User talk:DonAByrd

Welcome!

Hello, DonAByrd, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{Help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! Hyacinth (talk) 16:15, 16 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some things for your CMN Extremes page

(It is your page, right? I was directed here by User:Basemetal, and your contributions seem to confirm this.) I found some half-note appoggiaturas: [1] (scores:Zephyr, with thy downy wing (Callcott, John Wall)), and the Quoniam from Mozart's Great Mass in C minor (K.427; bar 85, first violins and first soprano).

The G-sharp major article also states that there is an G-sharp major key signature in John Foulds' A World Requiem. If accurate, this would be an 8-sharp key signature, also a record. Unfortunately I haven't seen the score, and there is a "citation needed" tag on the statement. Talk:D-flat minor also records one editor's encounter with a D-flat minor key signature (8 flats); unfortunately they didn't remember what the piece was.

Finally, thanks to this score, you can now remove the asterisk before the first entry in "3. Tempo and metronome marks" (Mussorgsky Pictures). Double sharp (talk) 14:40, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some responses re my CMN Extremes page

Yes, that's my page. Thanks very much for your comments. In response:

1. Note that the "half-note appoggiaturas" are in a section headed "For grace notes"; that is, I'm listing only appoggiaturas actually notated as grace notes. There must be many, many instances of half-note appoggiaturas written as normal notes, so they're not very interesting. Can you suggest clearer wording?

2. Thanks especially for the Foulds reference! Even without actually seeing it in print, it's great to have an example of a key signature of more than 7 sharps/flats in real music. (I had no idea there was a "G-sharp major" article. I see there's a "F-flat major" article, too; will have to add its example(s) too.)

3. Thanks for this, too.

I've already made the changes for #2 and #3 in draft form; should be able to put them on the Web very soon. I'll add "Double-sharp" to the list of contributors, though I'd be very happy to include your real name in addition or instead. What do you prefer?

I'm OK with just the pseudonym (though I'd prefer it without the hyphen). The half-note appoggiaturas are written as grace notes in both examples, so they should qualify. About the F♭ major example on the F-flat major page – I'm not sure if that Richard Strauss score really uses an eight-flat key signature, mainly because if it did I'd expect it to have been noted explicitly. Double sharp (talk) 10:37, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and one more I forgot about: the earliest use of septuple meter notated as such I've seen is in Alkan's Op.32 No.8 impromptu, from 1849! (It's in 7/4.) It's the last piece in this pdf. Double sharp (talk) 10:43, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're right about the half-note appoggiaturas; my mistake. Thanks for them, and also the 1849(!) example of explicit septuple meter. These will all be on the Extremes page soon.

Here's a runner-up for "Shortest notated duration" for normal notes: there are 256th notes in some editions (e.g. the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe) of Mozart's 12 Variations on "Je suis Lindor", KV 354 (the last variation). The Alte Mozart-Ausgabe doubles the note values, so the shortest durations are 128ths. Also, in the editions of the Gulliver Suite I checked, there are no 256ths (there sure are a lot of 128ths though).

(Addendum: there are no 256ths in the editions I checked, but there are in the manuscript. However they obviously have one beam too many and should be 128ths. An interesting reverse case is in the second movement of Beethoven's third piano concerto, which has 128ths that ought to be 256ths in b.63.)

Very good. The Mozart ex will also be on the Extremes page soon.

Double sharp (talk) 01:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not too sure whether this is relevant to your page, but amusingly Liszt's 6th Hungarian Rhapsody switches from a five-flat key signature to a seven-sharp one early on and then back again immediately.

Finally, here's some cool notation I found:

This is from Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso, Op. 14. What bar does the upbeat to the Presto section belong to? In the same vein, how long is the third bar of this extract?

Good questions, without good answers (to my knowledge) :-) . DonAByrd (talk) 20:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: Oops. I just noticed that in the update to my CMN Extremes page, which I put up a couple of weeks ago, I forgot your exx of half-note appogiaturas. Sorry! Will fix in my next update. Please let me know of any problems with how I reference your contributions -- or with anything else.

