You need to learn to do the same thing. This website does not exist for your purposes. Thank you. SFTVLGUY2 13:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Tom Eyen article

Thanks for the message. I hope I was able to help the two of you reach a compromise on how to present the information. There is a lot of information about Tom Eyen on the internet, and I have only done a quick job of adding in a few references and fleshing it out a little. I agree that more could be made of the "Dirtiest Show" as well as Mary Hartman and some of Eyen's other work, and a real description (rather than just a list) of his neo-expressionist works and style would be interesting. One could certainly improve this article if one went to a good library and really sat down with all the library references, web references and the scripts of Eyen's most important plays. There is a professor named Stone, who I cited, who apparently has done a lot of research on Eyen and his early work, and he has written several pieces on Eyen's work that I imagine he would share, and I am sure he could help in building a first-rate article. In any case, best regards, and good luck. I hope that you will continue to contribute to Wikipedia. -- Ssilvers 04:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi-Ho Ssilvers to the rescue! Thank you for your help and encouragement - I'm very pleased with the article. I have met Professor Stone, but have not yet read his work. I will try to do what I can. Thanks again to you and SFTVLGUY2. --Eric Eyen 04:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Eric. I like your latest revisions, but I think there is a minor mistake in the intro that was introduced by someone yesterday, regarding the pluralization of some of the award(s). Would you please fix it, if I am right? Best regards, -- Ssilvers 00:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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Unspecified source for Image:Tom_Eyen_1986.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Tom_Eyen_1986.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, then you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, then their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, please add a proper copyright licensing tag if the file doesn't have one already. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Wikipedia:Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 22:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Jusjih (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I keep the page on my watchlist. Best regards! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)