User talk:Clio the Muse/Archive 5

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Payne

I quickly took the following out of Why humans eat meat?, as I had wandered too far off the point:

I see Payne also wrote a study of Charlie Chaplin. Perhaps this was part of his Hitler expertise? Not long ago, someone told me a lovely story about Chaplin. It seems that one day he was driving through a dusty mid-west town and saw there was a Charlie Chaplin lookalike competition that very day, so he decided to enter it. He came third. Xn4 03:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Ha! Ha! Ha! I hope that is not an urban myth. Clio the Muse 03:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Spoilsport! Xn4 03:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry! Clio the Muse 03:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Forgiven. Xn4 03:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

DYK- Pyotr Voykov

On 7 August, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Pyotr Voykov, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Circeus 03:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Circeus, for letting me know! Clio the Muse 05:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

A barnstar from me

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		Clio, i award you this barnstar for your tireless and excellent efforts in helping answer peoples queries on the humanities reference desk Hadseys 01:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

As always, I appreciate recognition and kindness. Thank you, Hadseys. Clio the Muse 01:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Its cool, you really really deserve it, you're an asset to the community, an invaluable one --Hadseys 15:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

♥ Clio the Muse 22:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, cool Clio

You always come through. XXX Princess of the night 11:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Shucks! Clio the Muse 22:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Fifth Former on the bench

My word, I must be getting old, but that scares me, it's like something out of The Loved One. No matter, if the UK tries the idea in Liverpool it's sure to end in tears, so it'll never arrive here in darkest Borsetshire. Xn4 01:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

All can and will happen in the best of all possible worlds! Clio the Muse 02:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Everything begins and ends at exactly the right time and place. Xn4 02:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Another Daisy

I had just been reading the introduction to Mrs Henry de la Pasture's The Unlucky Family written (the introduction, that is) in 1980 by Auberon and Daisy Waugh, aged twelve. She wrote:

“ Mr and Mrs Chubb have eleven children, the eldest being Dorothea who is fourteen and the youngest Jane and Josephus who are too young to be worth mentioning. I think Mr Chubb is terribly nice although rather pompous perhaps. He is the image of my father. Clumsy Caroline is the least intelligent of the family. She reminds me of a dull, unromantic, boring girl who used to live in our village and whose name will remain unknown. ”

Xn4 01:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That is simply wonderful, even better, if possible, than little Daisy! Clio the Muse 02:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought so. She's turned into a good journalist, agony aunt and food critic. Xn4 02:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

the ever expanding mankster tribe

dear lady, just a quick thanks for your thoughts, perry jr born 26/07/07 - @9:30 p.m. 9lbs 7oz (taught metric, still use imperial, long live the empire!) mother and child fine, father tired but happy, see bielle's page for a clue to his name, love X Perry-mankster 09:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What wonderful news! Clio the Muse 22:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The White Countess

I find it hard to believe that someone as young as you knows so much! I see from your user page that your birthday falls in this month. Please forgive me for being so cheeky, but when, exactly? My own is on the 21st, though a few years in advance of you! Anyway, on the subject of the White Countess, could you recommend any reading? With respect Fred said right 10:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, kind Fred. My birthday is next Wednesday, the 15th, so I suppose I shall have to update my user page at that point! For the Russian community in Shanghai you should, if possible, try to get a hold of the League of Nations reports, though clearly you would have to have access to a good research library. Otherwise I would suggest Port of Last Resort: the Diaspora Community in Shanghai by M. R. Ristaino and Empire Made Me: An Englishman Adrift in Shanghai by R. Bickers. All the best from Clio the Muse 22:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Arsuf

Hi Clio. I have wikified the article and provided some inline sourcing for the quotations. I scavenged the sources from other articles, could you check them over to be sure they are appropriate? If not, could you could change them, or let me know what editions or sources you used? I have also made the DYK nom at Template talk:Did you know#Articles created on August 9. Feel free to comment if you have a better hook or phrasing suggestion. Nice work once again. P.S. Thanks also for the History Today link. My wife and I both had a good laugh watching that, it took us back to our teenage years! Rockpocket 06:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You are a star, Rockpocket. Clio the Muse 14:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The Battle of Arsuf

My dear Miss Clio, I am lost for words. Thank you so much for taking so much trouble over this. What you have written is a huge improvement on what went before. I always thought that military history was the preserve of men. But your response to this, and past issues I have raised, is truly admirable. You will make a mark on the world, of that I am sure. General joffe

Thank you, General joffe, for your generosity. People like you make any voluntary effort worthwhile! Clio the Muse 14:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Clio. I've raised a bunch of problems at the B. of Arsuf talk page. Sorry. --Dweller 12:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I've made one small amendment for clarity, thanks. I did not write the introduction, and the information, all of the information, in the 'battle box' is rubbish, a point I made in response to the original question. I have asked elsewhere for this to be changed because I lack the necessary technical skill to do it myself. You are at perfect liberty to address any rectify any problems using your own knowledge and skills. Clio the Muse 14:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Clio, Rockpocket, General joffe, Dweller, et al: I've made a few edits to the Battle page, although I must admit that military history is not my usual area of expertise :) I'll look around for some references for the numbers of troops. I also changed the footnotes to a different style; the "a, b, c" style seems very imprecise to me. I don't know where Wikipedia got that style from! I don't know if I found a different quote in Richards' translation of Baha ad-Din, but the closest one I could find didn't match the quote given, so I changed it. I also changed the quotes from Stubbs' edition of the Itinerarium to the translation given by Helen Nicholson, since Nicholson's edition is much more recent. Hope that helps! Adam Bishop 20:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Nice work, Adam. Thank you. Rockpocket 20:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Adam. You will remember from the original question that I have some figures on the relative strengths of the armies. I was going to work these in yesterday, but I was slightly thrown by the complexity of the layout, and did not want to make a mess! I will, however, give it another go. Clio the Muse 23:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Done-phew! Clio the Muse 23:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi again

Hi, Clio, I'm the guy that wanted to "achieve expertise in World War II" again ;). Well, now that I have plenty leisure time, I've been able to almost finish the two books of Martin Gilbert in a rush, just 70 pages to go out of over a thousand. I liked them very much, they contain a lot of information :). My estimate is that in two days, with some help of Wikipedia, I'll be able to consider that I've finished studying these two books. The next logical step would be to buy and study both the Operation Barbarossa and the Battle of Stalingrad books. But, what after that? Now I'm seeing this task is indeed enormous, but I'm not intimidated by the amount of work. Approximately, just to have an idea, how many books will I have to study to have a level of knowledge comparable to that of an "expert" in this area? Moreover, do you know any ways of testing my knowledge? I just found some World War II quizzes in the Internet. Thank you for your advice, it's priceless ;) --Taraborn 22:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

And a big hi to you, Taraborn. I'm glad that your reading is going so well. Quite frankly, you could spend a good bit of your lifetime going through all of the available literature on the Second World War; even a good bit in simply focusing on a particular aspect of the struggle. What might be best for you is to concentrate on one facet, depending where your interests lie. If you do move on to Barbarossa and Stalingrad then you may find that operations on the Eastern Front is the field that interests you most. At the moment part of my leisure reading (I tend to juggle with books, moving from one to the other as the mood takes me!) is being taken up by Giles MacDonagh's After the Reich: From the Liberation of Vienna to the Berlin Airlift, a book I cannot recommend too highly. Expertise? Well, that is something that comes partly with time and partly with intensity of study; it's really as simple and as demanding as that. My own particular expertise lies in the reign of Charles II, and I think I have consulted just about every significant book and paper on the subject over the past three or four years. But to be quite honest with you it is not always a case of reading any given text from cover to cover; to be even more honest, I would say that few research students have the time for this. What tends to happen, rather, is that a book is read thematically; that an argument is detected, traced and extracted. I speed read, yes, but I also use indexes with utter ruthlessness, degutting along the way! Expertise is also acquired by reading original, unpublished documents, letters, diaries and the like, some of these never before consulted. Believe me, this can be quite agonising, especially trying to decipher seventeenth century handwriting!