Double sharp (talk) 13:38, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

on contacting me (Double sharp) via talk page

The way to do it is either (1) write {{ping|Double sharp}} in front of your reply on your talk page, or (2) write {{talkback|DonAByrd}} on the bottom of my talk page. Hope that helps! Soon I'll reword the notice I have on my talk page to clarify it. Double sharp (talk) 07:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

{{ping|Double sharp}}

Thanks. Yes, that helps! Or rather, it helps if you see this promptly :-) .

more records and runner-ups

Hello. Another runner-up for earliest nested tuplets (earliest usages, 2b) is Alkan: Etude No. 9 ("Concerto, Deuxième Partie") from Douze études dans tous les tons mineures, Op. 39 (1857). The passages in question are b.115-133, 172-175, and 186-191: they are sixteenth-note triplets within eighth-note triplets.

@Double sharp: Hi, Double sharp. Thanks!

P.S. On your CMN extremes page, I can't find mention of the half-note grace-note appoggiaturas I posted about earlier on your talk page. Did you forget to add them? Double sharp (talk) 04:39, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. No, I didn't forget, but I can't easily edit my website from off-campus, and every time I've been on campus recently… Well, there's no point in going into messy details. Coming soon.

Oh, and here's some record-smashers for "Shortest performed duration: normally-played notes" (duration and rhythm, 8a): Alkan, Etude No. 7 ("Symphonie, Finale") from Douze études dans tous les tons mineures, Op. 39 (1857). The metronome marking is

= 96, so the semiquavers in b.357-382 last 39 milliseconds each! (Not glissandi, and in fact impossible to play as glissandi.) In this live recording by Marc-André Hamelin he even accelerates to

= 104 here, so that each note lasts an incredible 36 ms! That smashes the old record of 80 ms to bits!

It sure does! Unbelievable.

More runners-up from the country of Velocistan are listed below. All are by Alkan.

Etude No. 1 ("Comme le vent") from the same collection: shortest notes are hemidemisemiquavers (e.g. in b.61-84): as the tempo marked is

= 160, that means that each of them should take 47 ms! But I have never heard a recording that takes it that fast: Jack Gibbons gets to

= 152 in this section sometimes, which means each takes 52 ms. (Of course, the grace notes in this section might be even faster!) Etude No. 8 ("Concerto, Première Partie") gets to this speed as well several times (demisemiquavers at

= 160), but here Hamelin in his first recording as well as Gibbons' live performance on YouTube actually get to this speed. Etude No. 3 ("Scherzo diabolico") writes alternating-hands octaves(!) in quavers at

. = 132 (each note thus taking 76 ms); but I have not heard any recording getting even close to this speed (Gibbons is close to

. = 100, which would be 100 ms per note). Le chemin de fer (Op. 27, 1844) reaches 67 ms per note in this recording (semiquavers at

= 112). "Mouvement semblable et perpétuel" (Op. 76 No. 3, 1838) is semiquavers at

= 160 (but many go faster: Ronald Smith does it at 176, making each note 85 ms. I think Hamelin is even faster but annoyingly can't find his recording.) The glissando at the end might qualify, but Smith does so much rubato here I can't easily check with a metronome!

Une fusée (Op. 55, 1859) gets to 78 ms (semiquavers at

= 96). The Sonatine Op. 61 (III, Scherzo-Minuetto, 1861) asks for semiquavers at

. = 84, which would be 60 ms each. (But Ronald Smith doesn't play it that fast.)

Some of these tempo markings have been criticized in articles such as this one (if you follow the links on that page you will see others): but after having tried to play the Op.39 etudes at the marked tempi, these fears seem to be unfounded: the tempo markings make musical sense, while of course being fantastically difficult. Particularly, playing Le chemin de fer at

= 112 makes the "happy passengers" melody feel way to draggy IMHO, and while

= 112 may be Alkan's fantasy (trains couldn't move that fast yet), it does indeed feel like a fast scary train ride when played at that speed! Raymond Lewenthal's statement on preparing Alkan pieces probably should be kept in mind: "read his markings scrupulously, starting with the metronome indications which at first will usually seem too fast. They are not. [Lewenthal's underlining] It is you who is too slow." Double sharp (talk) 05:38, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whew! I see you've spent a lot of time in Velocistan. (I also see you're a pianist, which I'd been suspecting; nice to know :-) .) This is way more than I want to add to my page, but I'll add some of it to the queue of changes to be made. Thanks again!

