User talk:Cinemaniac/Archives/Looney Tunes

"This Means War"

That phrase originated in Duck Soup (just in this context, not in the course of human history). That exact phraseology was used by Ambassador Trentino (Louis Calhern). Groucho echoed it by saying, "Then it's war!" It's possible Groucho said "This means war" in A Night at the Opera, I can't recall. But the phrase, in connection with the Marx Brothers, originated in Duck Soup. Maybe the Bugs Bunny article should say it's connected with the Marx Brothers, rather than Groucho himself. It's kind of like "Play it again, Sam", which everyone knows Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman said in Casablanca, and of course neither of them actually said it quite that way. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I watched A Night at the Opera just recently. During the scene involving Chico, Harpo, and Allan Jones disguising themselves as Russian aviators (with Groucho there to monitor the situation), an undercover policeman discovers Harpo's fake beard is coming off. He confronts Groucho, saying, "I think these fellows are phonies!". Groucho then goes on and talks with the other two (in an unintelligible dialect that was actually recorded normally then inserted into the film in reverse), after which Chico and Jones walk off angrily. Groucho then stares at the policeman and mayor and quips: "Of course you know, this means war!", before walking off himself. — Cinemaniac 14:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ya know, looking back at it, it's funny you mentioned the famous misquotation from Casablanca, "Play it again, Sam", as an example. Because that quote was actually first uttered in A Night in Casablanca, the Marx Brothers's spoof of the 1943 Bogart/Bergman classic. — Cinemaniac 23:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Groucho's statement echoes the same line featured in Duck Soup. As I said, the exact phrase is actually spoken by Trentino. This funny scene goes like this:

Firefly: I'd be unworthy of the high trust that's been placed in me if I didn't do everything within my power to keep our Freedonia at peace. I'd be only too happy to meet Ambassador Trentino and offer him, on behalf of my country, the right hand of good fellowship. And I feel sure he will accept this gesture in the spirit in which it is offered... But suppose he doesn't? A fine thing that'll be. I hold out my hand and he refuses to accept it. That'll add a lot to my prestige, won't it? Me, the head of a country, snubbed by a foreign ambassador. Who does he think he is that he can come here and make a sap out of me in front of my people? Think of it: I hold out my hand, and that hyena refuses to accept it. Why, the cheap four-flushing swine. He'll never get away with it I tell you!

(Trentino enters)

Firefly: So, you refuse to shake hands with me, eh?! (slaps Trentino with gloves)

Trentino: Mrs. Teasdale, this is the last straw! There's no turning back now. This means war!

(Trentino leaves)

Groucho: Then it's war!

others: Then it's war! (leads into a song)

Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

And Bugsy's phrase also varied. Sometimes he said, "Of course you realize this means war!" and other times he said "Of course you know this means war!" Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe if we mention in the Bugs Bunny article something along these lines: "Bugs's famous catchphrase, "Of course, you know this means war!", had actually been popularized earlier by the Marx Brothers in their films Duck Soup and A Night at the Opera." … I think that would work. I still believe that it technically should be attributed to Groucho because he actually said the words in the latter film, but, as you've pointed out, variants of the phrase were spoken by many others (specifically Louis Calhern) in Duck Soup, also. I'm willing to comply and say the Marx Brothers, if not Groucho himself, used the phrase in both films. — Cinemaniac 14:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I already revised it somewhat. The tendency to attribute it to Groucho is made by many authors. Returning to the "play it again, Sam", it was Ingrid Bergman who said "play it, Sam" and later Bogart said, "If she can stand it, so can I. Play it." Those two statements homogenized into the not-quite-factual "Play it again, Sam." Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This Duck Soup script [1] is a little hard to follow, but I find at least 3 places where someone says "This means war!" First by Trentino, then by Groucho, then by Trentino again. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The actual phrase "This means war!" long pre-dates the Marxes, I'm sure. It's just a melodramatic statement, for comic emphasis, in both Marx and Bugs pictures. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Note the reference in Case of the Missing Hare. This might be the first time Bugs says it on-screen. He says "realize" instead of "know". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

That pie-in-the-face incident is the first time Bugs says it (according to Greg Ford, at least), but the line [specifically "Of course you KNOW that this means war!"] was said by Happy Rabbit in the 1938 cartoon Porky's Hare Hunt. That short was the debut of Happy Rabbit, now considered the prototypical version of our favorite hare. He's barely recognizable compared to his more familiar later form, and he's got that sort of grating Woody Woodpecker-like voice that would later be carried on to Hare-um Scare-um. The first true Bugs Bunny cartoon did not come out until two years later, in Tex Avery's A Wild Hare. — Cinemaniac 01:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Good research. And as a side note, one editor is now saying the name "Happy Rabbit" was a fig newton of Mel Blanc's imagination. More research is needed on that. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

In looking back at it, I don't think it's unlikely that Mel Blanc actually may have made this 'Happy Rabbit' info up in his later years and interviews. Evidence of this possibility is present in many of Blanc's interviews themselves. For instance, Blanc's favorite story of how he created Porky Pig's voice is of him visiting a farm and wallowing around in the mud with the pigs for awhile, later realising that pigs, if they could talk, would talk with a grunt; thus, Porky Pig's "stutter" is, according to Blanc, not a stutter at all but a grunt. But, as Bob Clampett's son has pointed out, "Mel conveniently forgot that he was Porky's second voice!" Indeed, that job was originally that of Joe Dougherty, before he was fired because of his inability to control his own stammering problem.

Mel Blanc's credibility can, in other cases, be called into question even more. We all know of Mel Blanc's contract regarding him being given sole credit in the cartoons. But in some cases where he could have given more accurate info concerning those uncredited performers, he did not: Blanc did not say anything about Paul Julian being the actual voice of the Road Runner (crediting the "mheep-mheep!" alternately to himself or to some erroneous device), and only once, I think, did he confess that he actually did not take up Elmer Fudd's voice immediately after Arthur Q. Bryan passed away (in reality, in those cases Fudd's voice was done by "a fellow by the name of Smith"). There's always something …

Finally, in regards to "Happy Rabbit" being the prototype for Bugs: I can recall some interviews with Friz Freleng talking about this subject. (I think they're featured in the first and second Looney Tunes Golden Collection volumes.) Anyway, in both interviews, he says that "There were other Bugs Bunnys before [the true Bugs Bunny we all know], but they weren't really the same character. Those Bugses were more like Daffy Duck in a rabbit suit." Now, why didn't Freleng just say "Happy Rabbit" when referring to these "Bugses"? It sort of reminds me of how Michigan J. Frog and Marvin the Martian didn't acquire their current names until many years after their debuts. I think Ted Watson's and jeff schiller's arguments are valid. — Cinemaniac 02:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. In many cases, the names came later. Porky and Daffy were some exceptions. Bugs, Leghorn, Sylvester, Tweety, etc., all named later. The tricky part is to come up with exact citations that contradict Blanc's claims. Also, I don't know that he demanded exclusive voice credit. It's that he was the only one in any position to make demands of any kind, so he was the only one whose contract called for credit. He was a great talent, and knew it. Nothing wrong with that. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I've heard of this funny story from fellow voice actor Stan Freberg: Some time after being employed, Mel Blanc went to the boss and asked for more pay. Of course, Schlesinger "refused". With that, Blanc asked for solo screen credit (more or less); and since that didn't cost Schlesinger anything, he went ahead and gave it to him! :)

