User talk:David-waterways

This user is a member of WikiProject UK Waterways

Wikipedia and copyright

Hello David-waterways, and welcome to Wikipedia. All or some of your addition(s) to Canal de Bourbourg have been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. While we appreciate your contributing to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from your sources to avoid copyright or plagiarism issues here.

• You can only copy/translate a small amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double quotation marks (") and cite the source using an inline citation. You can read about this at Wikipedia:Non-free content in the sections on "text". See also Help:Referencing for beginners, for how to cite sources here.
• Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information in your own words and structure, in proper paraphrase. Following the source's words too closely can create copyright problems, so it is not permitted here; see Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. (There is a college-level introduction to paraphrase, with examples, hosted by the Online Writing Lab of Purdue.) Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to verify information and to demonstrate that the content is not original research.
• Our primary policy on using copyrighted content is Wikipedia:Copyrights. You may also want to review Wikipedia:Copy-paste.
• If you own the copyright to the source you want to copy or are a designated agent, you may be able to license that text so that we can publish it here. However, there are steps that must be taken to verify that license before you do. See Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials.
• In very rare cases (that is, for sources that are public domain or compatibly licensed), it may be possible to include greater portions of a source text. However, please seek help at the help desk before adding such content to the article. 99.9% of sources may not be added in this way, so it is necessary to seek confirmation first. If you do confirm that a source is public domain or compatibly licensed, you will still need to provide full attribution; see Wikipedia:Plagiarism for the steps you need to follow.
• Also note that Wikipedia articles may not be copied or translated without attribution. If you want to copy or translate from another Wikipedia project or article, you can, but please follow the steps in Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia.

It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be blocked from editing. If you have any questions about this, you are welcome to leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:34, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I also removed copyright violations from Canal de Roubaix, Sarthe (river), and Canal de Calais. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:45, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

This is a test, as I haven't yet started 'talking'. In response to these alerts, I have sent an e-mail to permissions-en@wikipedia.org.David-waterways (talk) 19:17, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

The potential conflict of interest here is more than compensated by 50 years of voluntary activity in favour of inland waterways, as a member of the Inland Waterways Association (UK), then founding member (1994), vice-president (1998) and now (since October 2016) president of Inland Waterways International. There is no self-promotion here, just pointing to what is available, and all texts are in the neutral style that is required of an encyclopedic source of information.David-waterways (talk) 19:23, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I've also removed some text from River Baïse, as it contained text copied from the same site as the above articles did. If permission is secured for the text's use on Wikipedia, it can always be unhidden by an administrator. Thank you, /wiae /tlk 12:28, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I've also removed some text from Canal de l'Oise à l'Aisne, as it contained text copied from http://www.french-waterways.com/waterways/seine/oise-aisne. If and when the required release under a compatible license is received, the material can be restored. In the meantime, please stop adding material from this site. Further copyright violations could result in you being blocked from editing. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 15:00, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Please could I have an update on the process of getting the release on the material on the waterways where texts have been deleted? I understand the importance of being selective and rewording, even when quoting from my own source, but for planning it would be great to know when the release might be granted. Since your blocks I've been sourcing from the telegraphic texts of Charles Berg as a workaround, linking to his Dictionnaire. But it's not very satisfactory, because it's very telegraphic, and the writing is mine. Bonne soiréeDavid-waterways (talk) 19:57, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: sandbox (July 18)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Gbawden was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to User:David-waterways/sandbox and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.
• You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Gbawden (talk) 11:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello! David-waterways, I noticed your article was declined at Articles for Creation, and that can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Gbawden (talk) 11:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Help

Hi. If you have any questions about a template such as infobox canal, post your question on the talkpage of the template. Otherwise click on Help on the left panel to find places to ask for help Gbawden (talk) 11:54, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

You might also want to say hello at WikiProject UK Waterways - see WP:UKW Gbawden (talk) 12:01, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

As you have gathered, I'm new to this game, and it's not even easy to see how to talk! But this should now reach you, I hope. I think I've understood the inbox Canal, and it's a very useful piece of code developed, I gather, by the UK waterways group. In source mode, I'm copying and pasting, and then entering the available data. However, some pages have a river template where perhaps the canal template would be better suited. I've had another alert on inadequately referenced text for the canal from Nieuwpoort to Dunkirk. I will revisit that now. Thanks again. Best, David Article declined OK, I understand this was misuse of the Sandbox.David-waterways (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Nieuwpoort-Dunkirk Canal

Hi David-waterways, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. I noticed your recent changes to Nieuwpoort-Dunkirk Canal. There seems to be a lot of new, good information there, as well as some corrections, and a couple of references, so thanks for that. On the other hand, a lot of it is unreferenced, and it needs to be. I was going to just revert the whole thing due to the unreferenced parts, but wanted to give you a chance to fix it up first by adding sources.