DonAByrd (talk) 19:19, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp:

By now you've probably given up waiting for me to update the Extremes page. I'm sorry, but I was unable to connect to the server to do it for awhile; a tech support person finally gave me a workaround yesterday, and I think I have your main contributions there now -- about four of 'em. DonAByrd (talk) 15:33, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Double sharp (talk) 15:45, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank _you_ for your contributions :-) . DonAByrd (talk) 15:52, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Another record for your page

(Other, 1. Vertical extremes, i/iii. Most simultaneous notated voices for one instrument and performer): The fugato in Alkan's Quasi-Faust (2nd movement of the Grande Sonate, Op. 33, composed 1847) goes up to at least 8 voices (4 notated in each hand due to stemming). There's also an octave-doubling of the fugue subject in the 8-voice passage, and one of the stems has two voices proceeding in the same rhythm, so you could argue that it should be 9 or even 10 voices; but this would be the record no matter what the count is exactly. (See pp.28–31 – it really must be seen to be believed!) Double sharp (talk) 14:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: Wow. Yes, I really did have to see it to believe it. I'll add it. Thanks! DonAByrd (talk) 02:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another new record

Here's a record-shatterer for "earliest nested tuplets" (under Earliest Usages, 2b): Schubert, Adagio in G major, D. 178 (1st version, bar 65), composed 8 April 1815! They are sixteenth-note triplets inside eighth-note triplets. Here's a score, where you can see it on the fifth system of p.2.

Another nice runner-up: Chopin, Allegro de concert, Op. 46 (sixteenth-note triplets inside eighth-note triplets). The work was began in 1832 and finished by 1841. Double sharp (talk) 14:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The first act of Schubert's Lazarus, D. 689 (composed February 1820), would incidentally be a runner-up for "longest movement in measures" (Other, 2c.i), being 1004 bars long (if I counted correctly). The whole act is continuous from start to finish, with no final double-bars in between, so I think it definitely counts as a single complete movement. (You can see the score here: the first act ends at page 72, and that's where the first final double-bar is! The fragment of the second act breaks off after 575 bars.)

(Lazarus dies at b.970 of the first act, if you're curious! It's really a pity he didn't complete the rest: you'll know what I mean if you give the first act and perhaps the fragment of the second a listen. Alfred Einstein had the idea to save the first act for audiences by simply retitling it The Death of Lazarus. Clever. ^_^) Double sharp (talk) 08:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: Thanks for this stuff. Incidentally, I'm even less often on campus these days than I used to be, but I finally realized why I couldn't edit my website from home, and I just made several updates to the CMN Extremes page, including some of your previous contributions. DonAByrd (talk) 23:13, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! It's certainly fun finding these. Double sharp (talk) 15:33, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Longest continuous trill

(Duration and Rhythm, 2e). Here's a new record! Mozart Piano Quartet in G minor, K 478, third movement, bars 311 to 319) has a trill on D5 in the piano part that lasts 9 bars of 2/2. Double sharp (talk) 23:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Earliest tuplets across a barline

This isn't yet a category, but my nomination is: Alkan, Morte (Op. 15 No. 3, from Trois morceaux dans le genre pathétique, composed 1837) is in 2/4 (well, it starts in common time, but the section of interest is in 2/4), and b.223-4 have 5:4 quarter notes spanning both bars and b.303-4 have 9:8 eighth notes (again spanning both bars). (Caveat re the bar numbers: this is my edition, and I have several editorial barlines before this, so other scores may not agree on these bar numberings. Subtracting 23 from my bar numbers should account for this.)

@Double sharp: Whew. Thanks for all of your recent contributions. I updated the webpage a few days ago with your stuff up to this point. I'm not going to be able to get to any more for quite awhile, for a reason I'd like to tell you -- but not in such a public forum! Clearly you like communicating via Wikipedia user talk pages, but would you be willing to make an exception and email me at donbyrd@indiana.edu ? I promise not to reveal your true identity :-) . DonAByrd (talk) 08:47, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mind if it's from my WP-only email? :-) (Which reminds me that I made it and forgot to set it up! So I have now.) Though it's being wonky now – I'm not at home, so the wonders of Gmail are asking me to put in my phone number for confirmation, and I don't think I gave one in the first place. So you might have to wait a week or two for an email. ;-) Double sharp (talk) 16:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp:By "WP-only email", I guess you mean a Gmail address you use only for WP-related stuff -- is that right? If so, no problem :-) . Or is it one of Wikipedia's features I've never heard of, i.e., email _within_ Wikipedia? If it's that, I'd prefer a regular email address, but I won't argue. DonAByrd (talk) 08:30, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, it's a Gmail I use only for WP-related stuff. :-)

@Double sharp:WHAT is a "WP-only email"? If you sent something to donbyrd@indiana.edu, I never saw it. ?? Of course _I_ wouldn't mind if you want to disclose that address here, but I gather you prefer not to.