In fact, there are only two times when Mel Blanc was not given solo credit for his voice acting: 1) The Three Little Bops, a late 50s Freleng cartoon with "voice characterizations by Stan Freberg"; and 2) The Mouse that Jack Built, a Robert McKimson-directed parody of The Jack Benny Show, complete with the original cast (which, notwithstanding, included Mel Blanc in two roles). --- Cinemaniac 03:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

That would be Freberg's view on the "exclusive credit" story, which is possibly contrary to whatever Blanc may have said, and it's hard to tell who would be correct. More research needed. Blanc was, of course, a regular on the Benny radio and TV shows. His "Si, Sy, Sew, Sue" routine had to be seen and/or listened to, to understand how funny it was. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, The Jack Benny Program was probably Mel Blanc's "home away from home" (when he wasn't doing something for Warners). In addition to his famous contribution as Benny's dying, sputtering Maxwell, Blanc also appeared on the program as Benny's violin teacher, parrot, and polar bear, as well as the often-tested store clerk and train announcer ("and COOC-amonga!").

Before I undertake the research needed for finding reliable sources that may contradict Mel Blanc's claims, I do want to provide some more clarifying information. I hope no one thinks I have anything against Blanc in bringing this info about him out. On the contrary, in my opinion he's probably the most responsible for Warner's success in the field of animation (his vocal range has provided a certain continuity in the cartoons and provided a link between the audience and the characters). To elaborate on my thoughts I will quote Simpsons animator Milton Gray from this [essay]. It's admittedly more about Gray's thoughts concerning the Bob Clampett/Chuck Jones feud, but I found the following paragraph particularly relevant to many of the other key people at Termite Terrace as well:

"For many years surrounding 1969, it was practically impossible for anyone in animation outside of the Disney Studio to get any publicity or promotion for their careers, and almost the only way to get any at all was to claim to have been the creator of several famous cartoon characters. And so it was common in those days for the various Warner directors—including Chuck Jones, plus voice artist Mel Blanc—to claim the creation of virtually all of the Warner characters that they were ever associated with, in whatever little newspaper or magazine articles they could get. This practice led increasingly to injured feelings among the various Warner directors. Tex Avery once publicly criticized Chuck Jones for taking too much credit for the creation of Bugs Bunny, and I have a publicity release, which was being sent to the media from the DePatie-Freleng Studio as late as 1973, that flatly states that Friz Freleng was the sole creator of Bugs Bunny (who actually came into being while Friz was away at MGM for one-and-a-half years), Daffy Duck, Tweety, Porky Pig and others. In 1969, Bob Clampett didn't really know Mike Barrier or myself, and the uncommonly intense integrity that we brought to our research and reporting, and so I would have to say that any exaggerations of emphasis that Bob allowed himself in the 1969 [Funnyworld magazine] interview were well within the bounds of acceptability that had already been established by his peers."

Again, for any users reading our ongoing discussion, I don't have anything against Mel Blanc at all; I'm simply trying to collect and analyze information and get closer to the truth. In this case, be thankful for enthusiasts like Keith Scott and Jerry Beck, without whom we may never know many of the people who went uncredited in these early cartoons. — Cinemaniac 02:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

When I get more time, in a few weeks, I'll be looking into this some more also. I'm curious to find out the real story of "Happy Rabbit". For example, there is a website [2], kind of an old one, that has all manner of interesting minutia, and I don't think it mentions "Happy Rabbit". However, I don't have time to peruse the whole thing tonight. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The hyperlink you provided was extremely helpful. That web site (one I, oddly enough, had not been aware of) is a treasure trove of information; it's a real eye-opener. For instance, I've always enjoyed watching Arsenic and Old Lace, almost as much as I've enjoyed watching Clampett's 1946 work Kitty Kornered. I had no idea that the former was being referenced in the cartoon, but after reading that tidbit at that [site], it makes since! It will no doubt be helpful in the upcoming days as I try to find and figure out some reliable sources for this Mel Blanc/Happy Rabbit investigation. (I'm getting tired just thinking about all the information I'll have to wade through. Oh a-gony! A-GO-NY! ) Thanks again.  :) — Cinemaniac 02:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The author of that website seems to have done his homework and also admits where there is doubt. I think it's a great resource. It has the ring of truth to it. The author obviously knows a lot about old-time radio. I've used that site many times to point out radio catch-phrases that would show up. The WB cartoons of the 1940s were an excellent barometer of pop culture, just as The Flintstones and The Simpsons were and are in their times. Remember the one with the gremlin? I think it's called Falling Hare. The final gag in the film, where Bugsy says, "You know how it is with these 'A' cards!" probably got a huge laugh from the contemporary audience. I know what it means, but the average kid seeing it now would probably go "Huh?" unless he knew about WWII gasoline rationing. Then there's A Tale of Two Kitties, one of my all-time favorites and which is on LTGC 5, released just a couple of weeks ago. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I truly regret not yet having purchased the most recent Golden Collection DVD; I've heard it's great, but apparently none of the stores in my area are stocking it (except for all of the Spotlight Collections, which I have no intention of getting, for reasons I explained here.) I sincerely hope I'll be able to get it soon though .

Speaking of Falling Hare, d'you think it's possible that the ending of that cartoon might have been inspired by Chico's nonsensical "airplane" speech in A Night at the Opera? It certainly brings it to mind. — Cinemaniac 03:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll have to review my copy of A Night at the Opera once I can get to it. Regarding the Vol 5 DVD, I ordered mine from my nearby Barnes & Noble. They only got one copy in, and someone else already had dibs on it. But they'll order anything, for no charge, and in this case they had it in the store within a few days of its release date. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Porky's "S.O.B." story

It would be best to avoid "recent" as a description, and give at least the specific year in which it was released. LTGC Vol. 4 was a year ago. I don't know about the other one. In any case, Porky's speech impediment is funny if not very PC. Perhaps the most extreme case was when he thought the earth was being invaded by Martians. This was in Kitty_Kornered. As I recall he looks into the camera with a terrified expression, and in more of a stammer than a stutter, he shouts, "M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-MEN FROM MARS!" (Print doesn't do it justice.) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Will do! If I remember correctly, the Each Dawn I Die DVD was released in 2004. If it turns out my edit is wrong, though, I'll probably end up pounding my head against the wall...  :)

While I'm at it, I might need your help again. A few days ago I created a page concerning Greg Ford; would you mind visiting it and cleaning it up? It was the first article I created, so it understandably lacks citations. I'll be asking several more Wikipedians with a great knowledge of animation and its history to drop by that new article, too. — Cinemaniac 03:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. I don't claim to have a broad knowledge of animation history, just certain aspects of it. I need to find out more about this guy Greg Ford. I'm not in any position to do that right now. Remind me in a couple of weeks. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Greg Ford is one of the more recent (and in my opinion, the better) of the contributors to post-Golden Age Warner Bros. Animation. His 1991 work (Blooper) Bunny (now having garnered a cult following among Looney Tune fans) has been heralded as one of the best WB cartoons of our day—according to IMDb, at least.