There are some good online quizzes, I think. Try them and see how you get on. Anyway, if you want advice on any more reading-or if you just want to test your knowledge-you always know where to come! Regards Clio the Muse 23:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I've just finished Second World War :D. This Monday I'm rushing to the bookstore to get my next two books. --Taraborn 18:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent! Clio the Muse 21:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Shaftesbury

I am conscious, Xn4, that I am in danger of turning this discussion into a dissertation in its own right; so stop I must, and stop I will. Let me just say that you can be William Jennings Bryant to my Clarence Darrow anytime you wish! Clio the Muse 00:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, my word, I'm afraid your Bryant will make a poor Presbyterian, prohibitionist, and populist! I like your defence of Shaftesbury, Clio, and to speak for the man at bay is always more human and more English than to excoriate him. After living with this fellow for so many years, you may feel for him something of what Antonia Fraser feels for Cromwell. If so, you may one day become not my Clarence Darrow but my bedside reading? Xn4 01:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It's possible, Xn4; yes, it is possible! As far as religious convictions are concerned I can give you one of my favourite Shaftesbury quotes. When being pushed on the matter by an unnamed female he responded, "Madam, men of sense are really but of one religion." "What religion is that, my Lord?" "Why, madam, men of sense never tell it." Clio the Muse 02:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ha! Thanks for that, Clio. I see it's his only entry in my Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, it does leave me wanting more. And far be it from me to suggest that your chief of men may have had it in mind that "Tash is Aslan, Aslan is Tash". Xn4 02:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well roared, lion! Clio the Muse 02:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Shaftesbury and the Popish Plot

Thanks a million times for your response to my question and your brilliant debate with Xn4. He who must be obeyed 11:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It was good fun! Clio the Muse 22:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Stalin's Foreign Policy

A superb answer; my thanks. S. J. Blair 18:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You are most welcome. Clio the Muse 22:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

birthday wishes

dear lady thank you for your felicitations and i wish to pass on mine, all be it a tad early, as t'mill owner is closing down our network for a few days whilst they update the telephony system - even thou there's nowt wrong with the present one, someone is getting a kick-back, grumble grumble, moan moan - enough 'Aye is the Daddy!'. Bear with me here, bit surreal, lack of sleep - So Happy Birthday, what to get the lady who has it all? Well i am an old romantic at heart, old fashioned, what, what. So some flowers [1] and some chocolates [2]you have a great birthday all my love Perry-mankster 11:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC) P.S. noticed that you share your birthday with Attila, mmmm... not that i am drawing any comparisons with the way you cut your way through the dithering to strike with a well honed answer, no not me, no siree bob (dave) (i share mine with Galius Caligula lock up your daughters horses!)

ah dear lady, sshall i pick you the ushual time, shay around 8 issshh? I have shomthing for your birthday, a little shomething from tiffanysh i picked up during my last jaunt acrossh the pond, till then X

When i was One,

I had just begun.

When i was Two,

I was nearly new.

When i was Three,

I was hardly me.

When i was Four,

I was not much more.

When I was Five,

I was just alive.

But now i am Six, i'm as clever as clever,

So i think i'll be Six now for ever and ever. XXX

I

Oh, thank you, dear sir, for the flowers and chocies; but next time you must bring some of these! My people are planning a surprise combined graduation and birthday bash. Surprise, she says; but nothing escapes me for very long! Still, I have entered into the spirit of the thing; all sweet, innocent and clueless! One thing I am finding very difficult to keep quite about: they have bought me a nice little sports car (yippeeeee...!!!!). I hope you are all well, especially your lovely son. Bye, bye, from her and from me. Clio the Muse 22:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

A happy birthday from me, too, and joy of your chariot! At this bash, we hope you will be stirred and not shaken. Xn4 08:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

And I thank you too, dear Xn4! It's tommorrow, Wednesday the 15th, and I do confess I'm starting to get just a little bit hyper. Being in the family home just at present is like living with a set of conspirators: sudden hushes every time I enter a room! Clio the Muse 22:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Yo

You OK? --Dweller 11:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thanks....why? Clio the Muse 22:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Arsuf

On 13 August, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Battle of Arsuf, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--howcheng {chat} 17:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

That's wonderful, Howcheng; my thanks! Clio the Muse 22:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Snails and things!

I knew you were a youngster, but 24! A mere slip of a thing. Have a light oyster lunch, and of course, some champagne, on me. Rockpocket 06:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Happy Birthday, Clio! Sluzzelin talk 07:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Clio, you are positively naughty! It is your birthday and you need your rest. However, I'm worried about this grit, so I propose that you shall eat no snails from someone's garden in future. There is no grit in pâté de foie gras d'oie, saumon fumé, or crème caramel. Enjoy. Xn4 23:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It is now! I go to bed soon, but I have one or two matters to clear up first. They were good Burgundian snails, Xn4, of that you can be sure! Anyway, you make my mouth water, you really do; so I'm off for a snack before I do any more. Regards Clio the Muse 23:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Champagne and ice-cream! You really know how to spoil a girl, guys! Clio the Muse 22:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Birthday? What birthday?

Since everyone else seems to have access to your personnel files, I guess I'm not part of the cabal. While Shaftesbury, of course, was. So, what would be appropriate as a birthday gift to you? How about an offer to organise a collaborative effort to get your choice of a biography of a historical figure to GA status. Enjoy choosing your hero or villain! --Dweller 15:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats a great idea - and should be come a WP:RDAC tradition. Rockpocket 17:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

No cabal, dear Dweller; all the information is freely available on my user page. Thank you for your kind offer. I think I would find it difficult to select a particular hero(ine), though I would if I was really pushed, I suppose. Villains? Well, I suppose this might be Richard Rich, or Titus Oates, or maybe just him! Clio the Muse 22:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Anastasia Clio. I just thought I'd add my good wishes on this your birthday (which I see you share with Napoleon!). I hope you have a great time and thanks for all your past help on the reference desk. Cheers. SeanScotland 18:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind wishes, Sean. I did have a great time; a really great time (hic!). Clio the Muse 22:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh cmon, just choose! lol. Meanwhile, I posted some pictures of famous people with interesting hair in the Edward II thread, above. --Dweller 07:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I adore Mr. Stay-Puft; he was one of my childhood heroes. Get him up to GA status and you will have my eternal love-I promise! Thanks for flagging up Medusa; I would have missed her otherwise. She looks a bit like a friend of mine; and that is as far as I am prepared to go! Clio the Muse 07:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well then. Our mission, should we choose to accept it, is to get Stay Puft Marshmallow Man to WP:GA. I'll post a call to arms at WP:RDAC and start collecting sources in its talk page (this message will self destruct in 5 seconds). Rockpocket 22:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC) Oops. I missed the section below. Rockpocket 22:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ha! Ha! Ha! Thanks, Rockie Clio the Muse 22:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

And not only Napoleon, but St Anthony of Padua, Sir Walter Scott, Thomas de Quincy, Keir Hardie, Ethel Barrymore, Wendy Hiller and Robert Bolt (he wrote "A Man For All Seasons", and she played Thomas More's wife in the 1966 movie), Oscar Peterson, Alain Juppé, and Princess Anne et al. Belated natal felicitations to you and all your famous friends, Clio. -- JackofOz 06:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Jack. It's nice to have you back! Clio the Muse 03:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Stalin, Thurso, Dali

He looks like the kind of dastardly top-hatted villain that would tie poor innocent girls to railway tracks! On the rise and fall of facial hair you might be interested in what I wrote on this subject back in April... a mischevious title given by Salvador Dali ... Clio the Muse 02:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Clio. Dali is good. J. I. M. Stewart says: "The mad often notice significant things that the sane ignore."