It's a Gmail. I'm not home at the moment and never told it what my phone number was, so it's not letting me through (saying I'm logging in from an unusual location...) I don't think I'll be able to send it till the first few days of August when I return. Sorry about the delay! Double sharp (talk) 07:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: :-) No problem.

All right, I'm back and it's working now! I just sent you an email. Double sharp (talk) 12:20, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you don't mind if I keep posting new records I find here, though? Recently I've been studying Alkan in some detail and have found an incredible number of records in his music... Double sharp (talk) 15:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp:I don't mind. I expect to get to them some day, maybe not too far off. 162.1.2.30 (talk) 02:05, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A close runner-up is Alkan, Etude Op. 76 No. 3 "Hands Reunited" (1839), b.417–8: it's in 2/4 and these two bars have 31:16 sixteenth notes; however it's also marked glissando, which may disqualify it. Double sharp (talk) 14:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Another runner-up: Brahms, Piano Sonata in F minor, Op. 5, fifth movement, composed 1853 (4:3 quarter notes across the barline). See p. 29 of this pdf. Double sharp (talk) 21:46, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(Again on tuplets, but a different record) Duration and Rhythm, 4ai (Tuplet Extremes: Most complex in a single level, Largest numerator): a new record would be 62 in Alkan, Le vent Op. 15 No. 2, again from the Trois morceaux dans le genre pathétique (1837), b.87. However, this is not marked in the original edition, which incidentally messes up the rest that ends the LH part, engraving a dotted sixteenth instead of an eighth. This could mean one of three things: (1) it's a mistake; (2) it's a 61:62 polyrhythm (not likely IMHO); (3) the last four notes in the RH from a 4:3 tuplet within the large tuplet, so that the tuplet number is actually 61 and not 62. But either way it is still a record, marked or not. The denominator would be 32, which also makes it a tie for largest denominator! Double sharp (talk) 14:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Is there no end to the records that can be obtained from this example? 62 is also a record for Other, 2ai, 4 (Most notes/chords in one beamset on one system), narrowly beating 59 in Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 and Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto (both the 59's are on your page). Double sharp (talk) 14:17, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Slur maximums: new record

(Duration and Rhythm, 7a: Longest slur in number of systems). Alkan, Saltarelle op. 23 (1844), has a slur that lasts 6 systems (starting at the top of p.6, at the beginning of the A-major section). Double sharp (talk) 15:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

septuple meter (explicitly notated)

Oh, and in between the current two examples on your page (Alkan 1849 and the runner-up Bartók 1909) there are also: Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition (1874), 4th and 5th Promenades (the meter keeps changing, but some of the bars are in 7/4); Mussorgsky: With Nanny, the first song from the song cycle The Nursery (1868; again, the meter keeps changing, but some bars are in 7/4); Liszt: Dante Symphony (completed 1857) with a passage in 7/4; and according to septuple meter Berlioz's L'enfance du Christ (1854) contains an even earlier example. Alkan (1849) still appears to be the first, though.

An interesting footnote to the history of septuple meter is the finale of Haydn, Piano Sonata Hob:XVI/12, from 1767(!!), which, while notated in 3/8, is phrased almost exclusively in seven-bar units. (The exceptions are one nine-bar phrase and one eleven-bar phrase in the middle, which come from sequential repetition in an originally seven-bar phrase). Combined with the Allegretto speed, and that 3/8 in this time period usually implies one beat to the bar, the aural impression is 21/8 meter, which would be incredible if only it was actually notated that way. :-( Double sharp (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

earliest usages, duration and rhythm

2g (earliest chord tied to a rest or to nothing at all). A close runner-up: Alkan, Introduction au cinquième Caprice pour piano (the intro to Op. 13 No. 2, composed 1843). Notice the high E♮ in b.21! Double sharp (talk) 00:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

earliest diatonic cluster with more than 4 notes

(Earliest Usages: 1c) A new record is Alkan, Une fusée, Op. 55 (1859), eleven bars before the end. The key is D minor, and the cluster is G1 A1 B♭1 C♯2 D2 E2 F2 G2 in the left hand. (The fingering is marked as 5 5 4 3 2 2 1 1.) Double sharp (talk) 14:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting runner-up: Alkan, Les diablotins, No. 45 from the Esquisses Op. 63 (1861), which contains many 5-note clusters (the key is G-sharp minor). The clusters are all diatonic, but not all are diatonic to the key of G♯ minor (e.g. C