By the way, I just searched the Web. … It looks like I was a little bit hasty editing: The Each Dawn I Die DVD was released on July 18, 2006, not 2004. I'll fix the edit soon, as soon as I take some aspirin for my headache... — Cinemaniac 03:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. I took out the "recent", which is discouraged for various reasons. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Mel Blanc/Happy Rabbit Investigation, Cont'd

This "investigation", if you will, is coming along a lot faster than I thought it would. Here's an interesting tidbit I found in Michael Barrier's 1999 book, Hollywood Cartoons, bringing one of Blanc's most common (and oft-repeated) claims concerning Bugs Bunny's evolution into serious question:

"The most prominent of New York-flavored characters was, of course, Bugs Bunny, although there was disagreement among the people who worked on the cartoons about just how much of a New Yorker Bugs really was. Mel Blanc described the voice as a combination of Bronx and Brooklyn accents; Tex Avery said, to the contrary, that he had asked Blanc to give him not a New York voice as such, but a voice like that of actor Frank McHugh, who turned up frequently in supporting roles in the thirties and whose voice might be described as New York Irish. ( [Still, t]he resemblance is slight at best.)

Bugs's voice in A Wild Hare is actually "straighter", that is, with a less sharply defined accent, than his voice in many of the cartoons made a few years later. It was in the late forties that Bugs sounded most like a cagey New York street kid. The only hole in the ground where this rabbit was truly at home was the subway---and, in fact, in Bob McKimson's Hurdy-Gurdy Hare, he bambooles an unfortunate gorilla (a real one, not the human equivalent) in the authoritative tones of a subway conductor: 'Okay, push in, plenty of room in the center of the car, push in, plenty of room,' pausing to remark to the camera, 'I used to work on the shuttle from Time Square to Grand Central.'"

An interesting bit of info from a respected historian... I hope it's a good enough reliable source. I'll be quoting from this book a lot (along with another similar landmark, Leonard Maltin's Of Mice and Magic), as I continue to investigate this subject. (I unfortunately don't have access to other invaluable sources, such as Steve Schneider's That's All, Folks!! or Jerry Beck's Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies guide---but, then again, we are always free to ask questions at their websites.) While I'm on the subject of Mel Blanc, I found this fascinating ten-minute-or-so interview by David Letterman of him at this link: (http://www.cartoonbrew.com/classic/mel-blanc-on-letterman-1981). --- Cinemaniac 01:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll have to give it a listen once I'm on a computer with usable sound. That should be fascinating. You're right about the evolution of Bugs' voice. Oddly, the first one in which he was actually named had his old "Happy Rabbit" voice (so-labeled here for convenience only) which was like a buck-toothed country bumpkin. That suggests they either (1) weren't quite sure what to do with him and/or (2) that the cartoons were released out of production order. I've got the Beck guide, which is priceless for plot and production details. I don't know if it's still available in any way, shape or form. I like Bugs of the 40s. By the 50s he was getting kind of repetitive, and the WB cartoons from that era that I like the best are Road Runners and also, of course, gems like One Froggy Evening. The main thing with the Road Runners were to see just how Wile E. Coyote was going to get clobbered in each gag. One tidbit from LTGC 5, in Buccaneer Bunny: Bugs is up in the crows nest, Sam stands at one end of a seesaw, tosses a cannonball on the other end, bounces straight up and bangs his head on the underside of the crows nest. Pretty tame now, but a forerunner of the Road Runner jokes. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Probably, although I can remember similar gags happening in Freleng's Tweety-and-Sylvester series, and in a 1951 Bob McKimson-directed Bugs Bunny cartoon entitled Big Top Bunny. --- Cinemaniac 02:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that instead of rubbing out references to "Happy Rabbit", it might be better to reinstate him, with the caveat that apparently no one, outside of Mel Blanc, used this name for him, and that it serves only as a time-frame reference. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

One more thing: In one scene in Buccaneer Bunny, Sam is at the bottom of the ocean, mouthing unheard words. My guess would be he was saying "G.D.S.O.B." (to put it semi-politely), which the WB artists were known to do sometimes, escaping the censors (unless they were lip-readers). The Beck book makes specific mention of that, not in Buccaneer Bunny, but in the one about Myles Standish. One Indian accidentally clobbers another, and the angry Indian turns and mouths those words, with little musical tones for each syllable, but no words spoken out loud. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The cartoon you are probably referring to is Hardship of Miles Standish, an early Elmer Fudd cartoon released in 1940. — Cinemaniac 20:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

About Jerry Beck's must-have guide, I just found out that it has apparently been out of print for some time. A bad thing---I don't think I'll have good luck at finding this book at my town's public library. It looks like I'll have to go to Beck's weblog (http://cartoonresearch.com) and ask questions myself. --- Cinemaniac 02:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Bummer. Well, pester him with enough questions, and maybe he'll think about doing a re-issue. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about the Beck/Friedwald book. I abandoned my copy as part of a major relocation a few years ago because it was falling apart and I assumed it would be fairly easy to get another (ditto Maltin's Of Mice and Magic). An article on the "character" might be better entitled The Bugs Bunny Prototype or something of the sort. I've been going through related articles and changing references to "Happy Rabbit" to "the Bugs Bunny prototype." Should I put that on hold pending the outcome of this discussion (especially since I can't make that change in the Warner Bros. cartoon characters template)? Ted Watson 21:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe for a little while; at least until I can get this information sorted out. Your arguments were (and are) valid; what I'm trying to find out is whether or not anyone else can contradict Blanc's claims concerning Bugs Bunny's evolution (or any other questionable statements that present themselves). For instance, Blanc is often called "The Man of a Thousand Voices". Not really an exaggeration, even though, according to the back cover of the Looney Tunes Golden Collection: Volume 3, IMDb only lists 904 voice credits in his filmography. :) [Just a little attempt at humor....] I'll be back with more revelatory information to share, I'm sure. — Cinemaniac 01:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Many of Blanc's specific character voices were variations on the same thing. Bugs and Tweety have a lot of similarities. So did Leghorn and Yosemite Sam. And obviously Daffy was a sped-up version of Sylvester. But as important as the voices themselves were, it was Blanc's infusion of character and personality that really "made" them. Regarding "Happy Rabbit", I wonder if it would be worthwhile to see who loaded up all that info originally and quiz them about it. I'm thinking it was not that long ago, and whoever did it might still be a wikipedia editor. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The "Happy Rabbit" article started about a year ago [3] by a red-link user which appears to be the one later named (i.e. spelled correctly) "Mr. Sanitizer"). I seem to recall having some issues with him about which cartoon was Bugsy's true debut, but I think we reached agreement. That was some months ago. Maybe you could quiz him about this issue. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC) (I jposted the above in 3 talk pages, as this discussion is spreading out.)

