User talk:Dewrano

Translation of YPG motto

Based on your comment at my talk page, the translated motto at People's Protection Units (“YPG walks, and the earth and sky tremble”) may be regarded as a work in progress.

1. As you point out, the first of my two translations is inaccurate. I should not have used the term “though”. (Nor should I have used the term “march”.)

2. As you point out, my allusion to “light infantry” isn’t pertinent. I meant only to suggest that the denotation (the literal meaning) of your original Kurdish-to-English translation (“The earth and sky trembles, as YPG marches on”) could be somewhat confusing to a native English speaker.

In most cases, a YPG foot soldier does not want the earth or sky to tremble as his unit approaches an enemy position! Any such trembling would likely alert enemy soldiers.

For an illustration, see the movie “Saving Private Ryan”. The earth trembles (vibrates) as the German tank approaches, alerting the American troops.

But the earth doesn’t “tremble” or vibrate as a YPG light-infantry unit walks or marches; nor does the sky. (In contrast, the earth does vibrate as a Daesh mechanized-infantry unit marches!)

3. In English, the clause “The earth and sky trembles” doesn’t sound natural.

(And suppose a native English speaker were to say, “Look! The sky is trembling.” A native English listener could perhaps understand him to mean: “Look toward the horizon! The images seem to be vibrating.” But what phenomenon would be causing the images to vibrate? Answer: Heat waves rising from the desert. That’s all.)

4. In English, a clause like “Earth and Heaven tremble” (or “The earth and heavens quake”) does sound natural. The average listener interprets it as a metaphor. Literally, it would mean that both the Earth (the earthly world) and the angels (the heavenly world) are trembling in fear. Metaphorically, it means that both the local residents (including the enemy’s forces) and the established powers are unnerved by the YPG’s capability to conquer or disestablish them.

To the typical English-Wikipedia reader, such a motto makes little sense — at least, not in its current (2015) context. The typical reader believes that most of Daesh’s fighters welcome martyrdom and feel excitement — not fear — when they hear YPG’s fighters coming toward them. In addition, the typical reader believes that most of the established powers would feel fear only if they expected Daesh to win.

5. Conclusion: In the mind of the typical 2015 English-Wikipedia reader, both the denotation and the connotation of the original translation are contrary to fact.

6. Can we concisely translate the original motto (written by a Kurdish author in 2002) into wording that communicates (to a typical English-WP reader in 2015) the author’s original meaning? I don’t know how it could be done. But I think that we can concisely translate the motto into wording that precisely matches the author’s original wording.

7. The word meşîn, meşîyan is literally translated as the word “walk”.

• Kurmancî

• Kürt Kültürü

• Glosbe (“walk a tightrope”)

8. In the sentence, “YPG dimeşe, erd û ezman diheje”, what word (or prefix) could be literally translated as the word “as”?

9. The punctuation — a comma between two independent clauses — can be most literally translated as a comma: “YPG marches, earth and sky tremble”. But that wording sounds unnatural.

10. The comma can also be translated as (1) a semicolon or (2) the word “and”. The second translation sounds most natural.

11. To my (limited) knowledge, the punctuation should not be translated into the word “as”. “As” is a subordinating conjunction (like the word “while”). A comma between two independent clauses acts as a coordinating conjunction (like the word “and”).

12. See Template:Cleanup-translation. Many WP translations do “need attention from someone approaching dual fluency” (like you). Your original translation then needed attention from a native English-language speaker (especially one who reads a lot of mainstream English-language media, like me). Such a reader could better understand its connotations to other such readers.

The revised translation could then be reviewed and edited by a dual-fluency reader. You’re welcome to do so! Please post any new translation at my talk page. Thanks! --Dervorguilla (talk) 13:21, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

PS: Your point that the clause “YPG walks” “makes no sense” is almost correct. In most contexts, such wording would sound like unsophisticated baby talk. But here it connotes something portentous.

Most native English speakers are familiar with horror-movie titles where the first word is a proper name and the second is “walks”. Such titles are supposed to inspire a sense of dread.

“Gargantor walks ... and the earth and sky tremble.” Indeed they would!

Moreover, the author may even have wanted to suggest that the spirits of YPG’s martyrs accompany its soldiers on their expeditions. For these spirits do indeed accompany them ... psychologically! (Source: relevant stories on the YPG News site.)

In the English-language literature, spirits are commonly said to “walk the earth”; rarely are they said to “march”, however... --Dervorguilla (talk) 15:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC) 19:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

1. I could use a quick grammar lesson. In dimeşe, … diheje, what does the prefix di- mean?

2. Which sounds better: “YPG …” or “The YPG …”?

3. In many cases, the verb “go” can be inserted into a sentence without altering the sentence’s literal meaning. Here, meşîn could be translated as “walk” or “go walking”. Each of these passages is a word-for-word translation of the original.

A. “[The] YPG walks, and the earth and sky tremble.”

B. “[The] YPG goes walking, and the earth and sky tremble.”

Version A sounds more formal. A politician at a mass rally might shout it out: “The YPG walks [pause] and the Earth and Sky tremble!!!”