D♯ E♯ F

G♯ near the beginning, diatonic to D♯ major). There's also a 10-note cluster in the middle split between the hands (F

G♯ A♯ B C♯ D♯ E♯ F

G♯ A♯, without any change of register). Double sharp (talk) 15:33, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

earliest usage of ffff

(Earliest usages, 3k) Alkan, L'Opéra (No. 12 from Les Mois, Op. 74, composed 1838) ends in ffff. (It's the last piece in the set.) Double sharp (talk) 16:02, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(Runner-up): Alkan, Etude Op. 76 No. 1 (1839), ending. Double sharp (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

most ledger lines above staff

(Pitch, 1a) Runner-up: 8 in Alkan, Grande sonate Op. 33 (1848), 1st movement "20 ans", for A♯7, b.507 (which might not even have been on the piano of his time!). In fact the Grande sonate demands an 8-octave piano range from A♯0 (used in the 4th movement "50 ans, Prométhée enchaîné") to A♯7 (used in the 1st movement). Also 8 for Alkan, Etude Op. 35 No. 7 "L'incendie au village voisin" (1848), b.133 for A♭7, but that is lower (despite being on the same staff position).

Above a bass staff (and hence being more unnecessary, as a change to treble staff would work just as well even if one wishes to eschew 8va): 6 for F♯5 in the Alkan Grande sonate, 1st movement, b.446.

An interesting footnote (not sure where to play this): Schubert, Sonata D 625 (Scherzo), composed 1818, contains a G♯7 (notated with 8va). This would almost certainly have held the record for the highest written note for piano for quite a while, as it was not a standard inclusion on the piano till the mid-19th-century! Double sharp (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Re the Grande sonate Op. 33 of Alkan: neither the A♯0 nor the A♯7 use ledger lines, so that it is simultaneously a runner-up for ledger lines both above and below the staff. Double sharp (talk) 13:41, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Shortest movement in measures

(Other, 2di) A rather sad runner-up: Alkan, Esquisse Op. 63 No. 22 (1861), Innocenzia is 11 bars of 6/8: unfortunately, there's a repeat sign after the tenth bar, which instantly halves the record. Slightly more distant runner-ups from this collection (cutting them off once they cross 21 bars) are No. 4 (Les cloches) at 17²/₃ bars of 6/8; No. 12 (Barcarollette) at 15 bars of 18/8 (clever!); No. 21 (Morituri te salutant) at 17¹/₄ bars of 4/4; No. 26 (Petit air: genre ancien) at 20¹/₃ bars of 3/4; No. 46 (Le premier billet doux) at 20¹/₄ bars of 2/2; No. 48 (En Songe) at 19¹/₃ bars of 9/16. None of these have repeat signs (apart from Innocenzia, as first mentioned). Double sharp (talk) 22:12, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Though Innocenzia is a shaky contender for shortest in measures, it's more solid as a runner-up for 2dii (in pages): it takes up ²/₅ of the page it's on. Double sharp (talk) 22:29, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alkan, Prelude Op. 31 No. 1 (the set was composed in 1844, but published in 1847) is 10 bars of 4/4 (unfortunately each bar is repeated...). Double sharp (talk) 22:26, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

...and as an interesting aside

Regarding Other, 3b (lowest number in a metronome marking): my metronome marking annotation for the last movement of Alkan's Grande Sonate Op. 33 (1848) is = 12. Now that would be a record, if I could get that suggestion published one day! (Since metronomes don't go that low, I do it by setting it to 48 and treating it as counting sixteenths.) ;-) That's even slower than Ronald Smith, who plays it at = 19. (Since the movement is in 2/4, the use of the quarter note here seems logical.) Double sharp (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For a more legitimate runner-up (i.e. actually published): David Montgomery's Franz Schubert's Music in Performance cites on p.257 a marking of = 25 for Memnon, D 541. (It also gives . = 26.7 for the Zum Agnus Dei, Das Gebet des Herrn, and the Zum Evangelium und Credo of the Deutsche Messe D 872.) However, none of them are expressed this way in the original score, and are actually converted by Montgomery to fit the actual beat value. (He's making a point about how tempo ranges correspond to the tempo marking, which necessitates that all the markings be converted to fit the beat.) For example, Schubert marked Memnon as = 50 in 2/2. Double sharp (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