As a friendly tip going forward: it's sometimes a good idea to break up a large-ish edit like this one that ranges over different parts of the article into multiple, smaller edits. That way if you missed a reference in one part, or if an editor has some issue with a portion of the change, at least the entire thing won't be reverted. This might even be your best approach here: a self-revert, followed by adding your change back in again piecemeal, with references, but I'll leave the decision about how to best approach this to you. Thanks again for your contributions, Mathglot (talk) 18:23, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi, just sent message to GBawden and forgot the 4 tildes to sign, so that's lost! Thanks for this alert, I'm grateful for the chance to revisit, by self-reverting and then adding changes back selectively. The issue here is that there are so many things I've experienced in the field and written about that many things come out without any specific reference imposing itself. I visited this canal and the Ganzepoot and other sites with a group of 40 members of the Canal Society of New York State in 2012. The memories are quite fresh!David-waterways (talk) 19:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I understand, but we can work together on this. One of the things to know as an editor here is about citation of reliable sources. As an encyclopedia, any material likely to be challenged needs a citation to a reliable, secondary source. I remember early on seeing an article about an event I had attended, and there was something in the article that I knew was wrong, because I was there and saw what happened. I tried to correct it but was reverted, because I had no source for it, other than my own eyes and my memories. I was rather annoyed at the time, but I realized later that these guidelines and policies are for the best. If Wikipedia became a listing of whatever anybody said they saw, it would soon be chaos, and useless.

If it helps, think of it this way: Wikipedia is a compendium of information about things that have been written about before somewhere else, in sources that the community here agrees are generally reliable. It's not about what is true, necessarily, because having editors argue about what is true would be instant chaos and the destruction of the project. It's about was been published in reliable sources, and can be verified by putting your hands on those sources, and looking it up yourself. That's what Wikipedia actually is. And those reliable sources can sometimes be wrong, which means Wikipedia can sometimes have wrong information even with cited material, but that's better than no citations and chaos, and any encyclopedia is subject to those same issues. (Plus, that problem can be mitigated somewhat by using multiple reliable sources, and the principle of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".)

So, again, welcome; and as you add material to articles, think about sourcing the information. Unfortunately, eyewitness testimony isn't enough: you could be standing right in front of the Ganzepoot and editing the article based on what you see right in front of you, but that could (and should) be reverted, for the reasons stated. In a case like that, you can add that information to the article Talk page without sources, and that may alert someone else who does have a source for the information you would like to add, so it's a good way to proceed.)

I'll leave you be to go fiddle with Nieuwpoort-Dunkirk Canal for a while. When you're done, if you'd like me to have a look, just {{ping}} me here. (That means, add {{ping|Mathglot}} to your reply; that will alert me that you have said something.) I hope this all makes sense, and helps. Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 20:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Reverted your changes after no further attempt to discuss or to address the problems noted. But you can still do what was suggested earlier, i.e., add the material back in smaller pieces, and with citations. Cordially, Mathglot (talk)

Nieuwpoort-Dunkirk Canal

Hi, please advise if you think more fiddling is needed; and could you possibly help me with an automatic redirect that prevents me from editing a new article that's needed? I renamed Canal de l'Est as Canal de la Meuse, because the historic name is no longer used; it's now two separate canals, but the second, Canal des Vosges, redirects to Canal de l'Est (of which it is a part, so I cannot edit and transfer the relevant contents to the Canal des Vosges page. This should be a relatively quick fix, but I have no idea where to go! Thanks. Cheers Forgot to sign, sorry! David-waterways (talk) 18:37, 24 July 2017 (UTC) @Mathglot: Gbawden (talk) 13:39, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Issues with moving pages