Version B sounds more natural. YPJ troops might even sing it to each other... --Dervorguilla (talk) 16:40, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Slightly better as song lyrics:

C. “YPG goes walking, and the earth and heavens tremble.”

--Dervorguilla (talk) 19:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

If meşîn can be translated as either “walk” or “march”, then we do indeed want to say “march”. Walking is the more general action and is done by both civilians and soldiers; marching is the more specific action and is done mostly by soldiers. So, the odds are good that the author meant “march” rather than “walk”.

The author uses the Kurdish present tense. But in English, the simple present tense (“YPG marches”) is correctly used only for: (1) an action occurring at the particular time when the author is speaking or writing about it; (2) an action that occurs regularly; or (3) a general truth. The present progressive tense (“YPG is marching”) is used for (4) an action in progress.

Clearly, the author doesn’t mean that (1) YPG marched and the earth trembled at the time he wrote the motto. Nor that (2) YPG marches regularly, and the earth trembles regularly (whether or not YPG is marching). Nor that (3) it’s a general truth that the YPG marches and a general truth that the earth trembles.

Conclusion: “YPG marches, and the earth and sky tremble” isn’t a wholly accurate translation.

Compare with “YPG is marching, and the earth and sky tremble.” Here the meaning is unmistakable. The author is saying: it’s a general truth that the earth and sky tremble while a YPG march is in progress. [Trans. A]

This wording means the same, but for some reason it sounds more natural: “YPG goes marching, and the earth and sky tremble.” [Trans. B]

This wording means almost the same and sounds just as natural, but you can march to it: “YPG goes marching, and the earth and heavens tremble.” [Trans. C]

A works fairly well in English; B and C work very well. --Dervorguilla (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

This wording also sounds natural in English (for some reason) and is a more strictly literal translation than B or C:

“YPG is marching, and the earth and heavens tremble.” [Trans. D]

--Dervorguilla (talk) 06:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Glosbe does translate ezman as “heaven” (******) or “sky” (*****) and it back-translates “heaven” as ezman.

Some definitions from Merriam-Webster Unabridged:

Heaven. 1. a. … especially, the expanse [of space] that seems to be over the earth like a great … dome — usually used in plural. 2. a. … the place … of the blessed dead.

Earth. 1. a. … soil, ground. 2. the sphere of mortal life comprising the world with its lands and seas as distinguished from spheres of spirit life — compare heaven, hell.

Sky. 1. b. the expanse [of space] appearing as a great vault … over the earth. 2. heaven (def. 2) — often used in plural.

Tremble. 1. to shake involuntarily (as with fear, cold, excitement, fatigue).

These three expressions are good idiomatic English:

“If his wrath is aroused, the earth will tremble [in fear].”

“If his wrath is aroused, the skies will tremble [in fear].”

“If his wrath is aroused, the heavens will tremble [in fear].”

Here the singular “sky” and “heaven” would not be used in good spoken English, only in mediocre written English.

So we have a choice of eight ‘very good’ literal translations:

“YPG is [goes] marching, and the earth and [the] skies tremble.”

“YPG is [goes] marching, and the earth and [the] heavens tremble.”

If you try speaking them aloud, you may find that this one sounds best:

X2. “YPG goes marching, and the earth and heavens tremble.”

Something about the meter (the cadence) just makes it sound like a military motto.

In addition, the present-progressive clause “YPG is marching” would naturally correlate with the present-progressive clause “the earth and skies are trembling.” But we want to use simple present tense in the second clause. (See above.)

To do so, a native English speaker might well begin with “YPG goes marching …”, because it combines both tenses: simple present and present progressive.

The current phrasing (X1) is probably good enough for now. But see whether you can come up with a better-sounding combination! --Dervorguilla (talk) 17:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Solved!!!

“YPG goes marching, and the earth and sky [or heavens] tremble.”

This phrasing (X1/2) helpfully signals the reader that it’s an unauthorized manual translation of the Kurdish-language motto. (There is, as yet, no authorized English-language version.) --Dervorguilla (talk) 19:12, 4 July 2015 (UTC) 19:20, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

New analysis and conclusion

The author must have been speaking about a one-time event. (Most likely, the YPG’s founding.)

The wording and grammar now make perfect sense as written! New translation:

YPG is marching, and the earth and sky [or heavens] tremble.

The Kurdish community would have understood the new motto to signify something like this:

Our people’s defense units have (at last) begun marching (and are expected to continue marching till the enemy capitulates). The earth and heavens (at this particular moment) tremble (in fear, as they witness this particular birth event).

The first clause is present progressive. (The marching is in progress and is expected to continue.) The second clause is simple present. (The earth and heavens aren’t expected to continue trembling, or to regularly tremble; after YPG has been marching for a year or two, they’ll come to understand that it won’t harm them if they don’t harm the Kurdish community!) --Dervorguilla (talk) 01:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Is Yekineyen Parastina singular or plural?

Is the noun Yekîneyên Parastina singular, organizational singular, or plural?
- "the United States is a nation ..."
- "the Girl Scouts is an association ..."
- "the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) is an administrative body ..."
- "Delmonico Brothers is a company ..."
and so forth. --Dervorguilla (talk) 21:25, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Category

Engage in the discussion here Category talk:Geography of Rojava.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

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