I just posted a summary of this ongoing discussion at Mrsanitazier's talk page, along with a link to my page. Unfortunately, Mrsanitizer may longer be an active contributor anymore, as he hasn't made an edit since August 25, 2007. I'll be visiting his talk page off and on, if he doesn't respond here. — Cinemaniac 02:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Either I had originally mis-read his name, or else he changed it. In any case, here is some discussion on it [4]. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I just remembered, one of the libraries in my town holds a copy of historian Joe Adamson's 1990 book Bugs Bunny: Fifty Years and Only One Grey Hare. That book will undoubtedly be invaluable for this investigation. I'll try my best to get my hands on it. — Cinemaniac 20:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: Cinemaniac and Greg Ford

Sure, thanks! WAVY 10 Fan 14:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No, no; thank you! — Cinemaniac 20:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Mel Blanc's "Happy Rabbit" Mystery: Solved, Maybe

In a recent discussion [5], Amcaja, Ted Watson, and WAVY 10 Fan agreed to hold off on entirely removing the "Bugs Bunny prototype" Happy Rabbit from relevant articles until my investigation ended. I am now happy to say I think I have some pretty definitive answers concerning the character. But sadly, an attempt to pick off Joe Adamson's Bugs Bunny history has proven fruitless, so it looks like I'm limited to the sources I have on hand. Nevertheless, I have done some thorough research, pulling together much information concerning the wabbit's evolution from the following primary sources:

1. Here's a length excerpt from a 1970 Bob Clampett interview for Funnyworld magazine:

Clampett: During 1937, I became very enthused about the newest trend in feature film comedy, where, in place of comedians in baggy pants, normal-appearing actors were performing hilarious comedy in a more underplayed and sophisticated manner. But, when you least expected it, there would be a broad comedy breakout. These films, which began with My Man Godfrey, were known in the trade as "screwball" comedies. I was looking for a character with which to try and capture the brash but sophisticated spirit of this new comedy style.

Then, in early 1938, one of Leon's units was having story trouble. They had started a story that covered a number of boards and had lots of characters in it. They had a lot of good material, but somehow it wasn't jelling. Leon called me into the office, and asked me if I had any two- or three-character story ideas that were very simple and could go into production quickly. I'm sure he asked the same thing of others. As I recall, there was only a week or so before it had to go to the animators.

So, I looked in my desk drawer, and among my other story sketches, I found this big pile of gags that we didn't use in Porky's Duck Hunt. Now, the second Daffy Duck hunt cartoon was going over big in the theaters, so I went to Leon and I said, "I've got all these great hunting gags left over from the first duck-hunt picture. I could organize them, put in a little new material and have you a story in just a few days." Leon said, "I don't want to give Warners another duck-hunt picture so soon." I said, "What do you object to, another hunting picture?" He said, "No, I just don't want another duck hunt." I said, "Maybe I'll get an idea."

This was on a Friday afternoon. So I took these sketches with me, and driving home I mulled over what else I could do with these gags. Should I switch it into a quail hunt? Or a fox hunt? Or a . . .? And then, recalling some of my 1931 "wabbit" and hunter gags. . . I settled on making him a rabbit.

After dinner, I began putting the duck sketches on my light board, intending to just draw the rabbit doing the duck's actions and gags. But I found that the rabbit simply refused to do the same things that Daffy did. It just didn't feel right. And as my work progressed into the early morning hours the rabbit took on a personality of his own. I had found the character I was looking for. This was the birth of Bugs Bunny.

I worked on the sketches all that weekend, showed them to my folks for their reaction, and delivered them to Leon Monday morning, He chuckled through it, thought it was pretty funny stuff, and assigned it to the Ben Hardaway-Cal Dalton unit to film.

My story timed a little short, so the gag men added some material, such as Bugs spinning his ears and flying through the air like a helicopter, and a few other actions like that, which was off what I was attempting to do. They also added a new end gag. In the pell-mell rush to and through animation, many of the refinements in Bugs's appearance and actions were lost. But, there is one thing that all newly born cartoon stars seem to have in common, and that is a certain indefinable "magic" that endears them to the audience from the moment they first set foot on the screen. This first Bugs Bunny cartoon was a hit.

Barrier: That was Hare-um Scare-um?

Clampett: No, my story was called Porky's Hare Hunt, and came out a full year before Hare-um Scare-um did. In fact, Scare-um wasn't even started until Hare Hunt was already causing talk in the theaters.

The head of Warner Bros.' short-subject sales, Norm Moray, sent us word from the East that people were stopping on their way out of the theater to ask the manager when they could see the next rabbit cartoon. But, there wasn't any! It was then that Leon assigned Bugs to a second hare-hunt story, this time in color. For this film, a model-sheet maker (Charles Thorson) was assigned to try and advance the design of the character. My first sketches were simple, but they were very close to what you saw finally in A Wild Hare. But, instead of progressing Bugs Bunny in the direction his development was headed, the model-sheet maker instead took him back way over into left field, changing him to a dumpy, silly-looking thing which ended up bouncing around the screen a la Daffy, singing how "looney tuney" he was. In a sped voice, yet! This was Hare-um Scare-um. And this was the model sheet that some have mistakenly thought to be "the birth of Bugs Bunny."

Barrier: So, that was the second Bugs Bunny.

Clampett: Yes. So, now, about a month after Hare-um Scare-um was previewed at the studio, Leon assigned the other Merrie Melodies units to do the next rabbit cartoons. Chuck was given the third hare hunt to do, which was his first. It was called Elmer's Candid Camera, in which the rabbit was hunted with camera instead of gun. And as you pointed out, Mike, Chuck used roughly the Hare-um Scare-um likeness.