I've solicited a couple of you out there, but it's better if I flag it up here. I'd be very grateful for a hand with an unfortunate redirection that currently blocks me from filling a new page for Canal des Vosges. Entering that automatically directs to the page Canal de l'Est that I have now moved to Canal de la Meuse. So instead of getting an empty article that I can then fill, I'm sent back to what is now Canal de la Meuse. It should be a quick fix, but I haven't a clue how to proceed. Earlier versions of the page are not helping either. Many thanks, whoever could help me with this. Also, I've been able to rename at least two articles, where required by context, but not others, and I don't understand why. The process for releasing a filed name change would also be most helpful. Example is Canal de la Marne au Rhin, requested name as per practice for other French canals, instead of Marne--Rhine Canal with the ugly (Word-imposed) long dash. Thanks David-waterways (talk) 20:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Can you restate this as a request? What is it you want to do? Also, it sounds like you're piggybacking multiple questions together, and it's not clear to me if they're related, so let's just start with the first one, take care of that, and then come back to the others later. Mathglot (talk) 08:37, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, and I'm sorry if I confused you! First problem is that Canal des Vosges redirects to Canal de la Meuse. I need Canal des Vosges to come up as a blank page, which I will then fill in, using some of the contents from the original page Canal de l'Est. This redirection predates my interventions, so I have no idea where to go to cancel it. Thanks!David-waterways (talk) 08:51, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

You can go here to request your change: WP:RMT. Before you make the request, be sure to have a citation or reference to point to that substantiates that you are correct, and include that with your request. Please {{ping}} me there when you make your request.

I did not see your July 25 comment to me above, because I'm not watching your page. In order to attract the attention of an editor, be sure to {{ping}} them. I already mentioned this to you before, above. This means (among other things) that whatever you write below, I will not necessarily see or know about, unless you take steps to notify me. Mathglot (talk) 00:04, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Lys Leie Rivers

• Lys River
  • The river Lys (Leie in Dutch) is a river in France and Belgium, and a left-bank tributary of the Scheldt. Its source is in Pas-de-Calais, France, and it flows into the river Scheldt in Ghent, Belgium. Its total length is 202 kilometres (126 mi), and it is canalized throughout most of its length.

• Leie
  • The Leie (Dutch and German) or Lys (French) is a river in France and Belgium, and a left-bank tributary of the Scheldt. Its source is in Pas-de-Calais, France, and it flows into the river Scheldt in Ghent, Belgium. Its total length is 202 kilometres (126 mi).

Explain to me what the difference between these is, and how they are not WP:content forks. I don't understand where you're going with this. wbm1058 (talk) 23:18, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have (possibly) confused you by posting on your talk page instead of mine! I publicly thanked you for your recent edit, without actually seeing what you did on the page, after the intervention of original compiler Auric. To answer your question, my point was that English use favours the name Lys, which happens to be also the French. We do, after all, refer to fleur de lys. So for a river which flows for half its course in France, it makes sense to have River Lys as the title of the article instead of the Dutch Leie. My Flemish colleagues would fully accept this logic. So the English article should be named River Lys or Lys (river), in my view.David-waterways (talk) 08:39, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

OK, then you have created a content fork. I'm reverting your edits that started the fork. The proper way to handle this is to move the article from Leie → Lys River in order to change the title of the article. See Help:How to move a page for the condensed guide. However, note that this change to a longstanding title might be viewed as "potentially controversial", so see also WP:Requested moves for instructions on how to request a move on the article's talk page, where after a week-long discussion, a consensus will hopefully emerge on what the best title is for this article about a river. Thanks, wbm1058 (talk) 13:38, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

So much to learn! Many thanks. Never thought of 'talking' on the page itself; makes sense, and will doDavid-waterways (talk) 13:42, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

I started a discussion at Talk:Leie § What's the more common English name? wbm1058 (talk) 14:55, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks, and I've put my suggestion there David-waterways (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Finesse (barge)

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A tag has been placed on Finesse (barge), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, group, product, service, person, or point of view and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic. Please read the guidelines on spam and Wikipedia:FAQ/Organizations for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Atlantic306 (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi, I didn't see a button, but I contested the speedy deletion on the (now empty) page. I've just read the last part, and will go down that road to try to retrieve the entry, complete with its info box. This is most emphatically not advertising, but presenting an activity in a unique craft of heritage value, an integral part of the landscape of French waterways in particular. Thank you for any assistance you may be able to provide in unlocking this one (and Johanna) David-waterways (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Johanna (barge)

