User talk:Creative Lizzie

Welcome!

Hi Creative Lizzie! I noticed your contributions and wanted to welcome you to the Wikipedia community. I hope you like it here and decide to stay.

As you get started, you may find this short tutorial helpful:

Learn more about editing

Alternatively, the contributing to Wikipedia page covers the same topics.

If you have any questions, we have a friendly space where experienced editors can help you here:

Get help at the Teahouse

If you are not sure where to help out, you can find a task here:

Volunteer at the Task Center

Happy editing! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 03:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for all the info and sharing of knowledge! I am excited to be a part of this community! I love links. It is my ancestor, Jonathan Baldwin Turner, who inspires me to express my thoughts vocally or in print. My father was a newspaperman also and great at putting thoughts to print. My hope is to do this better on Wikipedia when I see a need. I love to see accurate reports of people and events. Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello Houseblaster!

I thought I would enjoy editing and writing about a great American. I listed a few URL sources in my sandbox and they were taken down. Those URLs were a good link to what was needed in the bio for reference. Feeling like my hands are tied with the editing process.......not exactly encouraging. I realize that this is a tool to keep everyone in line but it is discouraging to me. Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Sorry I did not see this reply until now. I have reviewed your contributions, and there are three big pieces of advice I have for you. One is write in a boring, formal style. Lines like At this very moment in time, Turner was that person who brought his views and philosophy, where his vision and tenacity changed the course of history in the United States. are too fancy for Wikipedia. Likewise, refer to people (like President Lincoln) using their last name (do not call him "Abe" or even "President Lincoln"). The second is you should click the "cite" button in the editor to add citations,. That will allow you to create little blue numbers that you can click on. Let me know if you have any questions! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 03:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your help! I am so grateful!! I was just getting ready to contact you for feedback. I assume this how I "talk" with you. I even felt "humanities" was a bit above most people's thinking. I will adjust the language next and make sure Lincoln is expressed correctly. The citations in blue will come next. This has been an enlightening experience for me and am so honored to have the privilege. Thank you so much......I will forever be grateful for you allowing me to bring the truth and correct story for this man. He gave his all. I believe Morrill was a great American and hero as well. I hope to bring justice to all these connected souls and stay within Wikipedia's guidelines. There is much more to this history than meets the eye. At this point, I am writing and citing from an enormous amount of reading and sources. This is quite an effort to fit all these puzzle pieces together. I want to add photo proof as well in the future. Love the help, support and ideas!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I just realized I said I was going to give you three pieces of advice, but only gave you two! My third: you should add citations in the very same edit as you add the claim. I know you plan to get to it later, but "verifiability" is of the utmost importance on Wikipedia. It is not something that can wait until the end, if that makes sense. Best, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 21:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thanks you for your editing and suggestions! I am so grateful for the help!! I totally understand what you are saying because I could say anything in the bio. Currently, I am recovering from tooth issues but will start the citations pronto.....it was all backed up with my citations which were not clear to you. It would have helped if my citation nos had been left up there for me to edit even though they were not credible. I know they were goofy online.....I am in the learning process but understand so much more. All my work has meant something to me. I will try to add a few citations a day as that is all I will probably be able to be able to figure out unless I am on a roll. Also, it is quite evident that I have changed a good portion of the last writer's work so the citations are all that more important and I must prove these words. I will eventually also be changing all the photos. Thx again!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Just started the citations and it is going relatively well. I just had one issue with a citation I tried to create. Can you please check that for me and let me know what to do? So love what all of you have done creating Wikipedia!!! I love the how you work things out and love that you care for truth!! Trophies for all! Creative Lizzie (talk) 01:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Which citation? I don't see anything in your contributions. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 01:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I can't believe this but I must have added 7 citations to a tab page I saved. Okay, the curve lives on. Back to work tomorrow. I will get the first half done. At least, I know how to do it. Still recovering from dental work but get the citations into the page. Too human in this case for sure!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 01:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

They all look awesome. Hope you get well soon! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 01:44, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Gosh, so happy you are happy!! I worked a good part of the day on this. I just saw some red on the citation that I created today at the bottom of the page. Working to add a few more every day to make sure I am an honest biographer!!:)Have an excellent rest of the weekend!! Thank you for the get well wish!! Working on that, too!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 01:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I hadn't published the citations. They look like they are in the page so you can check it over!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 01:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi HouseBlaster! You have been such great help! I have steadily been working on the bio. I have added 40 citations and plan to add a few more. I will also be checking the references at the bottom of the page and hopefully can delete them as I check them out. I think the writing flows better and thank you so much for your help and editing. Also, thanks to all who helped with any part of this bio including Arajay!! Can you specifically find anything else you want me to change? I plan to add more info about the reverend's religious views which were quite complex. I will be adding photos that help support the writing. Still celebrating my opportunity and effort to add to this man's story which has touched my heart in so many ways. This includes all the connected parties who made colleges and universities a possibility. Always all the best and more!! Creative Lizzie Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to Arjayay, too!! Can you also remove my citation boxes, please? Thank you!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Dear Houseblaster,

I want to thank you for letting me experience writing for Wikipedia. I learned a lot and that was a stretch but very interesting. Since this evaluation of my work is going on currently. I would like to see some of those thoughts so i have the opportunity to respond. I think that is only fair. I still think the Land Grant article is weak in it prehistory along with Morrill not being connected to what was going on prior to his presenting his work to congress. Both pieces of writing are half truths. More inclusive reading should be done for all of it. I find it very interesting that Arajaya finds lots wrong with what I wrote but is soooo protective of the Morrill bio. The bio made him look entirely responsible without a look at the times. That is like writing about the fish but not including its environment or the fishbowl. Please keep me up to date on all criticisms that I can respond to and support what I did with the writing. Thank you Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the citations box. I also wanted to let you know I trimmed some extra detail that you added to the article. I know it can be discouraging when something is removed from the article, but don't worry! It is a normal part of the process of writing on Wikipedia. Some lines I removed include detail about the state of agriculture in the US (However, as the colleges and universities have developed over time; it is this radiating network of knowledge that has continued to grow across the America. Combined with contributions from private industry, the United States has research results it needs to lead the world agriculture.), because it is not about Turner himself. I also removed This was a man for all time whose huge commitment was to empower all. Jonathan Baldwin Turner was not content with the Status Quo; sometimes one must give up everything to achieve a better world. He was the true mover shaker; he lead with a torrent of value that we cannot begin to comprehend. Turner never took the easy path. because it is not neutral: we don't take sides at Wikipedia. I have also added some of the famous ‹The template Fake citation needed is being considered for merging.›  tags in some areas. I also tagged the sentence It is said by some people that Turner had some influence with Lincoln about the end of slavery as needing attention (see our guideline on "weasel words" for more information). Let me know if you have any questions! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh, thank you, that is fine, HouseBlaster. Some of these comments have inspired me from citations. I believe on neutrality, too, just got carried awaaaaaay! I also just do not understand what is needed for the pdf issues for citations at the bottom of the page or how to solve that. There is something else in the citations, too. I have no problem adding citations at this point, especially since I have learned how to do it. Just need to add a few a day. It is clear to me that I am more of a creative writer than a journalist like my father! His work was all about reporting and writing what actually happened. I should learn from that. However, I salute my efforts and thank you very much for your time and effort with me!!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

On the letters to Turner on asking about how to improve their educational system..........I cited Yates and Blackford on this very issue. The citation would be the same as these.....please take a look. This was early and long before the bill to congress. There are probably more letters to add. I could add one more.....Turner was a huge letter writer!! Love removing "weasel words" and love the lingo! Creative Lizzie (talk) 23:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

If you click the "cite" button, there should be a tab for you to "reuse" a citation. That way, you can use the same source to cite as many different sentences as you wish! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you wonderful HouseBlaster!! I saw the reuse button and it should help a lot! Creative Lizzie (talk) 04:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello HouseBlaster! I hope all is well with you. I have spent a lot of hours trying to edit and finish finish this bio. I have had further help from my cousin with finalizing and editing this piece also. Special request: I really would like the citation box at the top removed and the general references box at the bottom removed. Please look at my work. Many thanks!! I have added close to 50 citations and have removed all the references. Please help me with this. Thank you for all the support you have given me!! Creative Lizzie. Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Nice work! I have removed the banner. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 19:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you!! Did you remove the references box at the bottom? I have worked hours on this trying to be fair and clear. I had cousin Robert, related to JBT, help me slick down the writing. He knows his documents being a doctor and lawyer. I am going to start reading about adding photos. I do see a small edit on Morrill in the future. Of course, I will be fair and know he worked his tail off pushing that bill through congress. There will also be an edit of the Land Grant System. There must be balance for these great men!! I am sooooooo proud of myself putting this together. It has been a major stretch and I so appreciate you giving me this opportunity!! All the best, Creative Lizzie Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Creative Lizzie. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on the page Jonathan Baldwin Turner, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for article subjects for more information. We ask that you:

• avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
• propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the {{edit COI}} template);
• disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest § How to disclose a COI);
• avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam § External link spamming);
• do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted.
If you "had cousin Robert, related to JBT" help you, then you are also related, so you have a clear conflict of interest - Arjayay (talk) 19:58, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi ArjayayCreative Lizzie (talk) Thank you for your message! I am familiar with that Wikipedia issue. Rest assured this was only a grammar edit. Please do not worry about any undue promoting!! Actually, the editor took a lot out that didn't make sense. I am sure HouseBlaster saw no bias and probably noticed that there we plenty of citations to support everything I wrote. There was no collaboration other than grammar and clarity. I honestly think my piece is really of no particular bias in any way......just truth. However, the author Of the Justin Morrill bio gave no credit to Turner. Morrill had a pretty good sized ego (my opinion) and said he didn't remember Turner. He definitely wrote a letter to Turner who was a very loud voice in Illinois in the 1840's and 1850's! It is more than likely Justin Morrill got a lot of his thinking from Turner who was promoting the concept much earlier in Illinois. This is really obvious when you look at Turner's letter collection and what he said at the Granville Convention. Morrill did push the bill hard through congress, no doubt and deserves so much credit for that. I am currently comparing the 2 works.....The Plan for Industrial Colleges by Jonathan Baldwin Turner in 1852 and Morrill's Bill of 1857 and 1861. I would more than likely want to edit any document that is truly biased by leaving out information. SoI would like to do a small edit on the Wikipedia Morrill biography. This seems to be commonplace in various encyclopedias where the necessary research has not been done and sometimes just promotes one person. Very common! I am on no campaign to overly promote anyone. I speak and write supported truth! Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Creative Lizzie and Arjayay! A couple of things:

• I have not read everything you wrote, so I am not in a position to say whether you were completely neutral
• Arjayay is concerned about a COI you have with writing about Turner himself, in addition to writing about Morrill
• Unless it is directly stated in secondary, independent reliable sources (not just your opinion) that he got the idea from Turner, we cannot say so on Wikipedia. We need something like a journal article which says directly "Morrill got the idea from Jonathan Baldwin Turner", not just letters written by Turner or Morrill.
• Comparing the 2 works is what we call original research, and is completely off-limits. It is one of our big three policies, right alongside being neutral and verifiable. Have you included any similar "synthesis" of sources?
• I honestly forgot that Turner was your ancestor. Looking back, I see that he is your second-great grandfather. I did warn you that you had a conflict of interest, and that you should write in a sandbox. I am going to review the article, and we can go from there.

Best, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

At this point, I do am totally disappointed. I will happily take my work and start a pdf or book. I supported everything I said. Just take it down.... I am not fond of having a Wiki policeman tear me apart. Your Arjayay is looking to judge and never a kind word. I think there is definitely bias in a lot of Wikipedia's bios.....very slanted!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Having fun reading and inspecting my citations. I worked hours locating them. Arjayay also noted all my edits trying to make the bio as good as possible. If there were a tiny flaw in a painting, Arajaya would find it!! I am 75 years old and I think I did a good job. A large part of my work is absolutely correct. A.is a major whistleblower.....also responded about too many edits for me..?? If you decide my work is off, I do not want it chopped up by Arajaya who loves to find errors or weakness. If we part, I want you to know that I do not want anyone's wording or sequence to look like mine at all. The original writer had references and I found many many beyond that. I do not want you to use any of my references beyond that or any of my original work. I will be watching. Arajaya seems to be busily looking for every little thing that is wrong and I believe that is a detrimental personality.....not a strong plus for Wikipedia. You should be kind with the person's effort especially at first. A.is already trying to find connections and errors to make what I did wrong. There is a lot of reading!!! A. is VERY critical, ready to pounce and I suspect there are always some weaknesses throughout all encyclopedic writing. I am a retired teacher of 40 years and believe me, I brought kindness and something good to the student before making a suggestion. Arajaya would benefit some instruction on how to work with people and be an effective kind teacher or person. So negative and so sad!! I would not be able to work with a teacher like this nor have I seen someone so negative trying to instruct....way over the top!!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 01:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

If you tear this apart, and make it a product of all of your thinking, I want it taken down. This is especially if Arajaya has any part of breaking it up. I can use the work in a short book! So take it out!! Take it out Creative Lizzie (talk) 02:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Creative Lizzie, part of working on a collaborative encyclopedia is further editing by others. It is our third pillar: any contributions can and may be mercilessly edited. I have no intention of tearing it apart, but I will be ensuring that it complies with all policies and guidelines (such as written from a neutral point of view and without any original research). You are welcome to save the current version of the article and do what you wish with it, as long as you follow our policy on reusing Wikipedia content. In fact, here is a permanent link to the version of the article right after I removed the citations tag. That link will work, forever.

I am not trying to antagonize you; I am trying to help make sure as many of the changes you made can stick. Peer review is a standard part of the writing process. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I think most of my work is compliant. I will try to be patient. I thought most of my work was objective. As I said so much better than what was there. My research was extensive!!! Now, so you know, I could not write in the sandbox because the font was brutal for me and hard to read. I had cataract surgery not long ago and this font was a zero for me to use. I just did my best. After you read all the citations for my work, you will see what I saw. That Morrill has gotten way too much of the credit for the thinking. Morrill should be called "Father of Legislation" which was a very trying job. You or the rest of you need to check all the writing that has been done for Turner online. There is a lot of support for lack of credit and support for Turner's lobbying and giving fiery speeches. If I made a conclusion or statement, it would be because of what I read. I see some comments as more of a connective statements. You also should read "The Plan for Industrial Universities" which was written by Turner for the Granville Convention in 1852. This is where I see the lack of thought and support for Turner doing the early land grant thinking for years before the bill went through. So read on and you will see this very info supported.I think there are always a number of circumstances that cause some issues like me having probably 70 edits or more. I am a newbie. I am proud of my effort with this! The conclusion looks like I was working to create a bias piece. That is the negative thinking of A. I like how she interpreted slick! On my mind. It was free of double words, sentences that made no sense,wrong spellings, wrong punctuation and other issues like that. This Wikipedian is what I call presumptive and a negative thinker! I think I could publish this in many places. I have nothing to hide. Turner was a very extreme, brave, smart and compassionate soul. I learned so much about him. For instance, he walked 125 miles to see his sick mother. I do hope the Wikipedians at least enjoy knowing more about Jonathan Baldwin Turner. Creative Lizzie (talk) 03:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I have had NO time to synthesize my citations.If I were writing for myself that sounds like a good idea. I am sure the group will synthesize them. This whole piece took me at least 30 hours including reading. Thank you for making me feel like a criminal! That seems to be the view of other people, too. I will always remember this attitude and approach especially from Arajayay. She is very aggressive here. I probably should have talked about this bio with the University of Illinois in the first place. Also, I feel your Land Grant doc has a one sentence mention of my ancestor. If you look at this information and his history honestly you will see the years of speeches and lobbying that were in the forefront of the bill even being presented and then finally approved. All along my ancestor was working with congress people, Lincoln and the public to support the bill. He was friends with Stephen Douglas and he wanted him to present the bill.That means that the congress would have heard these voices. Your

Wikipedia article is a partial truth and does not talk about the early development of the whole land grant idea. That is an imperfect description of its story and a partial historical,not whole truth piece. That is quite obvious if you study JBT's history. You also might read JBT's book....The Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

HouseBlaster.....In the Jonathan Baldwin papers in Illinois. letters to Turner are included including Justin Morrill.....who said he did not know Turner!! Also, there is a letter from the great abolitionist in the US, Frederick Douglass, a true self made man!! Charles Sumner was an abolitionist, senator and statesman. These letters show that Turner had a connection with some of the big names, heroes and statesmen of the day! Then there is the chapter on Lincoln on theThe Life of Jonathan Baldwin Turner. This shows Turner was interacting with some great people of the day. Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

That is a problem: it is original research (specifically, "synthesis") to say Turner was interacting with some great people of the day because we have letters from Douglass, Sumner, Morrill, and Lincoln. We need a source which explicitly says Turner interacted with some great people of the day. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

HouseBlaster....I really like you, your kindness and explanations. However, you are going to have a tough time proving I was biased. I definitely want to know what you consider bias!! Please share that with me. I made a point to try to be as neutral as possible knowing the situation. The Morrill and Land Grant articles are half of the truth. Why do you think an English women would have the answers to bias just because a cousin helped me with grammar?? You should be better informed also. You need to read Mary Carriel's book and remember Turner was minister. He had interesting views on religion but I believe he is one to tell the truth. You can find the book online and it is a fairly quick read. Please be sure to read the Lincoln chapter and look at all the letters that were sent back to the Turner family. BTW, I am not much of a liar or conspirator myself. I realize I am not the perfect Wikipedian. I have found your Arayjay a bit of a negative. I do see this in our world where people have to tell you where and how you are wrong. For me, I was considering doing more for Wikipedia but that is doubtful now. I probably will make a suggestion now and then. Since you are probably overseeing my edit and stripping, I want you to be absolutely sure that there is an issue and please explain it to me! Plus I like support evidence! You know how that works!! I want a chance to respond!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 21:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