Tex was assigned the fourth hare-hunt cartoon, which was his first. Tex was a little scared of it, since there was some confusion as to how the rabbit should be handled. Now, after seeing the Daffy-like regression of Bugs in Scare-um, I decided to stay close to all future storyboard development, and worked with Tex in order to help get Bugs back on the track to what I had envisioned in the first story sketches. This film, A Wild Hare, was the first with the more sophisticated and underplayed treatment that I had hoped to see. And it was the first cartoon in which we used Elmer's "wabbit" voice, and Bugs Bunny's famous catch-line, "Ehhh, what's up, doc?" A Wild Hare was nominated for an Oscar, and Bugs Bunny was on his way up the ladder. He made it to the top five years later; when we were voted the No. 1 short.

Barrier: Was there any particular effort to keep the same character from going in divergent directions in different directors' cartoons?

Clampett: Yes. For example, I talked to Tex and then went to Leon and initiated model sheets of Bugs that would really give everybody something to work from. Leon okayed my using whoever I needed to work out a final model sheet. I had excellent help from several artists but the most important role, that of finalizing these sheets, was that of Robert Givens, and resulted in the first truly definitive set of model sheets. They were printed up, and given out to the entire studio.

As I and other users and editors have noted before, some exaggerations of Clampett's have been discovered since the initial publication of this interview, but most historians believe it to be, in most cases, generally accurate. Most strikingly, perhaps, is that there's no mention of these "Bugses" as "Happy Rabbit".

2. Here's another long excerpt from a similar Chuck Jones interview of 1970:

Barrier: Something I've often wondered is how the characters were parceled out at Warner's—that is, who decided who was to make so many Bugs Bunny cartoons, and Daffy Duck cartoons, and so on, and as a corollary to that, whether the directors tried to co-ordinate their versions of the same characters.

Jones: The characters tended to be different in different directors' cartoons, a little bit, but we also tended to learn from one another. Actually, there was a troika situation with the three directors—Friz Freleng, Bob McKimson and me—running parallel. We were called directors, but we were really producer-directors, because we had absolute control over our material. We had to do a certain number of cartoons with basic characters like Bugs Bunny, but we also had specialized characters that nobody else used. For example, Friz used Yosemite Sam and Sylvester; I occasionally used Sylvester with Porky Pig, but he wasn't really the same cat. He was a well-drawn cat, and I enjoyed working with him. I did all the Road Runners and Pepe le Pews until I left Warner's. So far as allocation was concerned, the distributing organization in New York would simply tell us how many Bugs Bunnys they wanted in a given year, usually six or eight, which would mean that each director would end up with two or three Bugs Bunnys a year. You had to keep an eye out for good Bugs Bunny ideas.

There were certain characters who evolved slowly, like Bugs Bunny and Porky Pig. Tex Avery, I think, must be given the basic credit for the character of Bugs Bunny, although there were a few Bugs Bunnys made before Tex's first Bugs Bunny. But Tex was the first to have him say, "What's up, doc?" and give him what you might call controlled insanity, as opposed to wild insanity. Originally, Bugs was very much like Daffy.

Barrier: I've hard that you consider the rabbit in your Prest-O Change-O (1939) the ancestor of Bugs.

Jones: That was one of them. It was made before A Wild Hare (1940), Tex's first Bugs Bunny, but A Wild Hare really set Bugs' personality.

Barrier: You had a cartoon called Elmer's Pet Rabbit (1940), which was released several months after A Wild Hare. It seems to be the first cartoon in which Bugs is identified by name. The Bugs in that cartoon is like the rabbit in your Elmer's Candid Camera, which was released early in 1940, and Hardaway and Dalton's Hare-um Scare-um, which was released in 1939. Both came before A Wild Hare.

Jones: I'm not sure of the chronology, but the Bugs Bunny personality has to be started with A Wild Hare. That and two or three Tex Avery cartoons after that really made Bugs what he was.

Jones says Tex Avery should be credited with Bugs Bunny's creation, and that's something I'd concur with—the other "Bugses" are not as self-evidently sane as the Bugs Bunny we know today. (One cav-e-at, though, is that Jones, holding Schlesinger in contempt, stated that Daffy's and Sylvester's lisps were based on Schlesinger; but Clampett, Avery, and Blanc have helped confirm that that was not the case.) One thing particulary stuck out to me while reading over his interview again: There, again, was no mention of "Happy Rabbit".

3. Michael Barrier himself reports in his book Hollywood Cartoons, that "Tex Avery once expressed wonder that Disney didn't sue WB for copyright infringement since Bugs Bunny so closely resembled Max Hare, the star of Disney's Silly Symphony, Tortoise and the Hare." Neither Avery nor Barrier say anything of "Happy Rabbit" there... Barrier further elaborated on his blog:

It seems that the beloved bunny really may have dodged a bullet. This from the Motion Picture Academy's Margaret Herrick Library:

On November 18, 1949, Gunther Lessing, Disney's legal counsel, wrote to Art Arthur, executive secretary of the Motion Picture Industry Council, to thank him for sending a clipping of a piece on character merchandising that mentioned Bugs Bunny repeatedly, and Disney not at all.

"The peculiar circumstance," Lessing wrote, "is the fact that 'Bugs Bunny,' according to our contention, is an absolute infringement of our character, 'Max Hare.' Some time ago [Leon] Schlesinger wrote us a nasty letter claiming that we were infringing his 'Bugs Bunny.' Walt and I decided that we might as well live and let live notwithstanding the fact that 'Max Hare' preceded 'Bugs Bunny' by more than five or six years. So we gave Schlesinger a license to use his character. I wrote the letter of transmittal and it so formally related opposition that Schlesinger never replied. However he did retain the license agreement."

Was Schlesinger joking when he complained about Max Hare? Did Disney, or more likely Lessing, simply not get it? Harry Tytle writes in his memoir One of "Walt's Boys" of hearing that "Walt kiddingly sent a letter authorizing Warners to use the character." That sounds believable. It's Lessing's letter that sounds truly strange.

4. And finally, as I said before, Friz Freleng made no mention of Happy Rabbit in his 1975 Camera Three interview (conducted by John Canemaker and Greg Ford). He said, "Bugs Bunny started off as a rabbit outwitting a hunter in Tex Avery's A Wild Hare. I'm talking about the rabbit that finally ended up being the popular rabbit. There were Bugs Bunnys prior to that, but they weren't really the same character. They were more like Daffy Duck in a rabbit suit."

I think it's safe to say, from all the research I've gathered, that the general consensus by many editors is correct; "Happy Rabbit" was a later fabrication made by Mel Blanc during his later years. Let's admit: Mel Blanc had wonderful talent—talent that was put to very good use by the WB and H-B Studios—but even he had his faults.