If there were any innocent girls to tie to railway tracks nowadays, I'm sure Lord Thurso would think better of it.

I hope the car turned out as hoped! greetings, Xn4 03:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure he would. How could there be any such colourful characters in poor old Menzies Campbell's Liberal party!?

The car is a dream, thanks-a little Mazda MX-5! Not for innocent girls, though! Clio the Muse 04:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

MX-5 Woof! (has to be red!)Perry-mankster 08:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Perry, how did you guess!? No, seriously now; that would be far too dangerous, even for me. It's a lovely sliver metallic. Clio the Muse 22:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, Clio, the beautiful machine! You will throw off the shackles of earth. But please be careful when passing Boris Johnson on his bicycle ("swifter than eagles, a two-wheeled Desert Orchid"), or you could have one of those Naseby moments. Xn4 13:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Boris does not live too far from my parents' house in London, so he is in distinct danger of coming across the Cliomobile, Xn4! Still, I like him, and will do my best to ensure that the dear man stays safely on his bike. I went driving through the countryside this afternoon. My machine is indeed beautiful: she glides and purrs like a cat-miaowooo! Clio the Muse 22:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, then you should try the dear man's book Life in the Fast Lane: The Johnson Guide to Cars. Keep unwanted wild animals out of the Cliomobile, so that you never have to say (like Jack Lemmon in The Great Race) "My apologies. There's a polar bear in our car." Xn4 05:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a great Boris link, Xn4. He's a speed freak; how wonderful. I really, really hope he replaces the charmless King Newt! The only 'animal' that has been in the Cliomobile so far is my boyfriend. No, he's very nice, poor darling. I can still hear those boyish cries in my ear: "For the love of God, please, Anastasia, slow down!" Clio the Muse 22:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. He is commendably formal. And to be fair to the man in the hot seat, we all need to hold on tight when being driven at the speed of greased lightning by quicksilver nymphs in a new MX-5. Xn4 22:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No, no; not really that formal. But there are some things, after all, that a girl has to keep secret! Clio the Muse 23:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Oscar was wrong, then, when he said "A woman who will tell you her age will tell you anything"! Xn4 00:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Ask me again in ten years time. At the moment I am young enough to be considered calculating! Clio the Muse 00:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm very good at integral and differential calculus;

I know the scientific names of beings animalculous:

In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,

I am the very model of a modern Major-General. Xn4 01:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Beautifully sung! Clio the Muse 01:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

(he bows). Xn4 02:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

She claps, and says goodnight! Clio the Muse 03:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Your birthday present - Stay Puft Marshmallow Man going to GA (hopefully)

It's up and running. Anyone wishing to contribute to Clio's birthday present is more than welcome. --Dweller 08:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Pah, late to the party again. HPBD2U! The Rambling Man 10:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not beleeeeve it!!! Thanks so much, Dweller. I'm touched; really I am. LOL. And thank you for your good wishes, Rambling Man, late or not. Clio the Muse 22:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Double uberplus welcome! The Rambling Man 22:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Clio...

...for your scholarship, generosity, and wit.(This was prompted by your writings in response to my questions about Attila and Nero. Though I still think that Aetius was a four-flusher.)

May I specifically commend your prose? Clear,direct,lucid; personal while remaining objective. I wish I were a publisher-- I would cross your palm with gold just to get you to write for me!

Please carry on delighting your many admirers on Wikipedia, among the least of whom you shall find,

Yr most Humble, &caetera,

Rhinoracer 18:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks awfully for your kind and generous words, Rhinoracer. Clio the Muse 22:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Send three and fourpence...

I can't resist passing on something I just found...

Your "He is merely a feather on the breath of time" reminded me of something of Diana Mosley's: "He used to say: 'I tread again the dust of the Palais Royal, soft as the feathers on the wings of sleep'." So I googled "feathers on the wings of sleep" and found its only appearance is here on oswaldmosley.com, which has "I tread again the dust of the Palais Royal, soil as the leathers on the wings of sleep"! Xn4 23:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Xn4. Only truly great minds have poetic imagination! Clio the Muse 00:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, the bold, brilliant but cracked Mosley had a lot of poetry in him. He was a veritable Rumpole. Xn4 00:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Rumpole, dear Rumpole; another ideal! So says She who Must be Obeyed. Clio the Muse 01:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

She Who Must be Obeyed has this to say: "She is a breathtakingly beautiful creature who will not hesitate to kill any one who displeases her or stands in her way". So now we know. Xn4 01:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

My kingdom is of the imagination. Clio the Muse 02:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This also reminded me of "A Feather on the Breath of God" and Hildegard of Bingen. God speed, Hildegard the Muse.  :) -- JackofOz 06:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

And all my sisters! Clio the Muse 03:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oops. No comparison to Jade or Kimura was intended! Night flying on an empty stomach, no sense at all. Xn4 17:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Heh...I quite liked the idea of being Ayesha! Clio the Muse 22:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Perchance to sleep?

I always find your pages very interesting and I've noticed something about the time codes on your postings that puzzles me. They seem to indicate that you never sleep and can produce several ten-thousand-word answers in the space of an hour! I wish this site had existed when I was mired in History 100 at UWA. You could have saved my disconsolate donkey.User:Retarius | Talk 02:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

...aye there's the rub! Hi, Retarius. My goodness, I've always been something of a night owl, working on my computer when all around me sleep. I enjoy the peace, and it helps me to focus; hence the lengthy answers. I also think quickly, and write even more quickly! The whole thing serves to sharpen my intellect still further. If I can ever be of any future help just drop on by. Best wishes. Clio the Muse 02:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Russia in 1812

I just wanted to tell you now blown over I was by your lengthy and detailed answer to my question on the Russian response to the French invasion of 1812. I see from your user page that you are a Cambridge graduate. I feel sure that you must be among the very best. My best wishes to you, Clio the Muse. P. Bezukhov

Spasiba, Pierre! Clio the Muse 22:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Julius Excluded from Heaven

Hi Clio, since you're the history person, I'd like to ask you to take a look at this article I started regarding Erasmus' dialogue with Julius II trying to enter heaven. I'm aiming for a DYK and hope you can gain one too. bibliomaniac15 Prepare to be deleted! 01:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Bibliomaniac. I'm not quite sure how you would like me to tackle this; if you would like it expanded; an exegesis, or merely some comments on the historical background. Anyway, here is some material I've cobbled together for you. You are welcome to take as much, or as little, as you wish.