There fact that you have a conflict of interest is not a bad thing, it just means that you are prone to accidentally introducing biased language. Let me repeat that: a conflict of interest is not a bad thing, it just means that you are prone to accidentally introducing biased language. For example, you wrote This was a man for all time whose huge commitment was to empower all. Jonathan Baldwin Turner was not content with the Status Quo; sometimes one must give up everything to achieve a better world. He was the true mover shaker; he lead with a torrent of value that we cannot begin to comprehend. Turner never took the easy path. This is a subjective opinion, and has no place on Wikipedia. I am compiling a list of all changes I made, so that you can see what the problems were. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I see that and would happily have altered it, knowing how Wikipedia likes facts only. I definitely understand more than when I first started. That part of my work does seem preferential, but really is absolutely correct. I appreciate that my work is in YOUR hands making necessary changes! I hope the work otherwise remains in tact. I guess time will tell. My only comment is that I am grateful for your help, but I am not very happy with how all the criticism came primarily from A. with so much power. I did read the Criticism of Wikipedia wondering if I was the only one that felt this way. In my teaching years, I have tried very hard to make sure I did not impart any of my great criticism or negativity unto children...... I have usually treated adults the same way. I think kindness speaks louder than lots of codes and corrections being slammed on your work by a rule enforcer especially when one is learning. The key thing here is that it is not inspirational!!! Writers should always feel that they are supported and inspired~~~ the violations should have been explained as a beginner. However, I do understand that this is a very big system and there is a mass solution. I would've happily stayed in Wikipedia without all the slamming. You really need to watch the big whistleblower! Arajayay seemed very ready to tell me what is wrong, post multi codes but Ideally could have written a little note, Also, she could have told me how to correct iwork without saying she had to do this and that to your work. I think this is worth discussing in Wikipedia and exactly how to correct or slow down the negativity. Believe me there is enough of that going on in the world! Wikipedia could definitely make the writing of a document a more pleasant experience. Talk about help versus constant coding or explain the coding especially with a beginner! To a beginner, that is really powerful and overwhelming!! Please TALK about those code procedures and how they could slow down a writer or how they are handled without and explanation how to correct. I primarily mean beginners! Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Houseblaster.... My lawyer cousin is wondering about the boxes and when they will go down. Please let me know what is happening with the piece! I wish you would take my work down when editing it. I also do not like to see these code boxes above something I put my heart into. I suspect that is A's way of letting me know she's boss! I understand the editing but the displays are so disrespectful! Please take my work down! This is one reason why I will not be back!! I hope you will not have Aravajayaa's thinking in my work. If you rework the idea she has, I would understand that. I am not fond of her system of criticizing! Please be fair with your evaluations of my work. Remember that I spent 30 hours on this bio as a beginner. I am tired of seeing boxes from the Queen of Codes. She loves to slap her work at the top of my creation without any communication or educating. I want other Wikipedians to look at how often she puts up code boxes. Please take my bio down!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Please stop harping on Arjayay. It is not productive, and quite frankly I am getting a little frustrated with how you are attacking them.

There are two boxes on the article: one for a short lead, and one for a conflict of interest. I personally—not Arjayay—placed the short lead box, because the article has a short lead. Arjayay placed the "conflict of interest" box because a major contributor—you—does have a conflict of interest. We don't remove boxes until the problems have been fixed, so they will be remaining until the problems have been resolved. I anticipate being able to remove the conflict of interest box, but I do not intend on writing a longer lead. If you want to draft a neutral, original-research-free lead, we can work to remove that box.

And I want to be very clear: the article is not "your" bio. See Wikipedia:Ownership of content: No one, no matter what, has the right to act as though they are the owner of a particular article (or any part of it). The article, including changes you made to it, will remain up indefinitely. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 01:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I see that and would happily have altered it, knowing how Wikipedia likes facts only. I definitely understand more than when I first started. That part of my work does seem preferential, but really is absolutely correct. I appreciate that my work is in YOUR hands making necessary changes! I hope the work otherwise remains in tact. I guess time will tell. My only comment is that I am grateful for your help, but I am not very happy with how all the criticism came primarily from A. with so much power. I did read the Criticism of Wikipedia wondering if I was the only one that felt this way. In my teaching years, I have tried very hard to make sure I did not impart any of my great criticism or negativity unto children...... I have usually treated adults the same way. I think kindness speaks louder than lots of codes and corrections being slammed on your work by a rule enforcer especially when one is learning. The key thing here is that it is not inspirational!!! Writers should always feel that they are supported and inspired~~~ the violations should have been explained as a beginner. However, I do understand that this is a very big system and there is a mass solution. I would've happily stayed in Wikipedia without all the slamming. You really need to watch the big whistleblower! Arajayay seemed very ready to tell me what is wrong, post multi codes but Ideally could have written a little note, Also, she could have told me how to correct iwork without saying she had to do this and that to your work. I think this is worth discussing in Wikipedia and exactly how to correct or slow down the negativity. Believe me there is enough of that going on in the world! Wikipedia could definitely make the writing of a document a more pleasant experience. Talk about help versus constant coding or explain the coding especially with a beginner! To a beginner, that is really powerful and overwhelming!! Please TALK about those code procedures and how they could slow down a writer or how they are handled without and explanation how to correct. I primarily mean beginners! Creative Lizzie (talk) 03:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the lesson on synthesis! Yep, that was my interpretation!! I do enjoy learning new terms and ethics.....just not being bombarded by a multitude of codes and how badly/shady I did the work. I think most humans can agree with that. Once again it is the total opposite of how I have taught. I also basically have learned that people respond to one or two corrections versus five or six at once. This is a ??? I am totally happy with the revision of my work. Many thanks, Houseblaster!!:) I still see the essence of my work. It is always nice when an older person can learn a new trick!! This was a big stretch for me and I will always remember your kindness. The big tip for Wikipedians even as volunteers, is that you (Wikipedians) can help to bash and greatly discourage a person who is trying to write. The process of learning is a gradual build up of support and then suggesting the necessary changes. The constant codes come off as red flags waving around a student's head in a time of so much uncertainty. If someone steps up and tries they should be celebrated for even making the effort. one code at a time and interpreted. There is a lot of self-teaching in Wikipedia! I do understand I was writing where my eyes could handle the print and my work was out in the open. The sandbox did not work for me. Also, I needed help along the way, more info from you, the teachers is needed in some cases on the process and definitely more explanation on how to correct writing or how the regulations work. Now Arajaya was busily slapping up the codes expecting a lot of self teaching from the student!! It would've been nice if she had put in some kind suggestions on how to make things work. When I was trying to write, I found trying to interpret all the codes stopped my journey of writing fluency. I would say if there is a volunteer in Wikipedia to explain the citations versus or how to do a required correction, that could make a huge difference for some learners. If boxes are put in your work but without explanation is tough. I know there is a strong self teaching part. Maybe a box with a little explanation and the "how to" from the Wikipedian would help. In my years of teaching first grade, and even older students I used the same technique of appreciating the work and then giving a prompt. I learned when a child writes one letter for a word then that is a wonderful beginning and older students worked well with the same process.....slow but building support with suggestions for learning. As I teach painting and work with adults; the same teaching technique works!! Lots of regulations all at once are demoralizing and challenging. Examples of what to do or not to do are encouraged for new writers. Frantic policing, constant code violations all at once is quite a turnoff !!! Please refer to the examples of Arajaya constant and plentiful coding. Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Jonathan Baldwin Turner

I have had to make several amendments to your edits. In particular, you need to add references correctly, please read and follow Help:Referencing for beginners. Thank you - Arjayay (talk) 23:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Arjavay! I appreciate the work and help! I had no idea my work would be online in the sandbox. However, I just got this very message from HouseBlaster and was planning to get right to it. All the numbers of sources I put in are absolutely correct. I would never ever make up a source. I have been reading for weeks. Yes, there is so much to learn. Fortunately, I have saved my sources and I am glad you also left them at the bottom of the page..... thank goodness. I also took photos of the locations where I supported the writing.....that helps significantly. Otherwise, I would be starting from zero on their location. When writing creatively for me, it is hard to have the citations and editing exact. I haven't done anything like this for 50 years!!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Arajay, I have left 40 citations on my Jonathan Baldwin Turner bio. I probably will be even more. Would you please take down the citation needed boxes? Can you also look at the writing and see if tone, continuity, flow, etc. are closer to being right? Maybe that box could go down too? Thank you so much, creative Lizzie Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:36, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

