User talk:Eequor/Archives/Disenchantment

please, please don't leave!!!!!!!

Re your comment on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals), I really don't want you to leave. I surely can't force you to stay, but I can let you know that you would be tremendously missed. Is it a dictatorship? Well, yes. Jimbo started Wikipedia and is the chairman of the Wikimedia Foundation (which raises the funds to pay for the servers). Basically, this is his house. He can shut the doors and kick everybody out pretty much whenever he likes, so he really does have ultimate authority. I think he's generally a pretty good guy, but for some reason he's gone bonkers about unsourced images (it could be a legal threat that might result in wikipedia being shut down - as far as I can tell, he's simply not saying). Rather than leave, I've been trying to figure out ways to the minimize the damage (the watchlist notice was my idea, and I think I might have helped slow down Zscout370, "the terminator"). Please stay and try to help. What else can we do? -- Rick Block (talk) 03:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Regarding your leaving, please don't. Think about it this way: For better or for worse, Wikipedia is becoming one of the premier reference sites on the Internet. As such, it is a resource of tremendous importance and influence. This may make you very sad if you disagree with certain aspects of Wikipedia, or with certain ways in which Wikipedia has developed, but Wikipedia's prime position is nevertheless a fact. Leaving accomplishes absolutely nothing, because far too many people are involved, and it will not motivate those you disagree with to change their ways; instead, all these people will do, actually, is cheer. Staying, however, allows you to leave your mark on this project and perhaps add your own little push on the project toward the direction you believe this project should go. You can't accomplish anything by leaving, but you just might be able to do something by not leaving.

Now, this is not to say that I necessarily agree with your position in all things, and indeed, I probably disagree with your position on several things; however, I do think the mark that you leave on the project is overall quite positive, and I really do hope you stay.

Now, I mentioned above specific issues that you can influence. As an example, may I suggest you take a look at the discussion regarding capitalization of list items on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style?

—Lowellian (reply) 05:00, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Please don't leave us! We're finally getting WP:Chem really going! I remember when I first started on Wikipedia, you helped me get started. I understand your frustrations with the lost images- I presume tha lawyers caused a panic, and it caused a huge mess. But we're bringing knowledge to the world here, and we need your help! Walkerma 03:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Your departure

Greetings! I was hoping to talk to you about why you'd left and what I think of the situation, but the public venue of a talk page is a bit too public, and you don't have an email address set. So if you should happen for some reason to stumble upon this and not be averse to a conversation, do let me know. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 12:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi. Since the mass image deletion, I've been weighing my indignation at Jimbo's disrespect for the community against karma, the need for a project like Wikipedia, the possible actual value of this project, and the possibility that W'pedia's growth has outstripped the capacity of the community to produce a useful resource. Many items on WikiWatch, for example, are disturbing. I'm also disappointed by the large number of articles I find that clearly will not be understood by the majority of readers. I'm still not sure whether I see importance in editing.

I'd rather not see more private discussion about Wikipedia matters. What are your thoughts? ‣ᓛᖁᑐ 02:09, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

My own take on the situation is that this is one of the few situations where it is a Foundation rather than a community issue. Wikimedia gets quite a few requests to take down copyrighted images. Some of them rather nasty, some of them threatening to sue. (Disclosure: I answer some of them.) The whole project is put at risk by us having images we cannot claim with certainty are being used in accordance with the law. It was a mistake for us not to have this as a criterion for speedy deletion from the beginning; I don't believe this to be one that can be disputed by the community. It's not a social issue, it's a legal one, and I see Jimbo here acting in the capacity of a Board member tired of responding to angry takedown notices rather than GodKing of a social project. This was a place where the community decision-making process failed and showed no signs of righting itself.

The callous manner in which some of these deletions were carried out is another matter; no need to antagonize people. Some toes were stepped on needlessly and some valuable contributors were driven away, and that was clearly a mistake. Some of the images were deleted out of hand that should have been kept—an image uploaded by someone who has not been on the project in months and shows no sign of coming back is unlikely ever to be tagged properly; a shame to lose one that may be acceptable, but it's better to lose it and know we are clear. But active good-faith contributors should be given a bit more leeway and time (though not exempted entirely).

On the whole I think Jimbo has been trying to give up as much of his influence over the project as he can, particularly considering how many requests for intervention he gets and how few of them he does not leave to the community to solve. Fewer instances yet are meant to be unilateral declarations rather than suggestions; I know in many cases he will refrain from saying something where he does have an opinion because people give his word too much weight.

As for Wikipedia: it has its flaws and I don't like a lot of the shift in culture that it's taking. But I am convinced of the need for a project of this type, and that such a project *will* exist, and that considering the issues with scaling, growth, and openness this project for all its flaws does astonishingly well. I am also convinced that the departure of good users over such issues as this will not solve the problem. If there was not honest belief that the merits of an action justified its costs it wouldn't get enough support to stand; that it stands says that enough good people support it that a few who leave and do not stay to point out its flaws and suggest improvement will only be a sad loss and not a positive force. I don't believe yet we've grown too big to be useful, though we're long past the point where even the most active contributors recognize each other's names.

You're a greater force for change here than in your absence. I frequently disagree with your opinions. But their perspective is needed. Your absence removes one more dissenting voice and with such a large community one user's absence, even one unusual user's, is not conspicuous. As for technical articles I agree with you. (Incidentally, I keep a casual eye on the Mathematics project but contribute little to it as there are enough people better than I working on it that I think my editing time is better spent elsewhere.) Though I don't see how this is incentive to leave the project rather than to stay and improve it. I do think this project is important, as a centralized source of free content factual information (yes, yes, not all of it is factual at any given moment); it fills a need and also furthers social goals I believe in.

Oh, and happy belated birthday to you as well; actually, mine is on the same date. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:53, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you; this reply helps a lot. Most irksome about the incident was Jimbo changing policy without indicating why, with other users backing the change simply because it had come from Jimbo. I considered contacting him about it, but the dictatorial approach led me to feel there would be little point.

I'm still not happy with the level of authority given to Jimbo, and I'm worried that Wikipedia may be reaching a point where uncertain reliability and academic elitism will only get worse. But... I guess I'm back, now. ‣ᓛᖁᑐ 15:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad it helped... I really hated to see you leave over this. Welcome back and take care. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 17:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

...and return

Welcome back, all the same! Hope you're feeling better soon. Physchim62 14:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you! ‣ᓛᖁᑐ 14:32, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Your coming-back (and late birthday) present is to have all the templates for the R- and S-phrases completed, as we discussed a couple of months ago! See them in all their glory on List of R-phrases and List of S-phrases.

Very nice! ^_^

‣ᓛᖁᑐ 21:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed that you're here on Wikipedia again. Let me add my greetings to others: A hearty welcome back! (And please don't leave again.) —Lowellian (reply) 15:23, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I've noticed you're back as well, and I'm glad. Your presence makes this a better place. -- Rick Block (talk) 16:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your support. ^_^

‣ᓛᖁᑐ 17:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)