BACKGROUND

For Erasmus Julius II, the great warrior pope, represented all that was wrong with the Papacy. More of a politician than a pontiff, Julius was worldly, unscrupulous and ambitious. Determined to expand the power of the Papal States, he himself led armies into battle, dressed in full armour. In order to finance both his wars and his programme of construction, which included the rebuilding of St. Peter's, he made increasing use of indulgences, papal certificates supposedly guaranteeing the purchaser remission from Purgatory. When Martin Luther visited Rome in 1508 he was deeply shocked by the vice and corruption that he witnessed. Leopold von Ranke, the nineteenth century German historian, was to write of Julius that "Even depravity may have its perfection." (The History of the Popes, London 1847 i, p. 38).

Erasmus spent the years from 1506 to 1509 in Italy, and was able to observe Julius' actions at close had, witnessing his subjugation of Perugia and Bologna. For the Dutch humanist, the Pope's militarism was in clear conflict with his holy office. Just after the attack on Bologna he wrote to an acquaintance, comparing Julius II to Julius Caesar, because "...both plunged the whole world into war." (R. P. Adams, The Better Part of Valour: More, Erasmus, Colet and Vives, on Humanism, War and Peace, Seattle, 1962, p. 72) This comparison between the Pope and Caesar is one of the themes in Julius Excluded From Heaven, where St. Peter says to the Pontiff, "I suspect you to be that most pestilent pagan of all, Julius the Roman, returned from hell to make mock of our system." (p.3)

Bombastic, aggressive and proud, Julius, as far as Erasmus was concerned, was no fit representative of the true doctrine of Christ. Like Luther, he too was shocked by the degeneracy he witnessed in Rome, as he makes clear in In Praise of Folly, his most famous work. This was published during Julius' lifetime, and no direct reference is made to the Pope by name, unlike the later satire; but the picture of sin and corruption in the seat of Papal power is clear enough, "What disasters would befall if ever the supreme pontiffs, the Vicars of Christ, should make an attempt to imitate his life of poverty and toil?" The answer was that "thousands of scribes, sycophants...muleteers...and pimps would become unemployed." (In Praise of Folly, trans. and ed. B. Radice, Toronto, 1974, xxvii, p. 2)

JULIUS AT THE GATES OF HEAVEN

Although Julius Excluded from Heaven appeared well after the pope's death in early 1513 Erasmus was never to claim authorship, for good and practical reasons. He faced the possibility of some form of retribution, and his work was already considered sufficiently unorthodox to attract the attention of the Inqusition. But those who were familiar with the satirical style of In Praise of Folly had no doubts over the authorship. Luther was to find the little tract "so learned, and so ingenious, that is, so entirely Erastain, that it makes the reader laugh at the vices of the church, over which every true Christian ought rather to groan." (Theosophy San Diego, online paper, p. 6).

Julius, accompanied by Genius (his guardian angel), turns up drunk at the gates of heaven with his army, demanding entry. When St. Peter questions him as to his worthiness, Julius catalogues all of his earthly achievments and glory, in contrast to accepted Christian notions of true worth. In his worldy arrogance Julius says to Peter "If only I were allowed to go on living, I wouldn't envy you your holiness or your bliss, either one." (p.3) When Peter refuses admission, Julius threatens him first with his army of cut-throats, all present because they have been granted indulgences, and then with a papal bull, excommunicating the gatekeeper of heaven. As far as he is concerned all the many sins of which he stands accused, from simony to pederasty, are of no weight, because being pope excuses any and every offence. But none of this impresses Peter;

Oh, madman! So far I have heard nothing but the words of a warlord, not a churchman but a worldling, not a mere worldling but a scoundrel lower than any pagan! You boast of having dissolved treaties, stirred up wars, and encouraged the slaughter of men. That is the power of Satan, not a pope. (p. 21)

Oh, enough of your triumphs, you braggart soldier! You surpass in hatefulness even those pagans-you who, while claiming to be the most holy father in Christ, have caused thousands of Christian soldiers to be killed for your own personal advantage, who have created only new legions of the dead, and never by word or deed brought a single soul to Christ! By the bowels of the Father! Oh you worthy vicar of that Christ who sacrificed himself for the good of all mankind! You, to preserve your own accursed skin, have driven to their deaths entire populations! (p.23)

What made you pope was money in the first place, then flattery, and finally fraud-if in fact you should bear the title of pope at all. I gained thousands of souls for Christ; you drew just as many to death and hell. I first taught pagan Rome the lesson of Christ; you made yourself the master of a kind of pseudo-Christian paganism. ((p.24)

Thwarted Julius retires, threatening to return with with an even larger force and lay siege to heaven, "...and if you do not surrender, drive you out." (p.26) On the Pope's departure Peter has a brief conversation with Genius, asking if he is responsible for Julius' atrocious crimes. Genius says that he played little part, because his charge was 'eager in his vices.' Thereupon Peter makes his final statement before Genius leaves,

Well, I'm not surprised that we get so few candidates for admission, when monsters like this are in charge of governing the church. But perhaps the common people may be curable-or so I conjecture from the fact that because of the mere empty title of pope, they give honour to such a filty piece of garbage as this. (p.27)

So you see, Bibliomanic, why, on the threshold of the Reformation, Erasmus decided that discretion was indeed the better part of valour! Clio the Muse 00:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks Clio! bibliomaniac15 Prepare to be deleted! 01:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

To Play the King

Hey Clio. I was re-watching the House of Cards trilogy this week. Are you familiar with it? Its great television for anyone with an interest in Conservative politics after Her. Anyway, I was musing over which real-life person some of the minor characters were based on and it occurred to me that Sarah Harding, Urquhart's political muse in To Play the King, is Clio personified (in my little mind, of course). Am I close? I await a response of 'You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment"!

P.S. I'm just about to archive this page again. Rockpocket 06:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Sarah Harding Shown on the cover of See the Day with Girls Aloud

Sarah Harding! I guess you must belong to a generation that missed the importunities of Girls Aloud-lucky you, Rockpocket! I'm not familiar with House of Cards. It looks very interesting, though, so I shall send for a DVD. Thanks for drawing my attention to it. If the other Sarah Harding is anything like Clio she will have to be kind, loving and considerate to all. Innocent in every degree!