If you think about it, Turner was born 120 years ago. There wasn't much of a connection there at all. Very little has come down to me from the family. All I really knew is that Turner worked with Lincoln and Morrilll presented the bill. The is a great masterpiece mural of the 3 of them in the library at U of I library, Urbana-Champaigh. That is what the university thought about all of it. Did you happen to look at all the letters my ancestor wrote which is evidence of his thinking and involvement in Illinois and other parts of the country? What I really want to know is how my work is biased? Everything I wrote was based on what I read! What is the bias? Where is the bias? Can you prove it??? Show me the bias!!!!!!! Explain it to me!! I am looking for a full blown explanation of what you and your colleagues think is the bias!! I would be surprised! My cousin only corrected grammar. Love your quick to condemn theory and I laughed when you decided "slick" was definitely a code word meaning contrived for bias!! It really does not look good for Wikipedia making such comments especially coming from someone who isn't even an American. I am not fully knowledgeable of England's history but being related to her royals and nobles made me do research on the ups and downs of the Scottish and English. My tenth great grandfather was the King James of Scotland and scary though it is, King Henry the eighth was my eleventh great grandfather. I am Scottish and English on both sides and have a multitude of those royal/noble connections!! I am also related to many English explorers like Hudson. I am European and could easily write a paper of the collision course that had the English and Scottish constantly at war! The true story of Jonathan Baldwin Turner NEEDS to be out there. Now I noticed you live in the England. I happen to know that many English are just not fully aware of American culture. For instance, some English might think the west should have John Wayne riding a horse in the prairie and what they know is largely in movies or one trip to Anerica. I consider my bio very neutral and I made a point to make it so. You need to prove to me that I had my own agenda and please be specific and exact with support! BTW, I asked for the citation box to go down and you just left it up which proves the total policing nature of your placing boxes everywhere showing your great authority!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 21:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Creative Lizzie, this is a standard part of Wikipedia when you write about something with which you have a close connection. Writing about someone you are closely related to – like JBT – is strongly discouraged on Wikipedia. Arajay has not said you are biased: they said you have a conflict of interest, which leads to the potential of bias. That is why I am going through the article, to identify bias and remove it. I am also checking for original research, and ensuring source-text integrity. Accusing Arajay of being a "policeman" is not going to help anything. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 21:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

A.....I want to add that nothing should be taken from the Morrill article only added. It is a partial truth bio. Morrill could see that Illinois was becoming very interested in Turner's initial plan for the land grant. This idea is original to the earliest days of the country but not pursued. If you do all the reading on Jonathan Baldwin Turner, you should see how he brought the idea again into view and lobbied it early in the late 1840's and 1850's. It really is just lack of knowledge for you to tear apart what you haven't studied. You are a good policewoman but you need to do some serious reading to find out why Morrill even jumped on the idea. Study the Granville convention of 1852, The Plan for an Industrial Universities...written in 1852 by Turner and his work https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Land-Grant-Act-1862/dp/B0096I0VZG and be sure to read all my citations which I spent hours locating for Wikipedia. There was one article written in the internet which discusses the issue in Morrill's favor. This clearly is a half truth. Of course the author was biased being from Vermont because Morrill was from Vermont!! Write me and tell about how I have made a mistake in my view of Jonathan Baldwin Turner. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Creative Lizzie (talk • contribs) 18:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Some more notes

Hi Creative Lizzie! I wanted to let you know I finished going through Jonathan Baldwin Turner and have removed all of the original research and ensured compliance with our policy of a neutral point of view. As such, I have removed the "box" at the top of the article.

I have tagged some more issues:

• LinkedIn is not a reliable source, because anyone can post anything on LinkedIn (which is why Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source!). As such, I have tagged the paragraph

  Turner was displeased with the political process that saw the University of Illinois (or "Illinois Industrial University," as it was originally named) located in Urbana, Illinois, far from the industrial workers of Chicago. Turner spoke at the laying of the university's cornerstone, and his words "Industrial education prepares the way for a millennium of labor." remain in stone above the university's main square.

  with "", because it is sourced to LinkedIn.
• There are a lot of citations to books, but citations books should ideally have page numbers

Of course, you are welcome to work on fixing either of those, but it is completely up to you. If you are satisfied with how the biography currently looks, you should be proud of the work you put in – it shows! As a little bonus, here is what the JBT article looked like before you made any changes. It has certainly come a long way! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

HouseBlaster~~~ Thank you so much for your wonderful work and I can't believe that you redid all the citations. I think I had a good start on them. We have to remember that I am at newbie! Yes, I know the bio has made quite a journey and I will try to put the page numbers into the writing. I totally understand why you specified them. I am so glad you're happy with the work now. I definitely see why Wikipedia is a factual representation. I think working together on this bio made it a pretty special piece. I so appreciate all of your hard work!! I have really just learned so much! It is so so exciting that it is more of a complete article and that the are boxes down. Great! Is it possible for me to use the original and submit it to the University of Illinois? Obviously, it doesn't look like it does now. I do have a good sense of my original work with the new revision. So we worked this out and have a finalized Wikipedia bio!! So exciting!! Thank you again for making this possible with all your hard work editing! I will need some time to do the page numbers, but I will do them! Creative Lizzie (talk) 03:27, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

One thing first: it is not a "finalized" bio. See Wikipedia is a work in progress: for as long as Wikipedia is around (which is hopefully a long time!), people will still be able to improve the article :)

It is absolutely possible for you to take any version (you can see the entire history of the article at Special:PageHistory/Jonathan Baldwin Turner; click on the dates to see how the article looked at the time) and use it for how you see. You might know that Wikipedia is "the free encyclopedia", but you probably don't know that "free" has a double meaning. It is free as in "no price", but it is also "free content" (think "free" as in "free speech"). This means you are free to do whatever you please with the content, provided you attribute Wikipedia's authors (usually done with a link to the Wikipedia article) and extend these same rights to others. In legal terms, everything on Wikipedia is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0. So, please reuse Wikipedia's content, including by submitting it to the University of Illinois! Just make sure you follow the terms of CC BY-SA 4.0 (which is super easy and not as scary as it sounds; all you need to do is follow the directions at the link). Your lawyer cousin should be able to help with ensuring you comply with the terms, and as always I am always happy to answer any questions you might have! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 04:46, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

HouseBlaster, you are indeed a great editor and representative for Wikipedia! I appreciate your broad knowledge and kindness. It is hard to believe how that original biography looked and what it has become today. Wow!! The bio now stands for many minds coming together to make an unbiased representation for Jonathan Baldwin Turner. I am sure my 2nd great grandfather would be proud but he was all about passion! I thought what you said was more the case about using the bio in sharing the reference to University of Illinois, but my cousin says don't bother. He is a doctor and a lawyer. He has written many articles for medical journals and is for thoroughly discouraged by what was said on that page for using the Wikipedia print. Print definitely has great power! It looks like Wikipedia has a good case to sue me if I use the bio if you took that page. We will look at it again at the info and will credit Wikipedia with all the necessary credits. Thank you for the encouragement, and I will share your thoughts with him. I believe the reason he feels that the Wiki page on reuse looked very complicated to him and intimidating. This is pretty much the way I felt also about the code boxes with no further explanation. I know the power of negative corrections in education. It is for this reason that I never used red to correct any work as basic as it seems. Most of my markings on schoolwork were great start redo some and I marked the work with cool colors. I tried to not make me the glowing power of the correction and always marking with cool colors. This is exactly how I would mark an adult's work. I also teach art and am very careful with that. I know I have the power to discourage somebody forever who wants to paint and draw. Enough said on that and even with all those thoughts, I am very happy with the outcome within Wikipedia framework. Special thanks to HouseBlaster with his being the primary teacher in understanding Wikipedia process! Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

HouseBlaster~~~ I have been trying to add page numbers to the citations. Some of those citations are from the web and have no page number. For example on the college of aces, there is no book and I just added another citation. I hope that works. Also, I have been referring to an online book which is a version of The Life of Jonathan Baldwin Turner. It does have page numbers but they are not the same as the book's page numbers. Quite frankly, I'm not exactly sure exactly how to add page numbers but assume it is on the citation's page. Right? I assume you click on page number and edit there. Many thanks for your help and clarity. CL Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:07, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

(I have moved this comment for clarity)

You have some very common questions! Don't worry about adding page numbers for sources which don't have pages. I have gone through and tagged the citations which need page numbers as – if it does not have a tag, don't worry about it. You only need a page number when the citations are to books/journals/other things with page numbers. And the page numbers should be the numbers in the book itself, not the online number. You are exactly correct about it being on the citation's page: just search for a "page" parameter, and enter the number. One thing: only enter the number itself. For instance, if you were citing page 25, write "25", not "page 25", "pg. 25", "p. 25", etc. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I tried to add a source to the Millenium of labor in Davenport hall, U of I but it took me to the sandbox which is tough to edit.https://uihistories.library.illinois.edu/virtualtour/maincampus/davenport/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 01:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

What sentence did you want to add that source to? I can try adding it myself. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Houseblaster~~~ I think it's the last sentence in educational activism, and it talks about the millennium of labor. I found a link that tells a bit about it. I would be perfectly happy for you to add citations that I find is it possible for me to add them in the sandbox! It is so much easier in the actual biography to add citations. the sandbox is very difficult for me. Here's the link.the sandbox is very difficult for me. Here's the link:https://uihistories.library.illinois.edu/virtualtour/maincampus/davenport/

Should I send my editing corrections and citations to you? Maybe you need to put another box up so I can put in citations for you? Anyway, thank you so much for all the work you've done with us and helping me! :) Creative Lizzie (talk) 03:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

If you want to send changes to me, go ahead! I have  added the citation as requested. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 14:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

There are a couple of sentences that would sound better with an edit. First one is......begins with these thoughts in mind, Turner shared the issue, etc.(edit)

Correction: He was the only Illinois professor, along with college students, who assisted slaves in finding freedom.

