User talk:DataNStats

Your reverts

while reverting please be careful not to reinsert bare references. So your edits are reverted. Egeymi (talk) 04:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. DataNStats (talk) 06:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring and Reverting to an incorrect estimate

Hello, it seems that you have been making edits while logged out. You have been reverting the page for indigenous peoples of Mexico too many times without going to the talk page and listing why your change should be added. The 19% figure is inaccurate and not even used much by the Mexican government for its inaccuracy. Indigenous peoples of Mexico are counted by language and culture, which is why the 6% and 10% figures make more sense as they include fully indigenous Mexicans who still follow an original Mexican culture. The 20% figure is sued for self identification of those who consider themselves indigenous descent, whether it is partial or full indigenous descent, this can not and should not be used for the indigenous peoples of Mexico page, it counts in people who would regularly be counted as mestizo by the Mexican government and inappropriate to count as indigenous, it is already used throughout the page but shouldn’t be used as the official number for said reasons. Please do not continue to revert peoples edits without reason on talk page, it will be reviewed by moderators and counted as edit warring. PedroDonasco (talk) 18:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Per the 2020 Mexican census, which was the most recent census, the indigenous population is 23,232,391 and this constitutes 19.41% of the national population. There is no mention of "partial-indigenous ancestry", or "mestizo" in any of the cited census material. On page 50 [9], regarding the people who live in "indigenous households", there is a footnote stating: "Nota: Se identifica como población indígena a toda la población en viviendas donde la jefa o jefe, su cónyuge o alguno de los ascendientes de éstos, declararon hablar alguna lengua indígena.". This is clearly distinct from the self identified indigenous population, as many of those who are indigenous do not speak their indigenous language, nor do their parents or grandparents. On page 56 of a different source[10]it states clearly: "El Censo de Población y Vivienda 2020, a través del Cuestionario Ampliado captó información sobre Autoadscripción indígena. Los resultados permiten estimar que 23.2 millones de personas se autorreconocen como indígenas, las cuales representan 19.4% de la población mexicana. Por sexo, el número de mujeres que se considera indígena (11.9 millones) es mayor al de hombres (11.3 millones), aunque porcentualmente representan 19.4% con respecto al total de mujeres y al total de hombres de 3 años y más de edad.". Posting your opinion and representing it as a fact is posting misinformation. DataNStats (talk) 18:21, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Half of the people in the 19% figure would be counted as mestizos and not as indigenous peoples within the country of Mexico, they do not have an indigenous culture or speak an indigenous language so they would be considered as mestizos in most of Latin America including Mexico. And self identification is known for not always being correct and it should not be used as the first source for the official number of indigenous people in Mexico but rather used within the page as it is but noted that it is based on self identification instead and most would be considered mestizos within the country. I know and have read all of the source materials and I can confirm it. You are reverting edits constantly which is considered edit warring by admins. The 10% figure is more often used due to its reliability as the number of indigenous peoples in Mexico who have an indigenous culture, identity, and language and they would be considered as indigenous by the Mexican government. PedroDonasco (talk) 18:28, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

What source can you cite which states that half of the people who are counted as indigenous in the census are "mestizo"? You cannot post such a source, because it does not exist. That is your opinion. That is not stated in any of the material you or I have cited. As to the rest of your response, that is all opinion. I am not interested in discussing opinions. I am interested in posting what the census says, not what we think it says. DataNStats (talk) 18:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

[1]https://www.inegi.org.mx/contenidos/programas/ccpv/2020/doc/Censo2020_Principales_resultados_EUM.pdf

page 50, regarding the people who live in "indigenous households", there is a footnote stating: "Nota: Se identifica como población indígena a toda la población en viviendas donde la jefa o jefe, su cónyuge o alguno de los ascendientes de éstos, declararon hablar alguna lengua indígena."