Thanks for the archiving, guardian and mentor! Clio the Muse 01:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, showing my age a bit there. I would suggest the the fictional Harding doesn't have too much in with the pop singer. I think you would get a kick out of House of Cards. Rockpocket 22:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've ordered the DVD from Amazon, and I should have it by Tuesday, God and, more important, the Post Office willing. I'll let you know how it plays! Clio the Muse 22:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, Clio, if you have a soft spot for Shaftesbury, Urquart's your man. Please start watching it early, or we shan't see you here that night! Xn4 02:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Now I am really intrigued! Clio the Muse 22:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The DVD arrived this morning, and I spent a good bit of the afternoon watching the first part. It's fascinating stuff, it really is, and Francis Urquhart is a dream! My mother saw the drama when it was shown on TV, and says that if Urquhart had taken over from Mrs. Thatcher Blair would have gone the same way as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock. I especially love the little asides to the audience, which seems to make one party to the whole 'conspiracy', whether one chooses to be or not! A million, zillion thanks for alerting me to this, Rockpocket. Now I understand the 'I could not possibly comment' reference. Clio the Muse 22:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Glad to hear it, Clio. For me, of course, Urquhart represents all that was wrong with Britain, yet one can't help but find him - and his steadfast belief in himself - utterly compelling. And Ian Richardson's performance is just wonderful. Those eyes' terrify me! Rockpocket 02:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Belief in oneself is the very thing that moves worlds! Clio the Muse 03:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Magna Carta / Ordinances / Jews

Ooh, what a pickle I'm in. I was sure it was MC that had loads of clauses about Jews, but it doesn't. So I thought maybe it was the Ordinances, but of course (duh) Eddy I had already expelled the Jews long before the Ordinances were drafted. Now I wonder if it's one of the rehashes of MC, maybe from early in Henry III's reign... or did I just make it all up? Also, wasn't there some Baronial document thingummyjig foisted on Eddy I at a (rare!) moment of weakness... no reference to it in his article. --Dweller 12:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Dweller, the subsequent revisions, including that of 1225 make no mention at all of the Jews. There was baronial discontent during the reign of Edward I-not shown at all in the Wikipedia page-obliging him to issue in 1297 his Confirmation of the Charters, taking Magna Carta together with the later charter on the Forest Laws; but again there is no mention of the Jews. I wonder if you are thinking of the anti-Jewish decrees published in Rome by Innocent III, obliging people to wear yellow badges, special hats and so on? These were certainly enforced in England, and there was a lot of popular hostility, though specific actions, like the 1190 massacre at York, were mostly unofficial in nature. During the reign of Henry III they were actually offered offical protection by the king, and local authorities were instructed not to molest them. Edward I's actions were prompted by greed, more than anything else. I know this is probably not that much help. Sorry! Clio the Muse 01:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's my dodgy memory striking again. I seem to remember wading through a document from one of my medieval English courses and being struck by something... you're persuasive it's not some other document, so it's MC alright. Perhaps I counted more uses of the word "Jew" than some accumulation of words normally associated with MC, like "freedom", "justice" etc... but I do have this irritating memory that I was counting clauses. Oh well, no matter. Anyway, I've been very busy helping The Rambling Man prepare his Bobby Robson article for WP:PR and WP:FAC, but now I can concentrate on the Stay Puft dude (as well as the interminable amount of work I've been doing on Don Bradman's push to FA). --Dweller 09:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Cool! Clio the Muse 22:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Muslims of Spain

Sorry to keep you up so late (early)! I learnt lots from your answer to Philip the Arab. I guess it's a blind spot for most of us. Xn4 11:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do not apologise; it's entirely my own fault. It's a good question, and I did think of getting to grips with it as soon as I got home last night, but decided to tackle the Iran question first, which drained me somewhat. I did think of delaying my response on the Spanish Muslims; but, alas, vanity of vanities, all is vanity! Clio the Muse 22:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

UK Portal

Hi! An article you worked on (Orator Hunt) was recently nominated for the Did you know? section of the main page. I don't know if it made it to the front page, but I did pinch it for the September update of the United Kingdom portal, and thought you might like to know. Thanks for your contribution! the wub "?!" 20:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

And the same again for Falklands Crisis (1770), hadn't noticed that was by you as well. :-) the wub "?!" 20:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

And thank you for this information! Clio the Muse 22:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Famous Across the Pond

I hope this amuses you: I was out for dinner the other evening with an old friend who is a history buff. We were discussing an article we had both read in "Utne Reader" on the "history we are not taught". The magazine is American so the points were about the American school system, but we were unpleasantly surprised at how many holes Canada had in common. I had remembered something incompletely and wondered aloud about its importance. My friend said, "I'll bet Clio would know." I was a little startled as I had no idea this friend used the Ref Desk often enough to know your name. (We still have not shared our on-line identities, though she will now be able to figure out mine.) What was even more surprising was the voice from the next table where two men were dining that said, "Isn't she amazing!". We must have looked as taken aback as we felt for he added, "You did mean Clio the Muse, didn't you, the one who knows everything about every country in every time line?" So, all you have to do is connect "Clio the Muse" to the name you use on your book, and you will have at least four copies pre-sold on this side of the Atlantic. As the gentlemen were celebrating their fifth anniversary, we toasted them, and you. Bielle 23:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Amused, Bielle; I am completely bowled over!!! I swell with contentment and pride, only to be brought back to earth by Marcus Aurelius, who wrote All is ephemeral-fame and the famous as well. But thank you so much for the passing pleasure. All honour is due, though, to the great Muse herself; for I am only her acolyte and her shadow. Clio the Muse 23:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations are also due to Bielle for obviously "moving in the right circles". I long for the day when I'm dining at a restaurant and I have a chance encounter with someone, anyone, who's ever even heard of Wikipedia, let alone Clio.

Actually, that's not quite true anymore. The papers here have recently had front-page stories about members of the Prime Minister's personal staff and employees within the PM's Department who've been caught out updating our articles on Howard and the government, to put them in a better light, during their working hours (I'm sure it's pure coincidence, but there happens to be an election coming up in a couple of months). So Wikipedia has had an unexpected boost to its profile here. Before long, I'm sure Clio's name will be on every Australian's lips. -- JackofOz 00:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I have another friend, a professor of chemical engineering, who claims that every time he looks for something on Wikipedia, the answer in the article is either incomplete or wrong. I have suggested, as he says he won't write unless he's paid to do it, that he leave a note of the problem on the article's discussion page. He counters that he likes the articles the way they are; it is one way of checking if his students have done their own work. Chaqu'un a son gout! Bielle 01:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Clio is also not backward in coming forward to criticise some of our articles. But thankfully she's taken the constructive approach and improves them rather than just passing judgment on them. Those academics et al who find gaps or errors in our articles, and dismiss Wikipedia out of hand, just don't understand how Wikipedia works, and fail to appreciate that it will always be a work-in-progress. But that is just as true for any hard-copy encyclopedia such as EB; it's just not as obvious there because changes only occur on an edition-by-edition basis (which might be 5 years apart, or longer), whereas we change articles minute-by-minute. -- JackofOz 01:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

All is for the best, in the best of all possible worlds! The practice of 'Wiki tampering' is clearly spreading, Jack. Have a look at this from the Scottish Sunday press [3]. Amongst other things, a Scottish parliament computer was used to change Phil Gallie's date of birth to 1839! How's that for petty politics! Clio the Muse 22:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Muslim questions

As-Salamu Alaykum! I think your answers on the Lebanon Shia, Iran and the Muslims of Spain are very good indeed, full of wisdom and understanding. I would give you an award like the others you have, but I do not knoe how. You have, in any case, my deep admiration.Philip the Arab 00:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Wa `alaykum as-salām. Clio the Muse 22:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On August 27, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Falklands Crisis (1770), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Well done again Clio. Kindly nominated by Ghirla. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Your presence here, Blnguyen, is always welcome! Clio the Muse 22:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Clio