There are a few more paragraphs at the top which need editing in clarity as well.

Jonathan Baldwin Turner (December 7, 1805 – January 10, 1899) was a classical

scholar, ordained minister, professor, abolitionist and political activist. He was an early

voice in the social movement of the 1850s that produced the land grant universities,

which Delete---pioneered pioneering public higher education in the United States.[1][2] In 1835,

Turner married Rhodolphia Kibbe, and they eventually had seven children.[3][4] Turner

was the author of Delete---the A Plan for an Industrial University for the state of Illinois.

Convention at Granville in 1851.[5] He had laid out a plan for a national grant

for each state to have an industrial and mechanical college.[6] A similar plan was later

introduced in the Senate by Senator Justin Morrill and became law as the Morrill Land-

Grant Act in 1862. Turner was born December 7, 1805, outside of Templeton,

Massachusetts, to farming parents, Asa Turner and Nabby Baldwin. He was educated in

local schools before attending and graduating from Yale College (University). He was a

student of classical literature at Yale College, and excelled in Greek and English

composition. After being ordained as a minister and graduating in 1833, he eventually

set out for Ilinois, considered the wilderness at the time in 1833. Delete---to the wilds of Illinois.

Turner was summoned to fill a professor position at the newly organized Illinois College

at Jacksonville, Illinois, [7] where he taught every subject in the curriculum but

specialized in Belles-lettres, Latin, and Greek.[8] The Green brothers were students of

his----Delete--and Students of his, the Green brothers, add---and brought him in contact with Delete---the Abraham

Lincoln who, at this time, was helping with the harvest on the Green Family farm. A

young man at the time Delete---still, Lincoln heard of Turner's teachings and became interested Add---in them.

in Turner's religious views were the subject of an investigation by the Illinois

Presbyterian Assembly, and his views on abolitionism a subject of growing controversy.

Here's an additional link for Davenport Hall.

Jonathan Baldwin Turner (December 7, 1805 – January 10, 1899) was a classical

scholar, ordained minister, professor, abolitionist and political activist. He was an early

voice in the social movement of the 1850s that produced the land grant universities,

which pioneered Delete---pioneering public higher education in the United States.[1][2] In 1835,

Turner married Rhodolphia Kibbe, and they eventually had seven children.[3][4] Turner

was the author of Delete---theA Plan for an Industrial University" for the state of Illinois

Farmer Convention at Granville in 1851.[5] He had laid out a plan for a national grant

for each state to have an industrial and mechanical college.[6] A similar plan was later

introduced in the Senate by Senator Justin Morrill and became law as the Morrill Land-

Grant Act in 1862. Turner was born December 7, 1805, outside of Templeton,

Massachusetts, to farming parents, Asa Turner and Nabby Baldwin. He was educated in

local schools before attending and graduating from Yale College (University). He was a

student of classical literature at Yale College, and excelled in Greek and English

composition. After being ordained as a minister and graduating in 1833, he eventually

set out for Illnois, considered the wilderness at the time ADD---in 1833. Delete--- to the wilds of Illinois. In 1833,

Turner was summoned to fill a professor position at the newly organized Illinois College

at Jacksonville, Illinois, [7] where he taught every subject in the curriculum but

specialized in Belles-lettres, Latin, and Greek.[8] The Green brothers were students of

his and Delete---Students of his, the Green brothers, brought him in contact with Delete--- the Abraham

Lincoln who, at this time, was helping with the harvest on the Green Family farm. A

young man at the time still, Lincoln heard of Turner teachings and became interested

in Delete---themit.[9] Turnerreligious views were the subject of an investigation by the Illinois

Presbyterian Assembly, and his views on abolitionism a subject of growing controversy.

I hope these corrections look good to you too. It would certainly have been a lot easier for me to have corrected them for you. I do understand how much work you put into this! Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I would like to add pages 59-61 for the sentence about the Hedgerows. I did try to add it to the sandbox but it was tough!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:18, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

This article responds to the placing of the U of I in Urbana

https://publish.illinois.edu/ihlc-blog/2018/09/14/jonathan-baldwin-turner-reformer-and-visionary/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi! I am fairly busy this week, and I want to give this the attention it deserves. Therefore, I plan to get to this over the weekend. In the meantime, feel free to send me as many changes as you want! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 01:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your support, communication and editing! Thank you for your message and desire to help! You are a great volunteer and leader! That means a lot to me and my cousin. We will probably send the bio out to all related folks. Turner was a good man who gave a lot back to the world. I would say that whether I was related or not. We appreciate all you've done in making the work happen, keeping us posted and how you worked to keep the essence of the writing.:) I will continue to find page numbers plus a citation or 2. I definitely want to change the photos. The top photo needs to show Turner as a younger man and I will add a few more to help support the writing. So the top photo needs to be dropped out. I will send the pics to you. could you please tell me what the limit of photos is I know that you can go different sizes too. Thanks again! Have a wonderful week and all the the best!! CL Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Using images on Wikipedia is a little complicated. The first thing you should know is that to use an image of Turner, the image must be licensed under terms giving permission to everyone to use the image for any purpose, including for things unrelated to Wikipedia and/or for commercial purposes. In the lead, we generally like to use an image of the person in their "prime", which for Turner would be around the time of the Illinois's Farmer's Convention at Granville. Of course, we also like to use high-quality images, and the current lead image of Turner is high-quality for the time. I think moving that image to the "later years" section would be appropriate. There is no hard-and-fast limit on how many images are acceptable, but we do have a policy which says we are not an image gallery. For a medium-sized article like JBT, I would say two or three images of Turner (and perhaps an additional image of the boulder with a bronze plaque was placed in Putnam County, Granville, Illinois honoring the Granville Convention and Turner) is plenty. You can see our policy on images for more information, but that policy page is very long! Of course, I am happy to answer any questions you might have. Best, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 19:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

TY for the info! The "prime" photo is really needed at the top. I think I can get that one. I guess I need to get permission unless the photo print says otherwise. Totally agree the plaque would be a good addition. So how do I send the photos to you? I usually edit photos myself to make them clear as possible. :) Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

If you can determine that a photo is in the public domain, you don't need to ask for permission to use it. In general, anything published before 1929 is in the public domain in the US. This means that The life of Jonathan Baldwin Turner as well as anything published during JBT's lifetime is okay for use. To upload images, please use the Wikimedia Commons upload wizard. Wikimedia Commons is Wikipedia's sister website, and allows other Wikipedias (such as German or Spanish Wikipedia) to use the same image. Your Wikipedia account will work there, too (use the same username and password). We normally request that you upload both the original photo and the edited photo. Please remember to use a descriptive title, like Jonathan Baldwin Turner at the Granville Convention in 1853 (original) or Jonathan Baldwin Turner with Abraham Lincoln in 1862 (edited). Of course, please ask any questions you might have! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

You are just really great about helping me with everything! Great information about photos produced up to 1929. It is great to know that our photos of JBT will be in the public domain. Love that!! I will remember to upload the original and the edited photo. When I edit all photos, I just bring out the best in them and not alter their originality. As you know with editing, sometimes a missing eye will come back! There are ways to get rid of dots, odd textures, etc. that have developed through time and handling. Normally when that's done, there is a significant improvement in the overall look of the photo. I will be sure to give a title to the photo! I can't believe I'm saying this but I don't think I have a password. I assume I can create one? Thanks as always, for helping me, and I am enjoying the process more these days! Creative Lizzie (talk) 23:39, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

You need a password to create an account, so you have one. Now is a good time to make sure your email address is confirmed. Check out the steps at Help:Email confirmation, which will make sure you can reset your password if needed.

Try clicking here to access Wikimedia Commons directly. If you then click the blue "upload" button, you should be able to upload images. Let me know if that works! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 23:55, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Great! Love the help! I will try to get to this today. Thank you!

I have additional citation for the millennium of labor statement. This includes the location, building and Turner is in the article.

https://uihistories.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bin/cview?SITEID=1&ID=70

In the Introduction two. The life of Jonathan Baldwin, Turner, by Mary Carriel, there is an introduction by David D. Henry about Turner being forebear of the lant system. That would be page X. I'm certain that I will find all kinds of sources for this statement will still look. Please add this citation to the Father of the land grant system.

On the same introductory page, page X by the author, David de Henry, there is mention of Turner's relationship with Lincoln. Also page nos. for Turner's relationship with Lincoln in the life of Jonathan Baldwin, Turner, please sign (pages 251–255).

There is no page number needed for Turner's help with slaves. The citation, for this is an article about Turners hiding of slaves and it has no page no.no No page needed. Can you please take this additional print down. I find the flow of the bio slows down with these additions. Here's the link for one of Turner experiences with protecting slaves.

https://www.lib.niu.edu/2006/ih010607.html

I appreciate your help with this, as we all have worked so hard to Bring this bio along.