[2]https://www.inegi.org.mx/contenidos/productos/prod_serv/contenidos/espanol/bvinegi/productos/nueva_estruc/702825198060.pdf

El Censo de Población y Vivienda 2020, a través del Cuestionario Ampliado captó información sobre Autoadscripción indígena. Los resultados permiten estimar que 23.2 millones de personas se autorreconocen como indígenas, las cuales representan 19.4% de la población mexicana. Por sexo, el número de mujeres que se considera indígena (11.9 millones) es mayor al de hombres (11.3 millones), aunque porcentualmente representan 19.4% con respecto al total de mujeres y al total de hombres de 3 años y más de edad." DataNStats (talk) 18:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Based on self identification, that doesn’t mean they are counted as indigenous by the government, the Mexican government themselves states what is qualified to count as indigenous whether speaking an indigenous language or practicing and following indigenous culture and tradition, most of those people would be considered as mestizos by the government and it wouldn’t be accurate to state that estimate as the indigenous peoples of Mexico number, it is a clear overestimate of the true number. PedroDonasco (talk) 18:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, https://www.gob.mx/cms/uploads/attachment/file/325813/biodiversidad_2_dos_48-79_eckart_boege.pdf supports the claim of 10% of the population being indigenous and oh, within the page for indigenous peoples of Mexico it states “The number of indigenous Mexicans is defined through the second article of the Mexican Constitution. The Mexican censusdoes not classify individuals by race, using the cultural-ethnicityof indigenous communities that preserve their indigenous languages, traditions, beliefs, and cultures. As a result, the count of indigenous peoples in Mexico does not include those of mixed indigenous and European heritage who have not preserved their indigenous cultural practices.” PedroDonasco (talk) 18:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

That source references the 2000 census and the 2005 intercensus. You are posting outdated information from previous census' and saying that is a more up to date census is inaccurate? That is nonsense. DataNStats (talk) 18:43, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

That source references the 2000 census and the 2005 intercensus. You are posting outdated information from previous census' and saying that the more up-to-date 2020 census is inaccurate? That is nonsense DataNStats (talk) 18:44, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

No, I was showing an example. https://www.coneval.org.mx/InformesPublicaciones/Documents/Educacion_poblacion_indigena.pdf PedroDonasco (talk) 18:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Also, https://www.inegi.org.mx/contenidos/saladeprensa/aproposito/2022/EAP_PueblosInd22.pdf PedroDonasco (talk) 18:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Those sources back up exactly what I have posted. Neither of those two back up the misinformation you attempted to misrepresent as fact. I don't think you've reviewed any of this material. Either that or you actually believe your opinion is a fact. DataNStats (talk) 18:52, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

The first lines of the one literally are:

• En México existen 23.2 millones de personas de tres años y más que se autoidentifican

como indígenas, lo que equivale a 19.4 % de la población total de ese rango de edad.

• La población total en hogares indígenas1 en 2020 fue de 11 800 247 personas, lo que

equivale a 9.4 % de la población total del país.

• El tamaño promedio de los hogares indígenas fue de 4.1 personas.

• El Censo de Población y Vivienda 2020 identificó que en México había 7 364 645 personas

de tres años y más hablantes de lengua indígena, lo que representó 6.1 % de la población

total del país en ese rango de edad. DataNStats (talk) 18:53, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

It’s a fact, they both show the 10% and 6% figure for Mexico, not the 19% figure. PedroDonasco (talk) 18:53, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I just posted a direct excerpt from that link. You are literally lying. I am definitely getting a moderator to review this. DataNStats (talk) 18:56, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

That second one was a mistake, I had a different one saved, here. http://estadistica.inmujeres.gob.mx/formas/tarjetas/Poblacion_indigena.pdf PedroDonasco (talk) 19:00, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

As well, the 19% estimate is shown but within the actual country they would be considered as mestizos, even by the Mexican government themselves. PedroDonasco (talk) 19:02, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

So let me get this straight. You're saying the data says one thing, but you don't agree with it... Where is source that says "X" amount of people who identify as indigenous are actually mestizo? Where is the source. You still keep posting material that does not make your opinion a fact. Sir, wikipedia is about FACTS, not OPINIONS. DataNStats (talk) 19:08, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

