User talk:ClaretAsh/Userboxes/Australian

Southern Cross

@Fry1989

I have to admit I don't understand your attitude. A southern cross is a southern cross. It doesn't have to be of particular dimensions to be considered representative of any particular country. Hence its use by the ANZSP military history task force. To claim that it is the Samoan southern cross, though, is simply absurd. The source info for that file clearly states that it was derived from the Papua New Guinea flag. You may not be aware but Papua New Guinea is a country located directly north of Queensland (an Australian state). It is not to be confused with Samoa, a country just to the east of the International Date Line, nowhere near Papua New Guinea as it happens.

Additionally, I don't understand why you think blue stars on a white background are more representative of Australia than white stars on blue (of whatever dimensions). As I've already stated, a blue southern cross is used nowhere but on the Australian White Ensign. Most depictions of the southern cross in Australia are of white stars on a blue background.

All in all, though, none of this should matter. I'm an Australian and I consider this depiction sufficiently representative of my country. No Australians have complained. And nor would they. I created this userbox for my own use in my own userspace. It has no other transclusions. If you don't like it, then don't visit my userpage. Lord Vetinari 12:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many people would disagree with you. A Southern Cross is a Southern Cross yes, but several countries have chosen different ways to depict it. New Zealand has chosen four red stars with 5 points. Australia has chosen to display all 5 starsof Crux with 4 of them 7-pointed and one 5-pointed. Other pacific nations have their variations. You say you want your template to display it the way it is on the Aussie flag, and yet you overlook that you're using the version of the cross from another country's flag! Now, there is no reason why we can't have the blue stars, it's simple a reverse of the Aussie flag, but if you do insist on a strict resemblance to the Aussie flag, having white stars on blue background, I can make that in seconds, it's easy. But to use another country's version of the cross on an Aussie template is silly. If you had been using the New Zealand version, I bet a lot of Aussies would be up in arms about that, and I don't think it should be any different for another country in the Pacific region. Fry1989 (talk) 18:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have made it like the Aussie flag. Is that better? Fry1989 (talk) 18:39, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Silliness. I never said I wanted the template to display it the way it is on the Australian flag and I certainly don't insist on any strict resemblance to anything. I don't care whether it is based on any official version. And I don't care about any perceived symbolism in using this or that version. There's more important things in life than petty nationalism; and obsessing about symbolism, as some people in this world like to do, is equally petty and fundamentally pathetic. People in Canada might take nationalism seriously but in my country, people are too busy living their lives to concern themselves overmuch with that sort of silliness. Incidentally, I find it very telling that no one else has complained about the image or the template, especially not Australians. Lord Vetinari 11:07, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And for the record, the reason I am so vehemently opposing your actions is that I don't like your attitude in rudely barging into my userspace and making peremptory (but petty) changes without so much as a by your leave. A civil person would have commenced by politely querying the image concerned, following with an offer to replace it if the user (me) agreed. As this particular userbox is not attached to a WikiProject or some other such WP group, and as it has no transclusions outside my userspace, and as this is not an issue of copyright or a similar issue of urgency, basic manners dictate that any changes should be agreed to by me, the template's creator and the only other editor of this template. This is a little thing called consensus, which is quite popular here in Wikipedia, but which you may not have heard of. What it means is that, instead of making peremptory edits, participating parties are compelled to rely upon the persuasiveness of their arguments. In the meantime, I've changed my userbox back to how I had it and I'll thank you to stay away from it. Lord Vetinari 14:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You never said you wanted it like the Aussie flag huh?Then why did you say in the Revert History "Southern cross as used on Australian flag..."??? So maybe you want to retract that. Now, you're taking this as if it's personal, when it's not. I was going through userboxes in Babel, and when I see one that can be updated, or as I view needs a correction, then I will do it. Yours isn't the only one. There have been some templates that used a PNG image, when a new better SVG version was available. When I saw yours, I saw an Australian template using the Southern Cross of another nation. For me, that IS something that could be corrected. Now, I've tried to be accomadating, in making a version for you with white stars on blue, but if you are so insistant to have it your way, then fine, but don't expect me to be the last one to notice your odd choice, especially if other users decide to use your template on their page as well. Fry1989 (talk) 18:26, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A simple statement is not the same as a declaration of intent. All I wanted was a standalone southern cross consisting of white stars on blue. I wasn't, and still aren't, concerned with its origin. As with nationality, the origins of a symbol don't matter. What matters is how that symbol is used. The swastika, for example, had a long, sacred and international history both before and since the Nazis. If you think it an "odd choice" for me to use a barely recognisable (even you didn't recognise it) Papua New Guinea version of the Southern Cross, then consider the flag of Hawaii, that uses the Union Jack despite the country having its own symbols; depite never being a British colony, territory or dependency; and merely being a British protectorate for less than half a century. Symbols, like nationality, can be appropriated. That's why I consider myself Australian despite having an English father, Romany ancestors and Canadian relatives. And that's also why Canadians will happily live, march and even die beneath a red maple leaf on a Canadian pale, despite the bulk of their culture and values originating across the Atlantic. You may think it silly, just as I think it silly that a foreigner such as yourself expresses support for monarchy in countries of which you are not a citizen and whose culture and values you probably don't understand. But then, silliness does play a huge role in the human condition, as so many playwrights have pointed out. In the meantime, please accept this symbol of peace as I'm sure neither of us has enjoyed this disagreement, and both of us have better things to do than prolong it any further.

Lord Vetinari 02:37, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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