I added an image of you to your user page, one I thought you might like. I hope you don't mind-I thought you deserved it. All the best. Fred said right 09:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Clio, I know this is a terrible cheek, but could we possibly meet up, to discuss historical subjects, of course! I know from your talk page that your family live in London. My home is in Kent, so not too far away. It took a lot to build up to this request-and I feel really awkward-but what the hell, you can only say no. I hope you won't think badly of me for being so bold. Fred said right 09:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I've now added an email address to my account so you can respond in private. Fred said right 10:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The Grand Old Duke of York, Prince-Bishop of Osnabrück, was another Fred. They are bold fellows. I like the picture - a good damned thick square book! Xn4 21:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I like that book too; it's almost as thick as my copy of Norman Davies' Europe: A History! What a wonderful image of Clio, Fred; I simply adore Vermeer. Thank you so much for 'lightening' the text, so to speak. Thank you also for your very kind invitation. Of course I do not think badly of you. But, alas, I must decline. The problem is, you see, that I have a very possessive boyfriend, just a tad on the jealous side, the dear thing! But I am happy to continue to discuss historical matters with you, either here or by email; and if you check your inbox you will see that I have replied to your gracious and charming note. All the very best. Clio the Muse 22:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Clio, I think I love you! Fred said right 11:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you may love the idea of me. Don't worry; you'll get over it! Clio the Muse 22:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

when heraclites and socrates were mused plato and totle were not a mused yet as logos dwells inbetwixt a mused why not you too clio, loosen up and be a mused, musings p.s. is it possible to contact sam clark?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.18.237.2 (talk) 14:16, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Amusingly mysterious! Sam? I wish it was. You have obviously been around for a while, 125.18, if you remember him. Clio the Muse 22:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Humanities Help

"On the question of fashions, Beekone, I can only make an educated guess here, but my hunch is that Czechs, among the most advanced of the people of the old Austrian Empire, would dress little differently in Prague, as they would in Vienna. If you wish I could point you in the direction of some good reading on Czech history in general, and the history of Prague in particular. No prêt-à-porter, though!"

Yes, please!!! Beekone 14:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, Beekone, I would suggest that you begin with The Coasts of Bohemia: A Czech History by Derek Sayer, and Prague in Black and Gold: the History of a City by Peter Demetz. And for a magical insight into the life of the people of the nineteenth century city, and the emergence of a purely Czech consciousness, you could do no better than have a look at Jan Neruda's wonderful Prague Tales, on the assumption that you have not already done so? I could go deeper, over the foothills and into the mountains; so let me know when, and if, you are ready to proceed into a more rarified academic air. Clio the Muse 22:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Muchos gracias, Clio! I'm still forging through "the Crusades; a History" 2nd edition, but as soon as I'm done or nearing done, I'm going to get all of these books. If you have more please indulge me, I can use every resource I can get! Beekone 14:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Here you go, Beekone. Well, you did ask!

Bradley, John F. N. Czechoslovakia: A Short History. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1971. 212p.

Hermann, A. H. A History of the Czechs. London: A. Lane, 1975. 324p.

Kavka, Frantisek. An Outline of Czechoslovak History. Translated by Jarmila and Ian Milner. Prague: Orbis, 1960. 179p.

Krofta, Kamil. A Short History of Czechoslovakia. New York: R. M. McBride & Co., 1934. 198p.

Lutzow, Francis, Count. Bohemia: An Historical Sketch. London: Chapman and Hall, 1896. 438p.

Lutzow, [Francis] Count. The Story of Prague. London: J. M. Dent, 1902. 211p.

Maurice, Charles E. Bohemia from the Earliest Times to the Foundation of the Czecho-Slovak Republic in 1918. London: T. F. Unwin [1922] 576p.

Polisensky, Josef V. History of Czechoslovakia in Outline. Prague: Sphinx Publishers [1948] 142p.

Seton-Watson, Robert W. A History of the Czechs and Slovaks. London, New York: Hutchinson, 1943. 413p.

Thomson, S. Harrison. Czechoslovakia in European History. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1943. 390p.

Vickers, Robert H. History of Bohemia. Chicago: C. H. Sergel, 1894. 763p.

And these are only the general works! Clio the Muse 22:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, I know you're "already taken" and you obviously are not short on back up proposals, but if that and all of them fall through, I would totally marry you as well. Plus, I'd make you ten times happier than these schmucks. Just think about it, okay?

Thanks again, Clio, you're a very good muse indeed. Beekone 14:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, OK; I'll think about it; that much I can promise! Clio the Muse 22:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Award for Clio the Muse

		The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
		Thank you for your help with Muslim history. You are very wise. Philip the Arab 16:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Philip. This has now been added to the others. Clio the Muse 22:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"...and within the limits of my intellectual competence"

Quote your userpage, and we think, what limits :-) martianlostinspace ^{email me} 20:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

As always, martian, I appreciate your kindness. Here you are not lost at all. Clio the Muse 22:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

hi

Just to say hi - hope all's well - haven't seen as much of you on the Desks recently. Adambrowne666 22:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

And hi to you, Adam. Scan down the Humanities Desk, where Clio appears in abundence. The other places she dies not go! Clio the Muse 22:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

ah, yes, so i see - sorry - glad to see it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adambrowne666 (talk • contribs) 03:26, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

hi from me as well, Clio!

The martian can't stay away from this page, sure he can't. If you would be willing, I would invite your opinion on the instruction at the top of my userpage - information which I personally would have liked to know when I first joined here, and literally did not know how to leave a message! (Please excuse me from having initially sourced the code (for the box) and idea from you, though!) Particularly that the link to "your page" goes here.martianlostinspace ^{email me} 23:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You are always welcome! I've now had a look at your user page and it looks good to me. But to be honest with you I am pretty clueless when it comes to these 'technical' matters. It was Rockpocket who organised this page, with the message link and archive. Clio the Muse 23:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Nothing technical of the sort, Clio, you have answered my question well. Just to know that it works, and makes sense to people other than he who put it there.martianlostinspace ^{email me} 12:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad. Clio the Muse 22:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Marry me.

Please... please tell me someone else didn't get lucky and caught you.--Funnyguy555 01:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Funnyguy; Clio is spoken for. But thank you for the offer! Clio the Muse 01:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

At least the second proposal to you here, there was another a number of months back (except in the reference desk!) when you were a topic yourself that day :-)martianlostinspace ^{email me} 12:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I remember that. It was fun! Clio the Muse 22:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

"Mum" Wilkes

Hi As you were at Wycombe Abbey, you may be interested in the career of another senior Kathy Wilkes. If you read about her you may have a better understanding of her grandmother whom you identified as Orwell's teacher in a reply last April. 'Such such were the joys' was so libellous, and hence inaccurate, that it could not be published while Mrs Wilkes was alive. Orwell repeatedly made cynical, unfair and totally inaccurate assumptions about Mr and Mrs Wilkes. To take a simple example just from the passage you quoted, the Gaelic name for the youngest child was the nickname for Mr Wilkes' beloved Welsh mother who died when he was only fifteen leaving him heartbroken - nothing to do with Scottish snobbishness. Orwell was a professional story-teller working on 1984 when he wrote the piece, he owed a great deal to the Wilkes, and his views were not shared by hundreds of other boys at the school. It is probably far-fetched to attribute his anti-Scottishness to St Cyprians. Motmit 22:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that useful information, Motmit. Such, Such Were the Joys was, of course, Orwell's perception of his time at St. Cyprian's. He was clearly very unhappy, which is likely to have coloured his general attitude to the Wilkes. Others had different experiences, and I am obviously not in a position to say if Orwell was deliberately exaggerating the sheer awfulness of the place. My own time at Wycombe Abbey was tremendous; but I did know some girls who were deeply unhappy, at least to begin with. I have read all of Orwell's published essays, journalism and letters. I used to puzzle over the source of his deep hostility to all things Scottish, especially as he seemed to have virtually no direct experience of the country or its people. It was only when I read Such, Such Were the Joys for the first time that things seemed to fall into place. But, of course, there may be other sources for his prejudice, not least his time in the Burma Police Service. But I do not think it too far fetched to suggest that Flip's cult of Scottishness, and the alleged snobbery associated with it, made a highly significant contribution to his general outlook. Clio the Muse 23:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, Motmit, if you are going to find fault with George Orwell, I may have to regret adding Kathy Wilkes to Wycombe Abbey Seniors!