In the Wikipedia article itself, it states “The number of indigenous Mexicans is defined through the second article of the Mexican Constitution. The Mexican census does not classify individuals by race, using the cultural-ethnicity of indigenous communities that preserve their indigenous languages, traditions, beliefs, and cultures. As a result, the count of indigenous peoples in Mexico does not include those of mixed indigenous and European heritage who have not preserved their indigenous cultural practices.” Therefore a count based on self identification would not be considered accurate based on this. PedroDonasco (talk) 19:12, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

They’d be considered as mestizos by the Mexican government and not as full indigenous peoples. PedroDonasco (talk) 19:13, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

The census could be an overcount or an undercount, and that is true of any census. Saying anything beyond that is speculation without data to cite. You can't speak for what the government "would" do. That is an opinion. We have the 2020 census which collected data regarding the indigenous population of Mexico, again, speaking on anything beyond what the data is and represents is speculation. DataNStats (talk) 19:22, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes but it still has guidelines for what counts as full indigenous people vs mestizos who identify themselves as indigenous. Saying the 20% estimate is the most accurate and displaying it as the first one will definitely spread misinformation as a large part of those are legally recognized as mestizos by the Mexican government. The 20% figure should still be used throughout the page, but it shouldn’t be the first thing people see so they know how the Mexican government themselves counts Indigneous peoples. PedroDonasco (talk) 19:28, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

The guidelines for who was counted as indigenous per the 2020 census was whoever identified as indigenous. That's not my opinion, that's literally what the census says. 19.4% of the national population of Mexico is indigenous based upon self identification. If you have a problem with the results of the census then I suggest contacting INEGI personnel and attempt to have them change their data collection methods so that the results will be more in line with what you believe it should be. DataNStats (talk) 19:37, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I do not need or want to, they literally state within the Mexican constitution on who is counted as indigenous, they report a 20% estimate based on how Mexicans view themselves, not on how the government identifies the Indigenous peoples of the country, they base it on culture and language as opposed to self identification, which is almost always more accurate, like I said, the 20% estimate should be used in the page but it shouldn’t be shown as the primary estimate. PedroDonasco (talk) 19:44, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

What other statistic are you proposing be represented? All 3 sets of data are posted: 23,232,391 people who were identified as indigenous based on self-identification (19.41%)[1] 11,800,247 people who live in households where at-least one parent speaks and indigenous language (9.36%).[2] 7,364,645 people who speak and indigenous language. (6.1% of the population) DataNStats (talk) 19:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Based on the Mexican government standards, the two based on indigenous language should be used instead, they are more accurate to actual indigenous peoples who retain their culture and language. PedroDonasco (talk) 19:49, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

You cannot pick and choose what is true and what is not. If you're saying one set of data from the census is true, but another set from the same census is not, then that's disingenuous. All 3 sets of data are from the same census, and they are said to represent exactly what they represent in the article. You're saying Mexican government standards as if the census operated outside of the Mexican government. INEGI is part of the Mexican government. DataNStats (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, and the 20% estimate is supposed to represent the way Mexicans view themselves, not the way the Mexican government views them. The other estimates were specifically taken by the government to calculate the number of full indigenous peoples over Mexico, not those who identify as it. The Wikipedia page is about full indigenous peoples of Mexico who speak an indigenous language and who follow indigenous culture like the Tenek and Nahuas. The 20% figure represents those who just view themselves as indigenous or partially indigenous but they don’t pertain to a specific ethnicity or follow any specific culture, so by the Mexican government themselves, they are viewed as mestizos unlike those within the 10% or 6% figure who are identified based on culture and language. PedroDonasco (talk) 20:22, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

The census doesn't say who is or who isn't mestizo. Again, if you want to represent something as fact provide some material that backs up what you're saying. You are still giving your opinion and trying to speak for what the Mexican government "would" do. That is speculation. What the Mexican government -did- do was take a census in 2020 in which 19.4% of the national population 3 years or older identified as indigenous. That is a fact. Your speculation is not fact. Where is the data that the Mexican government published that says -only- 10% of the population is indigenous, or -only- 6% of the population is indigenous. The census says 10% of people live in households where someone speaks and indigenous, and 6% of the population speaks an indigenous language. Saying those numbers represent something more or less than what the census says they represent is SPECULATION based upon your OPINION of interpretation of things outside of the set of data. Either post a source or give it up. No moderator is going to agree with representing an opinion as fact over data that has sources. DataNStats (talk) 20:36, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