Still, I don't think we should really do anything until someone comes up with a reference to Joe Adamson's Bugs Bunny: Fifty Years and Only One Grey Hare. That would be the definitive answer, I have no doubt, if Adamson's book debunks it. Still, that is entirely up to you more experienced editors. Let me just say that, where animation history is concerned, there's always something new to learn, and it's what ultimately makes it, in the end, such an enormous pleasure. — Cinemaniac 02:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent research. You've just about put "Happy Rabbit" to rest. I think I've got the Adamson book somewhere, but I am not in position to check it at present. Meanwhile, can you cite Blanc's exact words in reference to "Happy Rabbit"? If nothing else, it would be a pre-emptive service to state in the article that Blanc is the only known user of that term. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Blanc's exact words were cited in an interview linked in to the talk page of the now-defunct Happy Rabbit article. If some administrator still has access to that, then they can be obtained. I must advise caution in putting so much weight on Joe Adamson's work, however, given his Tex Avery: King of Cartoons, De Capo Press, 1975. After an opening passage in which he criticized and categorized major errors that used to be found in books on animated films (they can be found in all film and television reference books/studies, and that sadly continues to this day), he made several of his own. The worst was probably stating that during Avery's temporary leave of absence from the MGM cartoon studio in the early 1950s, Dick Lundy directed several Droopy cartoons, including Cabellero Droopy. The reality is that the one cited was the only Droopy short Lundy ever directed. I would consider Adamson giving Crazy Mixed-Up Pup a release date incompatible with the year of its Oscar nomination not much better (if it didn't play in an L.A. theater--the criterion for determining the year of Oscar eligibility--until after the first of the calendar year following its general release [and the reverse is what usually happens], he should have known of the seeming contradiction and added a parenthetical explanation). -- Ted Watson (talk) 21:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The Happy Rabbit page was thankfully only redirected, not deleted. See if you can find it in the history: [6] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up concerning Joe Adamson's book. Regarding Happy Rabbit: I didn't have much luck in finding the exact words Mel Blanc said concerning the character in the old article itself; and when I clicked on the hyperlink to the Mel Blanc interview, it appears that the webpage no longer exists. But in the archived "Happy Rabbit" article [7] itself, all I could find was this:

"Nobody knew the name of the Bugs Bunny prototype, until voice actor Mel Blanc talked about the origins of the character in a 1970s interview. … Most people believe Happy Rabbit is the prototypical Bugs Bunny, due to Bugs's voice in "Elmer's Pet Rabbit" which is the voice Happy Rabbit had in "Elmer's Candid Camera". They are both voiced by Mel Blanc."

Still… not good enough! But I hope you have better luck than I. — Cinemaniac (talk) 23:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe there will be something about it in Blanc's biography. In a few days I'll be in position to check on it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Could the link to the Blanc article/quote on the Happy Rabbit article's talk page not work because that is no longer a current page, that is, archiving disconnects external links? It was the only EL there, and I have no idea of how to find an archived copy of any "redirected" article to try another one to check the theory. Anyway, I will go back to changing "Happy Rabbit" to the "Bugs Bunny prototype" where ever I come across it. Ted Watson (talk) 20:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

That was certainly possible, but when I simply tried to go to the web page itself (without the use of a hyperlink), my screen read: "The page you are trying to reach cannot be displayed." Either there's simply a problem on the page not permitting my computer to download it, or the page simply no longer exists.

About "Happy Rabbit": As far as that "character" is concerned, I think it'd be fine if you went back to changing mentions about him to "the Bugs Bunny prototype" instead. As far as our investigation is concerned, I believe we've basically proven (through proper and solid citation, of course) that "Happy Rabbit" was not the name of the pre-1940 Bugses. As many fellow Wikipedians have suggested, that name was a long-after-the-fact "fabrication" by Mel Blanc, and I'm inclined to agree.

Keeping in mind what you said about Joe Adamson's Tex Avery biography, I will still try to find out if his 1990 Bugs Bunny work is being held in any of the libraries in my town. With any luck I'll have it in my hands shortly after I return to wikipedia after Thanksgiving vacation, and we'll know then if that historian debunks it or not; just to make sure, you know?

Baseball Bugs made an interesting suggestion, however: "Perhaps instead of rubbing out references to 'Happy Rabbit', it might be better to reinstate him, with the cave-at that apparently no one, outside of Blanc, used this name for him, and that it serves only as a time-frame reference." Whadaya say, Ted? — Cinemaniac (talk) 02:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that the acknowledgement of Blanc's use of the name "Happy Rabbit" would probably be best left to the prototype section of Bugs' article, and out of those of the various 'toons that the prototype appears in and of those people who worked on them--Mel himself excluded, come to think of it! And I guess bypassing the link to the article with the Blanc quote and not getting it pretty much puts the problem at the other end, all right. Well, I was trying, anyway. Ted Watson (talk) 20:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Greg Ford: RE

No problem. If you need help with anything, just ring a bell on my talk page. Agtax ^{Call box |} 05:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Replied there. — Cinemaniac (talk) 05:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

It's quite interesting. I'm still looking into that about Greg Ford. Agtax (talk) 05:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you know his DOB yet? Agtax (talk) 05:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Responded there. -- Cinemaniac (talk) 05:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

So you can create articles without an administrator's permission? Just need to know, because I created one a while back. Agtax (talk) 05:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Replied there. — Cinemaniac 21:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can create articles for Warner Bros. shorts. Agtax (talk) 21:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Responded there. — Cinemaniac (talk) 21:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

It don't have to be deleted. I created Satan's Waitin' 6 months ago, and it wasn't deleted. Agtax (talk) 22:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Replied there (again). — Cinemaniac (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

How big a fan are you with Looney Tunes? Agtax (talk) 22:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I see that there needs to be more LT & MM articles created. Agtax (talk) 22:27, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

So you're going to create a Wiki-project group? Agtax (talk) 22:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Joined up. Agtax (talk) 22:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Replied there. — Cinemaniac (talk) 00:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure thing. Agtax (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

How old are you? Agtax (talk) 04:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Talk: Ed, Edd n Eddy

Tell that to the idiot IP editors who insist on changing this several times daily. Maybe you should put this page on your watchlist, and help with deleting the fancruft. I face it ongoingly. The IPs have no concept of "discuss". -- Elaich ^talk 05:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I used to be an IP editor too, of course (I used three IP Addresses, although the one I used most often was 164.58.96.126). What separated me from most of them was that I actually tried to assess things logically, bringing up valid arguments only when I could be backed up by a reliable source. See here for a rather odd discussion I (JS) had with another IP editor over Open Season. In any case, I'll help you guys out on that page. — Cinemaniac (talk) 14:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's not forget this: There are some good IP editors, too. — Cinemaniac (talk) 20:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Who named the bunny "Bugs"?