For me, Orwell is such a star that we must treat even his prejudices with due reverence. You may not know one ironic postscript, which is that after Orwell's death his adopted son, Richard Blair, grew up with an aunt in Scotland, went only to Scottish schools, has lived his whole life in Scotland, and has become (in short) Scottish. There's poetic justice for you. Xn4 00:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It certainly is! It's only fair to add that Orwell's anti-Scottish prejudice declined in the latter part of his career, and disappeared altogether during his time on Jura. Preconceptions have a tendency to fall away in the face of experience; they do with intelligent people anyway. Clio the Muse 00:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting discussion - talking of preconceptions falling away, the same could be said of Cyril Connolly who was Orwell's greatest friend at St Cyprian's (and strangely enough unmentioned in SSWTJ). It was his Enemies of Promise, which caricatured the Wilkes, that provided a starting point for Orwell's essay. When Connolly discovered the truth from reading his parents correspondence with the school he was "sick" with remorse and even went to Mum Wilkes funeral. Orwell of course died before he could do so.

The expression "the sheer awfulness of the place" brings to mind a letter written to the Evening Standard after SSWTJ was published in 1968. "A grotesque travesty" - YOUR REVIEWER Michael Foot, refers to George Orwell’s early experience at “that Stalinite workshop of a prep school disguised under the name of St. Cyprians” (October 1). It is a FACT that its name was indeed St Cyprians. It is the OPINION of the writer, who was there for six years just after Orwell (whose name was Blair anyway and who as such got a scholarship to Eton) that “Stalinite workshop” is a grotesque travesty of a very fine school – Henry Longhurst. If we start from the perspective that St Cyprians was as fine a school as Wycombe Abbey, then SSWTJ may help us understand more about Orwell than the school (sorry Xn4) Motmit 10:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Again welcome, Motmit. If St. Cyprian's was as fine a school as Wycombe Abbey then it must have been very fine indeed, which means that Orwell's hostility only serves to puzzle me all the more. Writers can, and do, exaggerate for various reasons, sensationalism and dramatic effect not least among them. But Such, Such Were the Joys, which is among Orwell's best essays, setting the whole issue of verisimilitude to one side, was not published until after the author's death; so there was really nothing to be served by deliberate hyperbole. It's obvious that something-or someone-at St. Cyprian's upset him, and upset him badly. Perhaps crammers just did not suit him? We know that St. Cyprian's did well enough for him to secure his entry to Eton; but he did not shine there, academically or otherwise. It might be that the curriculam of the day was not for him. At St Cyprian's he develped an interest in natural history, which, in his account, Flip dismisses with condescension. There may be other reasons for his anger. Perhaps he felt socially and personally slighted? Did Orwell exaggerate? Yes, it's possible. But all I can really say, all anyone can say, is that he was looking at the school from his own perspective, and drawing his own conclusions. Orwell is gone; the Wilkes are gone; St. Cyprian's is gone. We will never know the truth for certain. Clio the Muse 22:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of Enemies of Promise, Motmit. As Clio hasn't said a word, she may have that to look forward to. Connolly and Orwell were also friends at Eton, where they both saw themselves as misfits. Orwell, the revolutionary patriot, later described his background as "lower-upper-middle class". Connolly noted "The Theory of Permanent Adolescence... the experiences undergone by boys at the great public schools, their glories and disappointments, are so intense as to dominate their lives and to arrest their development... the greater part of the ruling class remains adolescent, school-minded, self-conscious, cowardly, sentimental, and in the last analysis homosexual." The painful word in that, of course, is 'cowardly'. Xn4 04:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

RD Question

Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#The_Problem_with_Interconnectivity - I was hoping you had a take on this person's question. I voice a mere opinion. I figured you would have an answer based on more historical fact than my speculation. -- Kainaw^(what?) 22:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I did see this, Kainaw, but was not at all sure if I would be able to make a useful contribution. I like the answer you gave; but in general the question seems to demand speculation at a level with which I am not entirely comfortable, and I am not sure that historical examples of trade blocks and embargos would be material to the point. Clio the Muse 23:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On August 29, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Jane McManus Storm Cazneau, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Thanks again Clio. Kindly nominated by Ghirla. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

He's a wonder; my best collaborator! Clio the Muse 03:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

How are you, my Muse?

Greetings, my Muse. I just thought I'd let you know that my research on the philosohy of history is nearing completion, aided along by your brilliant answers on Gibbon and Hume. I'm now about to add a question on Tacitus, and would appreciate your contribution. On past experience I would have come here directly, but I thought that might cause some resentment; so my question is open to the general community, though, I admit, it is you I really want to hear from. Martinben 15:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll certainly have a go, Martin. Clio the Muse 22:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, great Muse. Delivered with your usual aplomb. I wish I knew who you really are! Martinben 12:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I am Clio, Martin, who else? I do, however, in my mortal guise appear in the form of one English female by the name of Anastasia! Clio the Muse 22:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

From me to you

		The Epic Barnstar
		for being so brilliant Martinben 15:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, gracious sir. Clio the Muse 21:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You deserve this and more. Martinben 12:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

She blushes! Clio the Muse 22:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

DYK - Henry Hunt (politician)

On 30 August, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Henry Hunt (politician) , which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

~ Riana ⁂ 10:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks, Riana. Clio the Muse 22:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Ordinances

I noticed that they're up at WP:FAC. Then I noticed... well, see this thread. User_talk:Ewlyahoocom#New_Ordinances_of_1311. Cheers, --Dweller 21:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Dweller, they are widely known in English history as the Ordinances of 1311, a term arising from the Ordainers who compiled the provisions. They may have been new (well, not entirely), but I personally know of no historian who qualifies the baronial charter in this fashion. Therefore, the use of the word 'New' in this context would seem to me to be a quite unecessary- how shall I put it?-neologism! Clio the Muse 22:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks... that's what I thought. --Dweller 09:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Please continue this thread at Talk:New Ordinances of 1311#Requested move. Ewlyahoocom 17:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure that I have much more to add, Ewlyahoocom, other than to say that I sincerely hope not to see pages with headings like the New Constitutions of Clarendon or the New Magna Carta! Clio the Muse 22:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The blue-eyed teapot

That's by Charles Krafft, at DiRT gallery, West Hollywood, Ca. - see here, contact details here. Xn4 01:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that information, Xn4. I can't wait to take the ghastly thing up to Cambridge! Clio the Muse 01:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Forgive the pun, Clio, but something in my bones tells me it's going to cost you an arm and a leg! Xn4 01:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

We'll see! Clio the Muse 01:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

We can be sure he would have been less than thrilled by it. You could have his thoughts on what should happen to those who paint a sky green or fields blue painted onto the side? Xn4 01:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

That would, I think, be taking bad taste just a tad too far! Clio the Muse 01:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Uhn. The unkindest cut of all! Xn4 02:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck?

