User talk:CrafterNova/Archive/March 2024

Women in Red March 2024

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--Lajmmoore (talk 20:21, 25 February 2024 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Your edit on Non-binary gender

Hey, thank for your edit on Non-binary gender - I just wanted to let you know that adding suggestive terms such as “may chose to” and old outdated terms for surgery instead of the modern term gender-affirming surgery put a slant on this. While Gender dysphoria is not a disorder, it does cause mental distress in many individuals and the current wording that some people are medically treated is not wrong per-se, as gender-affirming care such as hormone replacement or surgeries still are medical healthcare treatments to help reduce the mental distress caused by gender dysphoria. Which is to say, they don't address gender-dysphoria itself (which is not a medical condition), but the effects caused by it, some of which are medically treated. I've made a follow up change to the article, let me know if that sounds good now with the extra context. Raladic (talk) 15:53, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Raladic: I agree, except it should be made clear that non-binary trans people are also trans people, who may identify as non-binary men or non-binary women (or polygender, pangender, etc.), or may identify as completely non-binary people, can also receive gender-affirming care as a personal choice, just as binary trans men and binary trans women do.

The wording does not have to be exactly as above, so we have to discuss how the sentences should be worded. — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 17:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh yes absolutely, some non-binary people identify under the trans umbrella, whereas some only identify as non-binary, but feel free to add something to that effect back in - do we have WP:RS that backs using gender affirming care as a choice rather than to alleviate distress caused by gender dysphoria though? Raladic (talk) 17:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Raladic: Yes, that's because some non-binary people are cisgender.

Gender-affirming care is always a choice, because some people live their entire lives with gender dysphoria without HRT and gender-affirming surgeries, and instead use natural therapies, alternative therapies, etc.

So I think sources are not required to prove that receiving gender-affirming care is a matter of bodily autonomy.

But if we must, I think reliable sources like PubMed Central, ScienceDirect, and Nature.com, having publications that explicitly state gender-affirming care is a matter of bodily autonomy and personal choice, would help. — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 18:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Raladic: I have not received a reply from you in a while. Can we further discuss how the sentences should be worded? And look for reliable sources that mention the fact that gender-affirming care is a matter of bodily autonomy and personal choices? — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 05:30, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Hey, yes I thought that after your last reply you were going to look for RS that back the wording you’d like to add. If we have that, then I have no objections to adding it to the article. Raladic (talk) 14:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Raladic: I found an original research paper that has one instance of "bodily autonomy" when searched on Google Scholar.

Cosker-Rowland, Rach (2022-11-01). "Integrity and rights to gender-affirming healthcare". Journal of Medical Ethics. 48 (11): 832–837. doi:10.1136/medethics-2021-107325. ISSN 0306-6800. PMID 34330797.

It is not freely available in full text, so it's difficult to verify.

It's very difficult to find reliable sources that explicitly state such things. — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 11:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes that was what I guessed, that there isn’t much, if any, reliable secondary sourcing that talks about it as a choice, but more as medical treatment to reduce distress, which is also largely in line with WPATHs general SOC8 guidelines - that gender affirming treatments, such as hormones and surgeries are there to help people with gender dysphoria to reduce the distress caused by the dysphoria, underneath it being medically necessary (Statement 2.1).

WPATH also uses the term autonomy a few times, but more so in the context of allowing transgender and gender diverse (TGD) individuals to be able to receive gender affirming care if that is what will help them under the informed consent context. Raladic (talk) 17:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Raladic: These statements do not take into account the personal choices and bodily autonomy of detransitioner people and retransitioner people. Whether cis or trans, or even agender, their bodily autonomy directly relates to their health, because if they detransition, then gender-affirming care was not "medically necessary" for them in the first place. If they retransition, then their detransition was not "medically necessary" either.

Informed consent, age, and bodily autonomy are always important, medically or otherwise. — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 09:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Detransition typically happens due to other external factors and pressures such as fear for life - Detransition#Reasons. It doesn’t suddenly negate the prior to that distress someone may have experienced due to gender dysphoria. Similarly, people that retransition typically do once that other external factor has changed.

It doesn’t appear that RS currently exists that backs the notion that gender affirming care is provided out of a choice without the underlying concept of it being used in aid of helping other factors (such as mitigation of distress caused by gender dysphoria). Without the RS, we can’t include this notion in Wikipedia since it would fall afoul of WP:OR. Raladic (talk) 15:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

@Raladic: Completely agreed. A while ago, I thought that "cisgender people often do not experience gender dysphoria" which may be true, but is a limited worldview that I disagree with now.

Anyone can have gender dysphoria when their gonads, genitals, sex characteristics are injured and/or not the way they want to be comfortable with.

In the article Non-binary gender, relevant sections are only "Transfeminine or transmasculine" and "Transgender health care". I think we need separate sections named "Transgender people", "Gender transition", and subsections named "Detransition" and "Retransition" for explaining most of this information with reliable sources.

In the article Transgender, in a separate subsection perhaps in the "Culture" section, transmaxxing should be mentioned as deliberate gender transition, particular from male to female, for the perceived and practically non-existent "social advantages" that come with being female, especially as regards the sexual marketplace.

Transmaxxers' movement is largely based on the misogynistic incel-to-trans pipeline. Transmaxxing is often performed by incels and advocated for by transphobes to disprove the fact that being transgender is not a choice, since many genetic and epigenetic factors are involved in transness. (Diamond 2013)

Transmaxxers' agenda is or will be indisputably a failure because there are none or very few female-to-male transmaxxers, intersex-to-female transmaxxers, intersex-to-male transmaxxers, and birth sex-to-altersex transmaxxers (source for the term "altersex": Intersex, Intergender, and Altersex. - Intersex Transexxuals Exist - Mx. Anunnaki Ray Marquez (2017)). — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 12:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

References

"Homocyclic" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Homocyclic has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 27 § Homocyclic until a consensus is reached. 1234qwer1234qwer4 21:10, 27 March 2024 (UTC)