“The number of indigenous Mexicans is defined through the second article of the Mexican Constitution. The Mexican census does not classify individuals by race, using the cultural-ethnicity of indigenous communities that preserve their indigenous languages, traditions, beliefs, and cultures.” It states it within the Wikipedia page itself! The Mexican government counts indigenous peoples by culture and language, and like I said before the 20% figure should be used within the page, but not as the primary figure, due to the way the Mexican government themselves counts indigenous peoples. PedroDonasco (talk) 20:45, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

What you are quoting is not directly from the Mexican constitution. Per the actual constitution of Article II:

The Mexican Nation is unique and indivisible. The nation is multicultural, based originally on its

indigenous tribes.

Descendants of those inhabiting the country before colonization and that preserve their own social,

economic, cultural and political institutions, or some of them.

Consciousness of indigenous identity will be the fundamental criteria to determine to whom apply the

provisions on indigenous people.

Indigenous community is defined as the community that constitutes a cultural, economic and social

unit, settled in a territory and that recognizes its own authorities, according to their customs.

Indigenous people’s right to self-determination shall be subjected to the Constitution in order to

guarantee national unity. States’ and Federal District’s constitutions and laws must recognize

indigenous peoples and communities, taking into account the general principles established in the

previous paragraphs, as well as ethnic-linguistic and land settlement criteria.

Apparently what you are quoting is a misquote of the constitution, and frankly that needs to be updated too so that people like you are not misinformed. Speaking an indigenous language isn't the sole criteria for someone to be indigenous per the constitution. There are indigenous communities in Mexico that don't speak their language due to decades and centuries of adopting the Spanish language. DataNStats (talk) 21:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Here is a link to the constitution. [3]https://www.oas.org/ext/Portals/33/Files/Member-States/Mex_intro_txtfun_eng.pdf DataNStats (talk) 21:08, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

January 2024

Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Acroterion (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Being disagreed with isn't vandalism. Acroterion (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Deleting validated information is vandalism. How does one disagree with hard data that has cited sources? That is not logical. DataNStats (talk) 18:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

No, it's not. Other editors disagree that the material should in included. Content is not permament once inserted if there are valid reasons for it to be removed. I take noposition on the validity of the removal, but calling those who remove it and give reasons for it vandals isn't an appropriate response. You're being disagreed with, stop treating other editors like that. Acroterion (talk) 18:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, what is the appropriate response to deletion of valid data? Report it on the edit warring page? DataNStats (talk) 18:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

It can be reported if there have been more than three reverts of substantially similar content (all parties must respect 3RR). Otherwise, work it out on the article talkpage. If you can't find consensus, seek dispute resolution. Acroterion (talk) 18:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. DataNStats (talk) 18:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello, regarding this matter I have submitted a request for a third opinion. A response was never received for that request in the talk section of the page. The user who I have been in disagreement with agreed a third opinion request was necessary, but has edited the subject matter we have been in disagreement over almost immediately after the lapse in page protection . I am unsure of what to do from here, as we have not discussed the matter further, and reverting on my end will only result in edit warring from the other user (Uruguayan989). What next steps need to be taken? DataNStats (talk) 02:24, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

You can try dispute resolution: see WP:DR. Acroterion (talk) 03:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I have resubmitted a 3rd opinion request and submitted a dispute resolution request. DataNStats (talk) 04:28, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the content dispute at Indigenous peoples of Mexico