the troublesome time signature in Schubert's G-flat impromptu D 899 No 3

Incidentally, the Montgomery book I quoted above suggests on p.228 that be interpreted here as 2/1, instead of the 4/2 you usually hear: so that the Andante applies to the whole note instead of the half! This gives a very fast internal speed with the triplet-eighth accompaniment, with a flowing melody above in a real Andante in wholes, halves, and quarters. Double sharp (talk) 22:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

silly notation

Alkan: Capriccio alla soldatesca, Op. 50 (1859), very often makes use of a very strange and completely unnecessary piece of notation: a single dotted quarter note with a triplet "3" above it, taking up exactly as long as a regular quarter note! (See for example pp.5, 6, 14, and 16.) Double sharp (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

earliest explicit use of una corda for piano

(Other, 4c) Somewhat distant runners-up to the Beethoven (1805-6); Schubert, Suleika I, D 720, beginning of the piano part (1821) and the Piano Sonata in A minor, D 845, trio of third movement (1825): both are marked Mit Verschiebung, which per Montgomery means nothing more and nothing less than una corda. Double sharp (talk) 22:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

on over-7-sharp key signatures

Annoyingly I can't find the score of this anywhere, but the title sounds extremely promising: "Cello Concerto in D-sharp major"(!), listed in the "Concertos" section of List of compositions by Anton Reicha. (Although one wonders what the orchestra would have thought of that key, which would require a 9-sharp key signature.) Double sharp (talk) 12:38, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: I'm sorry, but I'd say the title sounds way too good (for our purposes, of course :-) ) to be true! I think the odds are very high that this is either a mistake and it's actually in F-sharp major or some such, or it's a joke. "View history" might show who added this item to the Reicha composition list; if so, perhaps you'd care to contact them? DonAByrd (talk) 12:57, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, ordinarily I wouldn't trust it, but after looking over Reicha's works (including sets of 57 variations, piano music written on six staves, attempts at using modality, polytonality and quarter tones in the Classical era) it does sound like the sort of thing he would think of trying. ;-) I found the user who added it (User:Jashiin) and asked them on their talk page: they're still active. Double sharp (talk) 13:12, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Though another possibility is that it was actually in E♭ and announced as D♯, like Beethoven's Eroica Symphony. I confess I never did understand why it was announced that way. This hypothesis seems strengthened as IMSLP's list of Joseph Reicha's works (to whom this D♯ concerto has apparently also been attributed) lists an E♭ cello concerto. Double sharp (talk) 13:17, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, they say they copied it from the New Grove, but don't have access any longer to check [presumably if it was a typo?]. I think we should probably leave this as a talk-page candidate for now and not include it until we locate the original source for this. Double sharp (talk) 14:47, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

more records

Hello! I hope you've been fine. Sorry for not posting here in a long time: I haven't found that many new records recently.

That has changed today. ^_^

First, here's another half-note appoggiatura (printed as a small note, and applied to a whole note): J.C.Bach, Symphony in D major, op. 18 no. 4, 1st movement (published 1781), b.54 and 58 (first violin part). I do not have the whole score, but the excerpt in question appears on pp.263–6 of Charles Rosen's Sonata Forms. BTW, the date of the Mozart example (KV 427) that was among the first things I told you is 1782–3. (That would go under Rhythm and Single-Note Duration, 2g).

Second, here's another runner-up to Rhythm and Single-Note Duration, 2e (longest continuous trill): Mozart, Piano Quartet in E-flat major, KV 493 (3rd movement, b.343–351; composed 1786). The trill is 8⁠1/2⁠ bars of 2/2.

Third, here's a record for Rhythm and Single-Note Duration, 4c ("largest compression ratio"): Haydn, Variations in F minor (composed 1793), has 20:4 (= 5:1) eighth-notes in b.186 and b.188. These are not small notes in the Henle Urtext edition (though they are in some older editions, like the one edited by Paderewski). Runner-up: Bars 187 and 189 of the same piece have 19:4 eighth-notes. Double sharp (talk) 14:06, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

8-flat key signature

So, here is what seems to be an actual example: Victor Ewald's Brass Quintet No.4 in A♭ major, Op.8. The third movement is written in F♭ major, according to the link, which explicitly specifies the key signature of 6 flats and 1 double flat. Double sharp (talk) 02:41, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I found this Russian website with an interesting, almost engraved-looking picture of 8-, 9-, and 10-sharp or flat key signatures! I wonder if these were taken from somewhere, or just were edited: it does look strikingly like the old Breitkopf & Härtel font. Double sharp (talk) 02:47, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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