Many thanks to wonderful HouseBlaster!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Such great help for getting me started with uploading the photos. I believe I signed into preferences. Please let me know if I missed anything or did something incorrectly. Thank you, as always for your wonderful help! Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any contributions to Wikimedia Commons. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi HouseBlaster......found out I might have a broken bone in my foot! So that has kept me a step behind. I had the editing of the citations from a while back. I will get on the photos tomorrow! Look for them!! Thank you for your caring and being on top of the bio. I really want the bio to look its best!!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 03:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello HouseBlaster,

I am going to try and load up some of my photos that I have edited tomorrow. I have no idea how good they will look. The photos probably aren't as good as what the University of Illinois will send me. They will send me digitized photos that are JPEG! CL 104.220.9.14 (talk) 23:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi! It looks like you logged out—visit Special:Login to log back in. I have done the changes you suggested, and done some further copyedits. There are still three "page needed" tags, but the article is looking better and better! Nice work! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 21:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi HouseBlaster!

I think I am logged back in and reset the password. I don't know how I logged out but I have a lot going on right now! Thank you so much for taking time to make those changes.

You are the model of what a teacher is all about! My passion is still this bio that we have all created. I will get to those other pages needed probably this week. I have sent a request to the University of Illinois to get digitized photographs that are connected to Jonathan Baldwin Turner. I actually asked for four specific digitized photos and hopefully they will come soon. As I mentioned, I have redone a few photos and will send them to Wikipedia Commons. I am not sure of their resolution. There are two things that Jonathan Baldwin Turner is especially famous for specifically, and they include the plan for industrial universities, and the hedge rows. The hedge rows should be represented in the bio.....I have one pic showing the Professor's experimentation on his property. It might be nice to add a picture of how they were used on the prairies. Best to you and more later! 104.220.9.14 (talk) 23:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't look like you are logged in. Try visiting Special:Login to log back in. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 23:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I hope I am logged in now!! :) Creative Lizzie (talk) 23:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

You are now :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 01:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi HouseBlaster! I hope all is well with you! I have added some photos to Wikipedia Commons. I really don't know how well they will work for the bio. Anyway, let me know what you think. The one portrait of Jonathan Baldwin Turner with a bowtie is one of my favorites, but really needs to be edited. I tried to edit it, but I was not happy with the site I was using and was thinking of going somewhere else to improve it. CL Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I will add a description to each photo if you think they will work! Thanks, CL Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not seeing anything on Commons... would you be able to link to them? Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I hope this was the right place but maybe not!

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:UploadWizard Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

That is a link to the upload wizard. Click on the image itself, and send me that link? HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean the photo or the symbol for Wikipedia Commons? Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The photo. Alternatively, what did you title the image? HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 11:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Not yet but I will. I was not sure of the quality. Maybe the pics are hanging in limbo. I have one more image that I hope to add today. I will try to describe the pics I have done. Thanks for the help and support! Creative Lizzie (talk) 16:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

If it would be easier, you can email the images to me at wikimediablastergmail.com, and I can handle dealing with Commons :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 16:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe that the bots came through, took my tabs down and bam the photos are gone. Yes, I will send all photos and descriptions to you. Thank you so much for the option! Creative Lizzie (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

HouseBlaster......Your email did not go through for me. I clicked on your email address! I will check tomorrow. Stormy weather?? Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I never emailed you. You can email me, though! I don't have your email :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply and I think I made a mistake in the address. I will try again today! Creative Lizzie (talk) 15:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry! Note that my email is spelled wikimediablaster, with an "m". Wikipedia is one of the Wikimedia Foundation's projects, which include things like Wikimedia Commons, Wiktionary, Wikibooks, Wikisource, and, of course, Wikipedia. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I have just gone ahead and emailed you through Wikipedia. Ignore everything else and just reply to that email with the images :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 16:00, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay.....I was worried about the Tiff photo. My photo editor would not take it. I really think the frame on this photo is distracting and would like to see it removed or ? Loading up other images! Creative Lizzie (talk) 16:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry about the format. Would you be able to include the approximate year the photo was taken?

I can remove the border and the watermark, using a technique which avoids any quality loss (most crops involve quality loss, which is one reason why it is important to have the original version in addition to the edited version). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 16:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I had no idea about that! I will give you an approxiate date on that one. I will check on that! Creative Lizzie (talk) 16:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Here is the citation about the 20,000 lb. boulder. I was right all along!! Amazing weight!

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-checotah-times-jonathan-baldwin-turn/1970740/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Images

The image you emailed me, all uploaded to Wikimedia Commons!

I have created a new section because the previous section was getting long :)

I was able to do some investigation, and found an online copy of the image which was low resolution, but allowed me to confirm that it was taken in the 1860s. I have added the photo to Jonathan Baldwin Turner! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 16:24, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Great job! We thought he was about 58-60 something at this time. The photo leans a bit dark which was concern for me....darker than the original. This was why I wanted to lighten it up a bit. Can you do that? Ironically he resembles Lincoln a bit. Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done I requested that the photo be lightened a bit, and that has happened :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 17:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that is significantly better!! Many thanks!! That is quite an improvement on the other one. When it comes to art, I have a pretty good eye. The key thing to look for is contrast in the work and this one is really on the money! Lol Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

another thing that is interesting about this photo is, you can actually see how the photographer lit up his subject from the right! Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:38, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

One more idiosyncratic thought about the presentation: I really would like to see the top of the photo come down a bit on the top. There is way too much space above his head. The subject should be more accentuated bringing the top down. This is a cropping job. I am a nut on cropping. Thanks! Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

This is my forte! Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I have cropped the image slightly to remove a little at the top. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 17:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Better but needs to be a bit higher now.......probably half the distance you took out. This is indeed an art. He has a lot of negative space to the left and right so the top should balance that out. The top now too close to his head. So appreciate your effort!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The photo of him older should be taken out. It looks a little desperate to me and is quite scratchy. I would like for this great thinker to have a good looking photographic story. Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

If you divide the top space into thirds or 3 parts, you would take another one third off the top. Then it would rock!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I just saw the photo in Wikipedia and it looks great! Thank you for your patience and getting it to this point, and you follow directions very well! I try to follow directions at the best I can. Lol I have this highly developed I for art now at this age my mother was quite artistic. Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Wonderful editing of the photo! Thank you for your effort with that one!****** Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Nice photo of JBT and one of his last sale flyers for Osage Orange. The OO trees are all over Illinois. The Titan tree went down in a tornado.(Believe this tree was by JBT's house! Here's a link to the flyer and portrait.

https://kewaneevoice.com/kewanees-oldest-tree/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Morrill did not actually present the final passage of the land grant bill! Thought you might be interested in this one....https://www.library.illinois.edu/slc/wp-content/uploads/sites/73/2023/11/Turner-Woodblock-Notes_J.B.Turner-Residence_Christmas-1961.pdf Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:14, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Citation for the laying of the cornerstone, U of I https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-jacksonville-daily-journal-jonathan/1970696/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

This citation includes the dispute over the location of the U of I being in Urbana -Champagne or Chicago. Turner was unhappy with the location.Champagne or Chicago. Turner was unhappy with the location.https://publish.illinois.edu/ihlc-blog/2018/09/14/jonathan-baldwin-turner-reformer-and-visionary/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Take out the Mary Carriel Life of Jonathan Baldwin, Turner, page number, and put in this citation.Life of Jonathan Baldwin, Turner, page number, and put in this citation.https://publish.illinois.edu/ihlc-blog/2018/09/14/jonathan-baldwin-turner-reformer-and-visionary/

This citation covers JBT's continuous effort for reforming various areas of society. Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:24, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Please take out Mary Cariel's life of Jonathan Baldwin Turner citation for the Jonathan Baldwin Turner scholarship for aces and put in this citation. Thank you.. Thank you.https://ansc.illinois.edu/future-students/financial-support/graduate-financial-support/college-aces-jonathan-baldwin-turner Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I have gone through and done the citation improvements you suggested, and have done some basic copyedits to the article.

I think the photo of the older JBT complements the article well: we generally like to include photos of people when they were older, if their appearance changed by a lot (which is the case for JBT). I would be happy to replace it with a better photo of him at the same stage in life, if you happen to have one?

I tried to reply to all of your messages, but please let me know if I accidentally missed anything :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 21:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I just sent the older pic of JBT to you. It needs to be cropped as well. The librarian called it a cabinet card. I'm not sure what that means. Other than it is in library file cabinet. Great clear photo!