Please note that I have protected the article Indigenous peoples of Mexico for two weeks, as you and another editor have been in a protected edit war regarding content on that article for several weeks now. If you are unable to reach a consensus on the article's talk page, there are forms of dispute resolution available, such as a request for a third opinion. I highly encourage both of you to discuss this on the talk page (using dispute resolution as needed) during the time that the article is protected. Should edit warring continue once the protection expires, the editors engaged in edit warring may be blocked from editing, so please keep this in mind. Thank you. - Aoidh (talk) 18:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello, regarding this matter I have submitted a request for a third opinion. A response was never received for that request in the talk section of the page. The user who I have been in disagreement with agreed a third opinion request was necessary, but has edited the subject matter we have been in disagreement over almost immediately after the lapse in page protection . I am unsure of what to do from here, as we have not discussed the matter further, and reverting on my end will only result in edit warring from the other user (Uruguayan989). What next steps need to be taken? DataNStats (talk) 02:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello, it seems you want to keep undoing the reorganized infobox, as a consensus has already been agreed upon by me and another user we have agreed to reorganize it, please do not keep reverting it otherwise it will be seen as vandalism by other users, try to talk in the talk pages instead. PedroDonasco (talk) 06:34, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

The 20% has been agreed to be added as long as it is specified, I provided the information on my talk page where I discussed with the other user. PedroDonasco (talk) 06:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

You leaving me out of a discussion isn't a third opinion. That's just you circumventing a consensus on our discussion. You are violating the terms of edit warring by continuing to change this information when we have not come to a census. DataNStats (talk) 07:14, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, what you agreed upon with that user is different from what you posted on the article. You asked that the information be presented in a certain way, then you went and changed it to a different format. DataNStats (talk) 07:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

No, what I ask for is clarification to not lead to misunderstandings of the subject matter, It is clearly stated within many Wikipedia pages, including the Spanish ones where the original edits are from that this is the case, the 20% figure, yes many would be considered mestizos and many of those who have partial indigenous ancestry to choose to identify more with their indigenous side. I am just trying to clarify the information, I even posted multiple cites within my talk page, since you and the other user were against my removal of the 20% figure, I decided to reach a consensus with the other user, the other user was more willing to come to a consensus where it is clarified, you can use the cites of Demographics of Mexico#Ethnic groups#The present day where it is clearly stated and cited, and to my talk page where I cited 10 sources from the government. PedroDonasco (talk) 07:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

The 2020 census makes no mention of who is fully or partially indigenous. The census collected information on who "is" indigenous based on self-identification. On what basis are you claiming "some" people are not "fully indigenous"? Racially, culturally, ethnically? These qualifiers are not referenced in the census. If you are suggesting that some people who identify as indigenous are not racially 100% indigenous, then where in the census can you cite this as being fact? We have already been through this conversation, and that is why I requested a third opinion for this discussion. I will attempt to bring the person who had this discussion with back into this discussion so that a real consensus take place. DataNStats (talk) 07:35, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and it asks if they consider themself indigenous based on culture rather than ethnically. I am clarifying that they are partially indigenous ethnically and I have even showed the cites in which the government uses the 12 million figure as the number of indigenous peoples in Mexico. It is also shown within many studies that are conducted by those close to the government that the 20% figure includes those of partially indigenous ancestry, I suggest you read the various Wikipedia pages talking about the indigenous figures of Mexico, PedroDonasco (talk) 07:41, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Also I suggest you read Wikipedia:What "no consensus" means, if we fail to reach a consensus or to get another third party then the content you propose wont be added. PedroDonasco (talk) 07:51, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not proposing to delete anything. I am against the misrepresentation of data based upon original research. You should read the article on this Wikipedia:No original research. Your claims are baseless. DataNStats (talk) 07:54, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not “misinterpretation” otherwise I wouldn’t be against your changes. It is proven by many studies that have taken place throughout Mexico. PedroDonasco (talk) 07:57, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

You are proposing to revert it to your edit instead, however if there is no consensus then the current edit will remain. PedroDonasco (talk) 07:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

We must revert it back to before you changed it after the page was locked down then. Your new edits constitute edit warring from our previous discussion since we still have not reached consensus. DataNStats (talk) 08:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

It does not, I have reached a consensus with another user and it shall remain until a consensus is made to revert it. PedroDonasco (talk) 08:03, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright, since a consensus has been made, I ask for you to review the talk page in the Spanish version of the page and voice your thoughts on adding the edits to the page, Here. PedroDonasco (talk) 02:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)