User talk:Clarkenorman

Hello, Clarkenorman, and Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{Help me}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking

if shown; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field with your edits. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! —EncMstr (talk) 22:35, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Getting started
A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: Edit a page • Upload and use images • Create your first article Intuitive guide to Wikipedia • Article Creation Wizard
Getting help
Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Help desk: A Wiki Styled page to ask questions on Help directory: A comprehensive list-style help contents page
Policies and guidelines
Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons List of policies • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • List of guidelines Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability

The community
Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists
Writing articles
Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Simplified manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Peer review • Featured content
Miscellaneous
User pages • Talk pages Awards a registered contributor can achieve and award Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Skiing

Hello, I'm EncMstr. I noticed that you recently removed some content from History of skiing without explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an edit summary. The removed content has been restored. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. —EncMstr (talk) 22:35, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I got your note on my talk page, but I am confused if you want to re-add or remove content. If there have been no intermediate edits, you can use the revert link on the page history, skiing history which can also be clicked on at the top of the Skiing page. The page history shows edits and edit summaries and offers difference (diff) selection to see the changes between any two revisions. Go ahead and give it a try. If you make a reversion mistake, don't worry, it is easily fixed by reverting your change. —EncMstr (talk) 04:40, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Expanded references for Kiandra snow shoe club

Hi Clarkenorman, I've done some work at Kiandra snow shoe club to address some WP:MOS issues. It would be very helpful, if you could substitute correct values by editing the items in boldface (if available) in the following templates here in this section for references that are cited in the article, as follows:

Correspondent (10 August 1887). "Kiandra". The Manaro Mercury, and Cooma and Bombala Advertiser. Cooma, New South Wales. Retrieved 2015-12-29. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)
Editors (6 July 1908). "Ski Running at Kiandra—An International Contest". The Argus. Melbourne. p. 8. Retrieved 2015-12-29. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)

Thanks for your work in Wikipedia! Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 19:42, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Norman, I believe that I' set with the above material. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 21:15, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, but I do not believe that I will ever use, edit or enter anything on WP again. --Clarkenorman (talk) 22:11, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel positive—You have shed light on the history of skiing in Australia

Happy New Year, Mr. Clarke! I'm sorry that your early experiences with WP feel discouraging to you. One of the guiding principles of WP is that we assume good faith. While your experience may not have played out as you feel is correct, please take heart in the knowledge that the Kiandra Snow Shoe Club has gained new prominence in the consciousness of people interested in skiing in other parts of the world. I appreciate that WP and its rules may appear to be an "odd duck" to you, but these rules are designed to present information in a conservative and reliable fashion. Settled knowledge is preferred, but if controversy exists, then we can't take sides until a consensus has been reached.

That there was skiing at Kiandra in 1861, is unquestioned. However, I've strained really hard to find a reliable source that indicates that there was an actual club formed in 1861. The Manaro Mercury reliably reported on the activities of the club, but issues aren't available on line during the period reaching back to 1861. Even your WORLD’S FIRST ALPINE SKI CLUB Second Edition By Norman W Clarke doesn't point to anything published at the time. Instead, you have two letters that attest to its founding, but we don't know the evidence on which they based that assessment (other than the presence of organized skiing). Because the two letters don't conform to WP:Reliable sources, I plan to move reference to them into a note in the Kiandra Snow Shoe Club article.

Unfortunately, letters don't really belong in the list in the History of skiing article, even if they represented reliable sources. So, with regrets to you, I plan to remove them there. Again, please don't feel discouraged. I urge you to feel positive about the light that you have shed on the history of skiing in Australia for which I am grateful! I'll give you an opportunity to discuss here, before I do further edits. Others, e.g. User:Erik den yngre, may choose to intervene before that, however.

Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 13:34, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, FIS "NEWS FROM THE WORLD OF SKIING—Celebrations of Australian skiing history underway" no longer mentions or links to the Kiandra region, at all. So, this doesn't qualify as a reliable source on that topic. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:29, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have made some notes in Kiandra Snow Shoe Club#Notes that i hope adequately describe the sources of claims for the 1861 date and those against. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 01:54, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dear User:HopsonRoad

As we have not achieved a solution to our differing views, I have started writing the “World’s First Alpine Ski Club” – Third Edition. The Second Edition was inspired by many false and deliberate misrepresented and unsubstantiated statements made to discredit the “Kiandra Pioneer Ski Club” history.

The “Third Edition” will focus similar inaccuracies, source references and statements within Wikipedia.

You may follow the progress on my web pages google “Norman Clarke publications”.

Regards,

Norman.

Hi Norman, there is no "deliberate" attempt to discredit the claims that you have made. If you feel that there are incorrect statements in the article, the best course of action is to go to Talk:Kiandra Snow Shoe Club and state the appropriate corrections, together with any supporting WP:Reliable sources. I'm sure that everyone interested in the topic wishes to represent the facts correctly. I don't plan to follow the website that you mention. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 13:37, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Norman, another idea, which could be quite persuasive, would be to team up with a newspaper reporter and write an article, based on the archival material that you have at your disposal. This would break the WP:No original research logjam and achieve publication from a reliable source. An important principle of WP is that sources have editorial oversight, where possible—as books and newspapers typically do, but self-published items and blogs do not. I hope that this helps. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 14:28, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:HopsonRoad

Thank you but the book will proceed, as will possible slander action regarding FROM THE WORLD OF SKIING—Celebrations of Australian skiing history underway"] no longer mentions or links to the Kiandra region, at all. So, this doesn't qualify as a reliable source on that topic. --Clarkenorman (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clarkenorman, you may have incorrectly concluded that links from the FIS NewsFlash headline pertaining to the FIS "NEWS FROM THE WORLD OF SKIING—Celebrations of Australian skiing history underway" were disrupted as part of an attempt to "discredit' your claims. They were not. You can see this by clicking on any of the other "Read more" links in the same article, each of which will lead you to current events. The same is true of the next edition of the NewsFlash series. Since you were blocked for making a legal threat (above), I know that you can't reply until you remove the threat and appeal your block. I just wanted you to know that there is no conspiracy, only a sincere desire to report on the topic through reliable sources. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:12, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:HopsonRoad This statement appears to be a complete falsehood "only a sincere desire to report on the topic through reliable sources." If it were true then the inclusion of “Trysilgutten Ski Club” and "Inderøens Skiløberforening" would be removed from the 1861 line and replaced with the previously quoted line which read! 1861: The first identifiable and ceaseless ski club was formed at Kiandra, Australia.

Why Wikipedia is a suspect source itself see.^[1] (Also found at "Norman Clarke Publications". The third Edition of "The World's Fist Alpine Ski Club is well underway. Clarkenorman (talk) 22:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response, Norman. There is a difference between being properly motivated and being correct. Being incorrect is not necessarily the consequence of insincerity. You suggest that the material that you disagree with is a result of insincerity.

In the matter that you cite, there is no question that I know of that the Kiandra Pioneer Ski Club is the "world's longest continuously running ski club", according to reliable sources. The question at issue is whether it is also the first or founded at the same time as other "firsts". There is not a reliable source, by WP standards that supports this. However, you could be instrumental, as I pointed out above, by teaming with an author with a reputable newspaper or other publisher in a manner that results in a publication, subject to editorial oversight that makes the case for first.

The material that you could use to make your case in such an article, would presumably be the material that you used to persuade both the Holmenkollen Ski Museum and the FIS that your club was the oldest. Here's wishing you well. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 22:47, 14 January 2016 (UTC

Notice regarding your legal threat

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. User:HopsonRoad 02:53, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

January 2016

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for making legal threats or taking legal action. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.

You are not allowed to edit Wikipedia while the threats stand or the legal action is unresolved. Drmies (talk) 03:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarkenorman, please read Wikipedia:No legal threats and WP:Appealing a block carefully. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 03:19, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

^ http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sealark/kiandra.html

[1] ttp://members.ozemail.com.au/~sealark/kiandra.html

[1]