In my revision work restricting "Happy Rabbit" to being just Mel Blanc's decades-later claim with no corroboration, I noticed a contradiction that I thought you just might be able to straighten out. In the article on Bugs Bunny, it is stated that the man who drew a model sheet of a rabbit character for Ben "Bugs" Hardaway and identified it as "Bugs' bunny" was Gil Turner, and I added his name to Ben's article when I removed Happy from it. However, the article for Charlie Thorson describes him, "as the man who designed and named Bugs Bunny...." I find it highly implausible to interpret this as anything other than an attribution of that model sheet and notation to him. So, was it Turner or Thorson? We need to get that straight or not attribute it to any specific person, as had been the case in the Hardaway article until I took the Turner reference in the character's at face value. Ted Watson (talk) 16:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

My gut says Charlie Thorson, for some reason, but in a few days I should be able to check the books I have concerning the subject. — Cinemaniac (talk) 20:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Great! I'll wait patiently but anxiously. Ted Watson (talk) 22:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks like Baseball Bugs more than beat me to it [8]. But I think I'll expand a bit on both of your postings concerning Charlie Thorson. I just took a look at Michael Barrier's Hollywood Cartoons: American Animation in Its Golden Age. On page 360, he reports:

"[In Hare-um Scare-um], the rabbit's appearance had changed and he had a name, both thanks to Charles Thorson, a former Disney story-sketch artist who had joined the Schlesinger staff as a character designer in 1938. When Thorson made the model sheet of the rabbit character in different poses for Hare-um Scare-um, he labeled it "Bug's [sic] Bunny" because he had drawn the model sheet for Bugs Hardaway. The name was picked up and used in publicity for Hare-um Scare-um, but with a corrected spelling: Bugs Bunny"

… And, as they say, the rest is history.  :) — Cinemaniac (talk) 03:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Good enough for me. I'll eliminate the credit to Turner right away. Ted Watson (talk) 21:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Some book notes

OK, I am back home and can check some books. I'll do this piecemeal...

Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies, by Beck Friedwald, 1989

• Bugs and his predecessors are grouped under Bugs Bunny in the index. Some comments are from the index, some from the cartoon articles.
• Porky's Hare Hunt (1938) - "Prenatal Hardaway / Dalton"
• Hare-um Scare-um (1939) - ditto - points out that this character anticipates Woody Woodpecker, another Hardaway creation, as much as it does Bugs
• Prest-o Change-o (1939), a Jones cartoon, also involved a wacky wabbit, but is not listed under Bugs in the index.
• Elmer's Candid Camera (1940) - "Formative Jones" - "not quite the Bugs Bunny to come, but close"
• A Wild Hare (1940) - "Avery's version which evolved into the Bugs Bunny we all know and love." - "Solidified the personalities of Bugs and Elmer and became the blueprint for their future encounters."
• Elmer's Pet Rabbit (1941) - "Introduced as Bugs Bunny for the first time, but with a different voice." Specifically, though they don't say this, the voice used in Elmer's Candid Camera, the "country bumpkin" instead of the "wise guy" of A Wild Hare. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That's not all Folks!, by Mel Blanc and Philip Bashe, 1988

The book discusses "Happy Rabbit" on p.85-86. Let's keep in mind that it was co-written, so it might not be fair to totally blame Mel Blanc for this one. However, the book has Blanc stating that the rabbit had already been dubbed "Happy Rabbit", that he didn't think much of that name, and suggested to Leon Schlesinger that the rabbit be renamed for the man who had drawn him, Ben "Bugs" Hardaway, except as the alliterative Bugs Bunny, not Bugs Rabbit. He also says he came up with this name while reading the script for Porky's Hare Hunt. That was the first cartoon with the primordial Bugs, of course. Make of all that what you will. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Bugs Bunny: Fifty Years and Only One Grey Hare', by Joe Adamson, 1990

The origins of "The Rabbit", as they call him, start on p.51. Nothing about "Happy Rabbit", and a different story than Blanc's: "When Bugs Hardaway decided to make Porky's Hare Hunt all over again with a different hunter and a rabbit, he went to Max Hare's designer, Charlie Thorson, now working at Schlesinger's, and asked him to design him a new model sheet. It came back, labeled "Bugs' Bunny", and the rabbit, now one year old, was turned prematurely grey [instead of white]. Then Hardaway went to work on the cartoon he called Hare-um Scare-um, giving his rabbit the same voice and the same kinds of gags as before..." The author goes on to point out that although the name had been assigned, this wasn't really the Bugs we know, and that McKimson, Freleng and others (including Bob Givens, "who designed Bugs and Elmer for A Wild Hare") agreed with that and really didn't consider the predecessors as constituting an "evolution", but more like false starts. Givens: "Bugs isn't Hardaway's bunny. Tex [Avery] gave it the personality and Mel gave it the voice, and that was it." As they point out, A Wild Hare was again kind of a rehash of the other rabbit hunting pictures, except this time they got it right. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Excellent research! Now these sources can be cited and the knowledge of Wikipedia's users can grow. By the way, I found a slight error in one of the quotes from Joe Adamson's work (see above [9]). But again, nice work.  :) — Cinemaniac (talk) 03:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the quote was accurate. But the author, like me, didn't pay enough attention to the style sheet. Its actual wording and punctuation were: "Bug's" Bunny. Keep in mind that in those days, double-quote marks were often used around nicknames, even when the real name wasn't used. Nowadays we would say either Ben "Bugs" Hardaway, or just Bugs Hardaway without the quotes. (Another example: George "Babe" Ruth, whom we call Babe Ruth nowadays, was called "Babe" Ruth in the press most of the time, with or without the George part.) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of model sheets... Here's a link to an enjoyable site often devoted to such [10], the model sheets posted there ranging from Bugs Bunny to Screwy Squirrel. Also, here's an archived post concerning Bugs Bunny's evolution (complete with model sheets) at John K's blog [11]. Enjoy! — Cinemaniac (talk) 20:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I realise I'm a little late in posting this, but I haven't checked my e-mail for awhile. Anyway, as I promised I would, I e-mailed animation historian Jerry Beck the following message, dated November 21, 2007, 5:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time:

To: Mr. Beck,

A few animation fans and I are currently undergoing an "investigation" of sorts concerning the character of "Happy Rabbit". Happy Rabbit, as you probably already know, was the name Mel Blanc gave to the prototypical Bugs Bunnys seen before A Wild Hare (1940). But, after doing some research of our own, we couldn't find any references to Happy Rabbit in the interviews and memoirs of the other key people at Termite Terrace. The absence of any mention of "Happy Rabbit" is leading us to believe that Blanc simply made up the name in his later years. Do you have any information that you could give that would help us out in this investigation?

And it looks like he did! Here is his response in full:

You are correct that Blanc made this up. Much in his bio is imaginary shorthand to explain things in layman terms - but they are not facts.