You are the first woman i "meet" that knows him. Not to mention admires him. This is so refreshing. Why do you think is it most women are not really interested in history in a profounder way?--Tresckow 02:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Tresckow. I admire, I have always admired, people who fight against impossible odds by adapting to circumstances, by using the resources available to them in the most imaginitive way. Stonewall Jackson was brilliant in this fashion and, if anything, Lettow-Vorbeck even more brilliant. As far as I am concerned he is possibly the best German soldier of the whole of the twentieth century. Did you know that he counted the writer Karen Blixen amongst his friends? I cannot really comment on women in general. My love of history, in all of its many aspects, is of long standing, and I am just as interested in low drama as in high intrigue, though my particular expertise lies in seventeenth century English political history, the subject of my doctoral research. Anyway, nice to have made contact with you. Clio the Muse 03:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The other historian

I just glanced at the article on Theodor Mommsen, and found "His work regarding Roman history is still of fundamental importance for contemporary research." in the lead. Just out of curiosity, Musa, mihi causas memora, how is Mommsen received in the English speaking world of research on Roman history these days? ---Sluzzelin talk 08:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello, good evening and welcome, dear Sluzzelin! Roman history is far from being my immediate area of academic concern, so I can only really speak here as a non-specialist. That sentence, I suspect, rather overstates the case. Mommsen is like many of the nineteenth century greats: a palace admired more often than it is visited. It might be truer to say that the main building is rarely entered, though the annex remains popular! Roman History is just a shade too Hegelian in its celebration of the state and state power: all Caesar and no Cicero! Where he does clearly have relevance for contemporary research is, perhaps, in the less demonstrative work; and I am thinking specifically of the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum. As for the Nobel Prize, well, Churchill got that because he was a great man and a good writer; Mommsen got it because he was a great man and a great historian. As such he will live forever in the gardens of Clio. Clio the Muse 23:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your swift reply. I suspected the CIL might legitimize the (still rather vague and possibly misleading) sentence somewhat, and you gave me a good excuse not to pursue this any further. Incididentally, as a kid I often read in my Grandmother's old three volume edition, specifically the chapters on the Republic fascinated me, but, unlike you, I didn't have what it takes to read and memorize it all, and possibly even preferred the History of Rome as presented by that reputed French scholar René Goscinny. :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 23:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

And I used to read and enjoy these! Clio the Muse 23:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh! I loved stuff like that. I didn't even know these, and what a wonderful title! Of course they didn't even exist yet during my childhood. Nor did British humour exist in my formal education. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Not that ancient, surely! Clio the Muse 01:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly as old as he was when this picture was taken, (though without the top hat). Ingeborg Bachmann, (another favorite of mine), starts her short story Das dreißigste Jahr (the 30th year) with (my bad translation) "When someone enters his thirtieth year, one won't stop calling him 'young'." Well, there you go, what a sobering statement, it made me dread my 30th birthday for many years, and I'm way past it now. Plus, what I encounter here, when browsing too much, sometimes makes me feel ancient indeed. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ditto, and what else did I miss? Come on, "history is merely gossip." Fill me in, Miss Gossipry! ---Sluzzelin talk 02:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

...or a distillation of rumour! Alas, dear Sluzzelin, neither gossip nor rumour to report: it's all been so boringly normal. I shall have to say something outrageous. After all, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about! (Thanks for the archiving, Rockpocket). Clio the Muse 22:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Such, Such were the Joys!

I'm impressed by your opinion, Clio. Great place, not famous. I have to admit, I don't agree with Orwell that "...boarding schools are worse than day schools. A child has a better chance with the sanctuary of its home near at hand". For me, it was a thrill to escape. But we know his schooldays were unhappier than ours. Xn4 05:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

When I was sent away from home for the very first time I must confess I was a little bit tearful and fearful, but before this I used to soak up stories about girls' boarding schools and quickly learned to make the most of the opportunities offered by Wycombe Abbey, which I came to adore. Yes, you are right about Orwell. I do not want to make too much of this-though I touched on it in the thread on Mum Wilkes above-but I think that little Eric Blair-and let's be clear it is Eric Blair that I have in mind-was wounded or slighted in early life (Lord, this sounds so awfully Freudian!), almost certainly at St. Cyprian's, because the 'Bolshie' attitude he developed by the time he went to Eton seems to me like a form of emotional armour, more than anything else. I can only speculate here, but the English class systen was much more rigid in his day, and I think he always felt himself to be an outsider; an outsider from his own middle-class mileu and an outsider from the working-class he adopted but never really seemed to like. The protagonists in his novels are always the same lower middle-class types, which is really no surprise. What is revealing is the way that some become such self-pitying egocentrics. Just think of the tiresome Gordon Comstock in Keep the Aspidistra Flying, who digs his own social grave then blames everybody else when he lies in it! Please do not think I am hostile to Orwell; I'm not; I love his work, though some parts more than others, and the essays more than most of the fiction. Clio the Muse 22:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure you're right about Eric Blair - but his tragedy was surely the tuberculosis, and not the 'evil chance' [Yeats] which took the joy and belonging out of his life. On the whole, it must be better to be a towering tragic genius than not? And without that speck of grit in the oyster...

I understand that you like the essays most. With chunks of his journalism, they are the purest gold. I admit, I love the fiction, too, which is full of hard truths and understanding of our predicament. Just feel the bitter pain of that line in Keep the Aspidistra Flying: "A woman hates the sight of you if you've got no money". (Blair was always hard-up, until he had a best-seller with Animal Farm.) Certainly, to himself he was always really Blair and not Orwell. There's a sweet passage in his last will (written in the week of his death) - "...lastly, I direct that my body shall be buried (not cremated) according to the rites of the Church of England in the nearest convenient cemetery, and that there shall be placed over my grave a plain brown stone bearing the inscription, 'Here lies Eric Arthur Blair, born June 25th 1903, died...'"

But I must cheer up, so I'll say that the above almost has a ring of the young Duke of Dorset's exchange of telegrams with his butler in Zuleika Dobson:

Opening the envelope, the Duke saw that the message, with which was a prepaid form for reply, had been handed in at the Tankerton post-office. It ran thus:

"Deeply regret inform your grace last night two black owls came and perched on battlements remained there through night hooting at dawn flew away none knows whither awaiting instructions Jellings"

The Duke's face, though it grew white, moved not one muscle.

Somewhat shamed now, the gods ceased from laughing.

The Duke looked from the telegram to the boy. "Have you a pencil?" he asked.

"Yes, my Lord," said the boy, producing a stump of pencil.

Holding the prepaid form against the door, the Duke wrote:

"Jellings Tankerton Hall Prepare vault for funeral Monday Dorset"

Xn4 02:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Lovely! Clio the Muse 03:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I often wondered why, if Blair was so class-obsessed he never made such a fuss about Eton, which by anyone's book is the pinnacle of the class system. I suspect the explanation is that as an Eton scholar he was in a coterie of about 100 people who were on the same intellectual level as himself - whereas at St Cyps he had to live with alot of people who weren't so bright. If they had money or titles it riled him, although most of them probably had a similar background to his own. Motmit 22:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to say I feel that there is an element of 'class jealousy' (no estate in Scotland for Eric Blair!) arising from St. Cyprian's. Social distance would be less obvious when he was among the scholars. Clio the Muse 23:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)