Thanks for all your help and support! I am impressed with your sharp and caring ways!:O) Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Wonderful and thank you!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I was hoping that you would take the prairie farmer pic out. Thx! Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

And that is  Done, too! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I assume you are looking at the other pics. Please let me know if I can do anything more to help. I am working on one more citation, etc. Creative Lizzie (talk) 23:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I am smiling!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 23:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I am glad you are smiling :) I don't need anything else, but am more than happy to help you with more citations! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the citations are almost done. I thank you for your help if needed. Please tell me about the other photos and the possibility of using them. TY Creative Lizzie (talk) 03:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what photos you want me to look at? I don't see a pressing need for more photos of JBT. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 12:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course,,,,,,,I am talking about the boulder and other ideas. Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't have any images of the boulder. If you want to email me one, I can take a look! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 17:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I actually have several ideas for pics. Remember, Jonathan Baldwin Turner is known for his land grant proposal and the hedge rows. I think it would be a good idea to put both those ideas out there with the portraits. None of this is bias and it's just fact I will try to send them to you in the next hour or so.:) Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello, HouseBlaster! I have probably the best link for the undergrad and graduate scholarship program for the university of Illinois. When you go to the site and click on about, there is everything you need to know about the scholarships. Here's the link.

https://publish.illinois.edu/jbtscholars/home/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

HouseBlaster,

he Creative Lizzie (talk) 19:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I have added that citation. It is still an entire paragraph that is sourced to primary sources, so I have tagged it as such. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 20:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

newspaper clipping about the Aces program andhttps://newherald.news/aces-welcomes-students-as-new-jonathan-baldwin-turner-scholars-p22377-103.htm

ranking/https://www.wcia.com/news/education/u-of-i-aces-engineering-graduate-program-receives-top-5-national-ranking/

https://www.scholarships.com/scholarships/jonathan-baldwin-turner-scholarships

https://www.agcareers.com/ag-education/scholarships/illinois/jonathan-baldwin-turner-scholarship.cfm

https://www.chicagoift.org/jbt-scholarship.phphttps://acsess.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.2134/jae1988.0033

https://brokescholar.com/scholarship/jonathan-baldwin-turner-scholarships

I hope these help with citations for the Jonathan Baldwin Turner Scholarships. I probably can find more if you need them. CL Creative Lizzie (talk) 23:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I would like all of you to consider my concerns about visual art interpretations as neutral. There are issues for me as an artist!

So House Blaster..... I am still on this issue of artistic license. I add this knowledge with honesty and caring about how Wikipedia understands/interprets artworks. My thoughts on artistic license are not just made up! I am well-trained in visual arts. Naturally, I mean no disrespect either, but I am a voice of understanding how an artist has an opinion and can make anyone or anything look exactly the way the artist wants. I felt you dismissed this notion rather quickly with referring to Wikipedia already figuring out bias. There

is room for much more thinking on how arts fit into the encyclopedia and how narrow that can be in trying to stay neutral.

Here are a number of people who have plenty of artwork in their bio. Such as William H Seward, who has a splattering of political cartoons in his unbiased Wikipedia  There is definite bias and viewpoint with political cartoons. Then you have major amounts of drawings and paintings in his bio. You may feel the subject of bias has been ironed out by Wikipedia! If you include visual artistic works, you are displaying the artist's viewpoint which is certainly affected by a strong viewpoint in a lot of cases!!! This includes everything for drawings, paintings, sculpture etc. These particular creations quite often include a viewpoint! I included an article about historical works of art that are inaccurate. This further.explains the possibilities of all visual artists including photographers!

Then there is a photo of Harding's house with political cartoons which are slanted. Every piece of visual art is going to have an artistic slant. No doubt about it. In my mind, this is a form of bias. I see a page for Wikipedia on artistic bias within the encyclopedia by no means is it entirely free of bias or maintaining neutrality.

So back to my Turner house print and wonder really how biased it is along with everything else artistically you have throughout Wikipedia. Turner had a big house because he

had 7 children. It is like a barn for a family. It shows the time with the horse and buggy. There's another house drawing with Turner standing in front with us pitchfork, so I guess he would consider that biased! I will send that one to you and see what you think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Seward

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_G._Harding

I've included a little article about artistic license which is a broad term and has been around for a long time. What is it? This article pretty well explains what

It means.

https://www.colinruffell.com/single-post/2016/08/10/artistic-licence

https://www.vox.com/2015/8/13/9148929/inaccurate-art-history

Thanks for your time with reading about artistic license, and its power!

CL Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

You are using "biased" as a synonym for "violating our policy on a neutral point of view", but that is not exactly the case. Another aspect of NPOV is also about giving things "due weight". For instance, our article on the Earth includes only a passing mention about flat Earth. Including any more would be undue weight. Including pictures of a certain aspect can give things undue weight.

I am going to be very clear, and pardon me being a little harsh: Nobody—and this includes you—has artistic license to do whatever one wishes to the article about Jonathan Baldwin Turner. And perhaps most importantly: Jonathan Baldwin Turner is not your artistic creation, to do with as you see fit. Just because you think an article looks better does not mean that it is the version Wikipedia will use. The point of including images in a Wikipedia article is not to "decorate" it. It is to illustrate encyclopedic concepts.

Those articles you mention are much, much longer than JBT's article. Therefore, they have more room for images without becoming an image gallery. If the JBT article were longer, we could include more images. If the JBT article were shorter, we could include fewer images.

Finally, it is getting late; I will get to adding the improved citations tomorrow :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I am not really looking at Turner. I am looking at the concept of artistic license. I don't care about the photo!! I knew this would be an issue and connected to the bio. I know it is not mine. I am not looking at decoration. That is a wild point of view. The point is that artistic interpretation is throughout the encyclopedia. I just want you to consider the idea. I am not looking for an image gallery. This response is over the top. There should be a place for discussion on artistic license and how it affects the encyclopedia. I think a disclaimer at the bottom of the page might be a thought about on how artworks are unique to the creator. Hard to hear but it actually could help protect Wikipedia. Creative Lizzie (talk) 02:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for misreading your comment. I fully agree that artistic interpretation is throughout the encyclopedia. We do have a centralized discussion area for addressing non-neutral content at the neutral point of view noticeboard. I disagree that we need a centralized place to discuss artistic license; we have too many noticeboards already (here is a list).

Separately, I have  added the new citation for the scholarship, but the doctoral scholarship still needs a non-primary source reference. Best, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 19:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

House Blaster, I think you're wonderful!:) Thank you for your kind response. Please never forget that I think all Wikipedians really mean well. I would suggest when leveling a code on a person's work that there is an accompanying message from that Wikipedian giving some nice prompts as well with an email. I have great respect for all people who volunteer and try to do so myself when possible. It was my first thought was I was concerned that you were so upset with what I was trying to say. I was thinking out loud generally speaking about how art is viewed in Wikipedia. I really don't care about the photos but want to get one more good one in there for JBT. The photo should be on the level of the portraits. I need to solve the boulder photo but have had no luck so far. I'm just passionate also about art in general and even how women, people of color and all people are even represented. When I realized when there was such a strong, artistic interpretation of the paintings, political, cartoons, sculpture and photos etc, it rang a bell for me. Then I started thinking about how Wikipedia would fare through such interpretations of all seekers of knowledge, I was concerned. For instance, when I was looking at George Washington and how exquisite he looked in some of his colorful uniforms. I just thought the artists really loved him and this is one aspect about love of a great leader. In reality, George suffered terribly with his teeth and I suspect he had a considerable amount of pain. This is evident when with another president a number of years later and when you look at some of the photographs of a Lincoln, you could feel his struggle. There is what I mean about artistic interpretation and license. How I love Wikipedia and how it has helped me including many others. This is why I've always tried to contribute to this wonderful informative online encyclopedia!! I started using Wikipedia more and more when I got deeply into ancestry and loved even doing other peoples' ancestries so they could share my joy. Studying history crossed over to my love my art frequently. I hope you continue to pursue this rather abstract thought about how people look at visual art. It is a very complicated idea to pursue. This is why I felt you might have a legal disclaimer that covers the whole thing. Good luck with all that. Can you please look at my citation suggestions and let me know if there's anything else needed? Many thanks to all of you for what you do for Wikipedia! Creative Lizzie (talk) 21:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

If you are in contact with anyone (perhaps a librarian at the university?) who lives nearby and is willing to take a photograph of the boulder, asking them is probably the easiest way to get a photo. I have looked at the citations, and the only thing we need is a non-primary source which talks about the doctoral scholarship. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Wow!! I was on that very page. I was just thinking I need to find somebody in Illinois who would take a picture of a good orange hedge for me. The tree is fine, but the hedge would be ideal with a close-up of the fruit. I understand hogs made their way through the thorny hedge.I'm sure I have some kind of family in Illinois. There was a wonderful pic of the hedge and boulder one online! But then a school is right by the boulder. I actually thought about a painting of that photograph. That would probably be an easy one to do. I am more of an impressionist painter and realism is probably needed! It possibly might be a good idea to contact the principal. That makes perfect sense! It would be an easy shot for sure. I suspect there will be money involved with that but that's Ok. I'm looking for an easy solution now. There has been a very good connection with the University of Illinois librarian. She has helped me tremendously. I am willing to try to hunt someone down on Monday or send out emails tomorrow. I have a foot in the door with being an educator! I will try that very approach and locate the librarian in Granville as an alternative. Thanks for the idea! Ironically, I was working on that idea! Thank you for working on the citations and I will try to find a doctoral link to the scholarships. Best and more, CL Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

HouseBlaster..... There is very little on dates outside of the University of Illinois sites. However, I just found this one possibility!the University of Illinois sites. However, I just found this one possibility!https://www.profellow.com/fellowships/fully-funded-phd-programs-in-agricultural-sciences/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem with that source is that it does not connect the scholarship to JBT. If there are no secondary sources, we can just leave the tag up for now (or delete the sentence entirely). Tags are not a problem, they just make it easy for future editors to see what might be a good place to start looking for improvements. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 01:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for looking at the citation and giving me feedback! There's nothing out there outside of University of Illinois as a source for the doctorate program. Please leave the sentence up so graduates can consider trying for a fellowship in agriculture or another related study of science. Hopefully in the future, there will be a link for the Aces graduate program outside of the university. It just wasn't out there for my search other than the one I sent you. This leaves the door open for someone to solve the citation! Now I will move on trying to find the Boulder photo and a good Osage Orange hedge photo with the fruit. Is there a room for both? Maybe the Osage Orange photo could be smaller. The Osage orange is called the Horse Apple because horses love to eat them. I watched a horse eat the fruit on Facebook. it is also called the Bois D'arc because it has been used for making bows! Apparently there is quite a lot that can be done with the wood and fruit. I was amazed! Creative Lizzie (talk) 04:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The image you emailed me, but very small. Note you can still click on it to see it in full detail!