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A tag has been placed on Johanna (barge), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, group, product, service, person, or point of view and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic. Please read the guidelines on spam and Wikipedia:FAQ/Organizations for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Atlantic306 (talk) 16:55, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

See edit under Finesse (barge) above. Not advertising, information sourced from web sites and written by me in my own style. Level playing field is aimed at, where each hotel barge is described and referenced, and seen by readers to be one of a family of heritage vessels operated on European waterways (and mainly in France). David-waterways (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Ships vs barges (or maritime vs inland)

This user is a participant in WikiProject Ships.

Joined as invited. I feel something needs to be done for clarity, in relation to inland vessels.

Hotel barges as drafts

On the recommendation of experienced authors/editors, I have placed an article about the hotel barge Aslaug as a draft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Aslaug_(barge). I'd be grateful for any thoughts or contributions before attempting lift-off into outer Mainspace. To be clear, I am not representing any barge or operator, but providing information about the sector of hotel barges, a small but significant element in France's tourism industry. These craft are an integral part of the economy and landscape of French waterways, and are of interest to the general public as such. In the logic of WikiProject Ships, the barges I am adding are as notable and worthy of interest as the 8-10 barges that are already covered on Wikipedia. Thank you in advance!

Speedy deletion nomination of Grand Cru (barge)

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A tag has been placed on Grand Cru (barge), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, group, product, service, person, or point of view and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic. Please read the guidelines on spam and Wikipedia:FAQ/Organizations for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Atlantic306 (talk) 15:03, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Finesse (barge)

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

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A tag has been placed on Finesse (barge), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, group, product, service, person, or point of view and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic. Please read the guidelines on spam and Wikipedia:FAQ/Organizations for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Atlantic306 (talk) 15:09, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation, ships and barges

Thanks to The Bushranger for the link from Aslaug to Aslaug (barge). Just a little uncomfortable with the use of the word ship. 'For the ship, see Aslaug (barge)' is confusing in both American and British English, where inland craft are never referred to as ships (unlike German, for example). Hence my suggestion about separating inland craft and ships in Wikipedia ship lists. Feel free to ignore this rant, but it would be more correct to write 'For the hotel barge, see Aslaug (barge).' Just a suggestion! Best regards David-waterways (talk) 08:17, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Restoration

Hi, you need to ask the deleting admin Boing! said Zebedee (talk · contribs) for the restoration of the barge articles but he may refuse. The sales links made them look like advertisements so should be avoided, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 19:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Saint Louis (hotel barge)

Hi, this article is too promotional so if you can make it less like an advert that will help its long term future , thanksAtlantic306 (talk) 16:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC) Thank you, I will edit as suggested. Regards David-waterways (talk) 19:39, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Le Phénicien (barge)

The article Le Phénicien (barge) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No indication of notability...

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 21:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Deletion nomination removed after edits to improve notability (citing Voies Navigables de France) and sources enabling verification. Further improvement to be effected, e.g. to link to the downloadable VNF report on hotel barges (only cited as article stands at present). Two external links added, also contributing to notability and enabling verification. Thank you for your attention David-waterways (talk) 14:33, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

November 2017

Hello, I'm Zackmann08. Thank you for your recent contributions to Le Phénicien (barge). I noticed that when you added the image to the infobox, you added it as a thumbnail. In the future, please do not use thumbnails when adding images to an infobox (see WP:INFOBOXIMAGE). What does this mean? Well in the infobox, when you specify the image you wish to use, instead of doing it like this:

|image=[[File:SomeImage.jpg|thumb|Some image caption]]

Instead just supply the name of the image. So in this case you can simply do:

|image=SomeImage.jpg.

There will then be a separate parameter for the image caption such as |caption=Some image caption. Please note that this is a generic form message I am leaving on your page because you recently added a thumbnail to an infobox. The specific parameters for the image and caption may be different for the infobox you are using! Please consult the Template page for the infobox being used to see better documentation. Thanks! Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 21:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

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