I think there is room for both. It is possible to make an image appear smaller, and they don't need to be too big for people to get the picture (pardon the pun). You can always click on the image to enlarge it. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 06:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

That sounds good! I can picture how that would work! Ha ha!! Do you have a "Click to enlarge" under the photo? I hope I can get the photos. I am very happy with how the bio has turned out! It has a nice finish. It was good to see the last citation at the end of the piece. This adds to the flow of words as they cascade down the page!!:)

Since I love visual art and how it connects to writing, I found some cool picture puzzles for the you and the group!!

https://mrscoxclass.info/graphics/graphicsi/visual-pun/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 17:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Haha! We don't normally write something like "click to enlarge", because it instructs the reader in the imperative mood. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 18:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Wow, love the Democratic thinking! I see that as rather informative, but I am learning to roll with Wikipedia mentality! I think most people know do that because I've learned to click on everything. Thanks for the help and feedback! By the way, my father was the King of Puns! I think he learned to play with words when he was writing sports! He also looks a bit like Jonathan Baldwin Turner. Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi HouseBlaster,

There are two items I would like to mention today.

In the Jonathan Baldwin Turner bio, there is a long, run-on sentence at the beginning of Early Life that needs to be redone.

Secondly, I am happy to say that I got the OK to use the Granville plaque. Yay!! I have edited the that photograph and believe my version looks better than the original as far as how the print shows up. However, I have a link to the page which I will share and the OK for use of the photo! I was hoping you could do the copyright page for me. Thank you!!

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgzGxSbrtTwQcHkSMjNSSBBLdFwXrhttps://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=213623:/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 21:13, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a possible citation for the Turner's model of education.

https://www.sdffafoundation.org/History/docs/Turner.pdf Creative Lizzie (talk) 21:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Another citation for the model of education.....

https://publish.illinois.edu/ihlc-blog/2018/09/14/jonathan-baldwin-turner-reformer-and-visionary/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

one more citation for the model of education....https://the-source.net/early-ic-professor-passionate-on-many-fronts/ Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't read the email. Would you be able to forward it to me?

I have redone the run-on sentence.

Finally, I have redone that section using the sources you provided. Best, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 00:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, HouseBlaster!! You are so quick on these edits!! Yes, I will try to forward to you.:) Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

---------- Forwarded message ---------

From: Duane Marsteller <duanemarsteller@gmail.com>

Date: Sun, Apr 7, 2024 at 6:33 PM

Subject: Granville Convention plaque

To: <artloverliz3@gmail.com>

Elizabeth,

You recently contacted J.J. Prats, editor of the Historical Marker Database, about using our photograph of the Granville Convention marker in Granville, Ill. J.J. forwarded your request to me as my wife and I took the photo.

You have our permission to use it on the Wikipedia page for your ancestor Jonathan Baldwin Turner. All we ask is that you credit us and the Historical Marker Database.

If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to contact me at duanemarsteller@gmail.com.

Jonathan Baldwin Turner   Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Would you be able to have them fill out the form at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikimedia_VRT_release_generator? HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 01:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I hope he will do that! I will give it a try! Thank you your help!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 03:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Duane said he would release the photo, but it's taking some time. I might still try to get a high school student in that area to shoot the plaque. It just seems things are struggle. Sometimes I am going to do a piece of art for the Osage orange hedge. It will be similar to the photo but it will not be the photo. It'll probably be done in pencil and watercolor, and not quite as elaborate!! I think it would be nice if the second grade granddaughter had a piece of art up and Wikipedia. It will be lovely. If you don't care for it that's fine I will put it someplace in my home so don't feel any pressure with the art but it will be a good rep.

I found a citation for part of the (citation needed):

https://publish.illinois.edu/ihlc-blog/2018/09/14/jonathan-baldwin-turner-reformer-and-visionary/

https://archive.org/stream/cu31924030583300/cu31924030583300_djvu.txt

In the online line version, it is page 61

In Mary Carriel's book in the life of Jonathan Baldwin, Turner--- it is page 50.

Eventually, every sentence in the bio will be cited!! Wow!!

Best to you, Houseblaster!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

We don't like to use illustrations of things when it is possible to take an actual photo of the event, so unfortunately we cannot use a homemade illustration. I have  added the citation as requested, but we still need a citation for the statement that JBT's religious views were the subject of an investigation by the Illinois Presbyterian Assembly. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 20:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The 2nd citation I sent you contains the info on the religious views with the university! Covered! Thanks for your help with this, HB!!

Got it on the art! I totally understand but I suspect an exception in Wikipedia! I wonder how many botanical pieces are in Wikipedia for plants that exist??? I'm just saying.....! Just so you know, I was paid to teach art! I have an art degree and a credential in art. My work is as good as many artists if not better! What I do is not the typical homemade creation! lol I won an art show! I could easily be successful out in the art world!! No matter, I will love creating this piece for myself, family and ancestry! I am also getting ready to do a blog and book on how to get children started in art for parents and teacher. It will probably be a winner!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

We do occasionally make exceptions to our rules (in fact, our fifth pillar is that we have no firm rules). However, I don't see a compelling reason to make an exception here, because a photograph of the hedge conveys much more information than any illustration. Illustrations invite too much artistic license. Furthermore, if you are basing your illustration off of an image, we would need a copyright release for the original image. And if we can get that copyright release, we might as well use the image itself. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 21:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I love that the fifth pillar is no firm rules, but that's not what it feels like to me! lol I am not done, trying to get a photograph of the hedge or something that looks like the hedge. It just looks like it's gonna be a journey and time-consuming. So I might create a realistic drawing, which is based on five different photos! ha ha! I am an artist and I can do whatever I want and not copy anybody specifically. All artists can do this! There is no likelihood of my work looking like anybody else. I think art is in the proof of the pudding and you will see how I solve this. I possibly might share my work with you. With artistic license being throughout Wikipedia and no easy way to get a hedge photo that looks decent, it should be a possibility. You have a lot of photographs and Wikipedia, so when I look at the different pages, I see art as a relief I suspect there are many people out there like me.:) Whatever the case, I am still hunting for the photograph and will still do the art for me and my related people or anyone who cares about this man! Creative Lizzie (talk) 21:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing quite like a human hand creating!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 21:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I know that it can feel like we have a bunch of firm rules, and in fact I dislike the implication of the pillar that there are zero firm rules. For instance, we would never ever make an exception to allow personal information (such as Social Security numbers) to be hosted on Wikipedia! I would actually say the rules on Wikipedia are sort of like the rules for making art: in general certain colors go with other colors, in general you want to follow the rule of thirds, and so on. However, lots of great art can be made by breaking those rules! You just have to really know what you are doing, and like with creating art it takes years of editing Wikipedia to get a feel for when it is okay to ignore the rules. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 21:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, HB! When I make art, there are really no firm rules. For instance, I am one to mix different mediums. That could be a rule breaker for some. I love to take something that someone is thrown away and make it into art! This is probably in no way how you see art. I dream of an idea then I do it and then I alter the piece as I go. Sometimes I'll put a piece of work up and work on it for a month to bring it to what I want for it. I am an extremely abstract thinker, and creator. I can do anything I set my mind to and can to something more realistic! When you look at a finished piece however, you use art elements and design elements to figure out if the piece is successful! This can even happen accidentally and you can flip the art around to look at it from all directions. It can look better another way than the one you thought was it Yes, I am a global thinker when it comes to certain things. There is no comparison to creation of art for me personally and the strict rules of Wikipedia. The rules are there for a reason, but they can be extremely intimidating and the placing of codes with no explanation or no additional email is tough. Not everyone is going to read and study pages of explanations on how to do something in Wikipedia. As a writer, which is another art, sometimes constant correction can produce nothing. Surely you have heard of writers who sit in front of the computer and just can't get rolling. Ask me a question and I would be happy to answer anything about art! I have many interests but creating art is up at the top! I also have been doing about 15 years of ancestry and am firmly in to art history, world, history, archaeology, and science. There is no end. Creative Lizzie (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)