There it is—in black and white! Not only has primary and secondary research confirmed our thoughts about this "Happy Rabbit" nonsense, but also a well-known authority on animation! Thus, our investigation can finally conclude. CONCLUSION: "'Happy Rabbit' = Mel Blanc's fantasy." CASE CLOSED. :) -- Cinemaniac 04:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Another Idea

What do you think of making an article about Looney Tunes television broadcasting over the years, not the theatical ones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agtaz (talk • contribs) 01:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

That would cover a lot of ground, given how many local kiddie shows telecast the cartoons in the 50s and 60s. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, well. Baseball Bugs, I remember you. Agtaz (talk) 03:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Fondly, I assume. 0:) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad idea; I'll see what I can do. I've taken a lot of notes concerning the Looney Tunes TV history at this site. And of course, no such article could be complete without references to Jerry Beck's Looney Tunes: The Ultimate Visual Guide. (Aw no, another book I don't have!)

The only negative virtue I can think of now is...well, as has been noted, that would cover a lot of ground. Say, you cover a lot of ground yourself. You better beat it; I hear they're gonna tear you down and build an office building where you're standing. You can leave in a taxi. If that's not good enough, you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and huff. Y'know, you haven't stopped talking since I came back. You must've been injected with a phonograph needle. =) — Cinemaniac (talk) 14:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

'At's-a good. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll consult my lawyer. And if he advises me to do it... I'll get a new lawyer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've done some research. And here's a partial list of Looney Tunes-related television programming from the last 50-or-so years:

• The Bugs Bunny Show

• The Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Hour
• The Bugs Bunny & Tweety Show

• ToonHeads
• The Tex Avery Show
• The Bob Clampett Show
• The Sylvester and Tweety Mysteries
• Tiny Toon Adventures
• Baby Looney Tunes
• Duck Dodgers
• Loonatics Unleashed
• Looney Tunes on Nickelodeon
• The Bugs and Daffy Show —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agtaz (talk • contribs) 07:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

While there are probably more Wikipedia articles concerning the Looney Tunes TV history, I've not been able to track them down. In any case, if there's a movement to create an article concerning the Looney Tunes television broadcast history, I'm up for the task. Even so, the page will definitely need more input than all three of us can provide, so I'm going to contact a few other Wikipedia:Wikiproject Television/Wikipedia:WikiProject American Animation participants and solicit their suggestions and advice. An article like this is long overdue, I've been thinking, and I certainly hope that it can be made. — Cinemaniac (talk) 20:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I did forget a few other things, like the various Looney Tune television compilation specials. — Cinemaniac 00:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Looney Tunes on TV: Think that's a good idea; but I don't really know of anything at this time that has not been covered elsewhere. I've got finals next week and will be editing very sporadically between Sunday and Wednesday night. Probably can help more after that point. WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The dreaded end-of-semester exams! AGONY! AGONY! I know whatcha mean; I've got a lot of finals fast approaching, too. Not until after December 22 will my edits come in greater frequency. Until then, you should expect most of my edits to be during the weekends, or (occasionally) on weekday mornings. — Cinemaniac 20:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's an interesting thought, as relayed by Collectonian just about ten minutes ago: "I'm curious as to why that can not go in the main Looney Tunes article? It would certainly be appropriate and give the article a boost." Any ideas, folks? — Cinemaniac (talk) 19:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite, but, even though I've been watching Looney Tunes on TV all my life, I don't think I know enough about them to make any real contribution. -- Elaich ^talk 21:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That's okay; thanks for answering anyway! — Cinemaniac (talk) 22:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Expanding on a previous comment, Collectonian provides this from her talk page: "Considering I AfDed the Golden Collections, there really isn't anything I could add. I'd rather see such information in the main Looney Tunes article, but that view is unlikely to be shared."

This from Thomprod, at 00:09, December 9, 2007: "Since the Looney Tunes were shorts shown in cinemas and not originally produced for television, I'm not sure it's notable enough for an article on their broadcast history."

Ah well, at least we tried!  :) — Cinemaniac (talk) 19:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess no. I was just thinking out loud. Agtaz (talk 22:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about it; Wikipedia, in order to grow, needs more ideas like the one you proposed. I'm just surprised that so many people actually responded! In any case, keep up the good work, Agtaz!  ;) — Cinemaniac (talk) 22:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It also brought to my attention the work needed to be done on the various Looney Tunes television-related articles, like The Porky Pig Show. I'll be expanding on those articles from now on. — Cinemaniac (talk) 23:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I definitely like the idea and would certainly help, but as my tardy response and lack of recent edits sadly show; I, too, am busy with real life at the moment. I'll be glad to help when I can, though. Chickenmonkey (talk) 18:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Nice to see you back! I just got through with a few mind-boggling exams, and I'll have more tomorrow, so I'll be busy until the weekend truly arrives. Sorry you weren't able to answer when the discussion was active, but I'm just glad to see you back again! — Cinemaniac (talk) 20:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Wryspy also provided this amusing but all-true comment: "Figuring out their broadcast history would be a nightmare. They used to be syndicated and included in all kinds of programs. Public domain cartoons pop up all over the place." — Cinemaniac (talk) 04:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: Elmer Fudd and Rabbit Stew

Actually, I meant my phrasing there to suggest that I had some doubt about Joe Adamson's claim of a version with Elmer "rotoscoped" (his word) over the "pickinniny" (ditto). However, the same gag about the cliff, the hollow log, and Bugs pushing said log around, IS in Heckling Hare. I admit to being wrong to say "a dog" as it was a group of hunting hounds; after the bunny dispenses of them early on via the log gag, a big and dumb straggler walks up and is Bugs' nemesis for the rest of the short. The animation of at least Bugs-pushing-the-log in Clampett's Snooze looks like the same stuff to me. I've seen Stew only once, c. 2000, and as I was in shock that it was being shown at all, won't dispute with you that the same gag was utilized there as well. Avery made both of them, after all. Ted Watson (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Really? I have The Heckling Hare here on DVD—via the Looney Tunes Golden Collection: Volume 2—and I don't recall the same gag being used. The cartoon starts out with Willoughby the Dog (Bugs's hound adversary in this short) sniffing on the ground and follwing Bugs's footprints; he's solo throughout the entire cartoon, and no other hounds appear. Maybe the current print is not the way it was when it was initially released? After all, the print was reportedly cut down.

While we're on this subject, considering that you have the Tex Avery bio, I hope you wouldn't mind my asking help in figuring something out. According to the Hollywood Reporter, Avery walked out of the studio to protest Leon Schlesinger's order that 40 feet be cut from "a recently completed Bugs Bunny cartoon," presumably The Heckling Hare. Apparently, according to Greg Ford, Bugs and Willoughby originally took three more long falls after the first one, with the cartoon finally coming to an end during the third fall. The reason those falls were cut out was, according to Ford, because Bugs, immediately before the third fall, says: "Hold on to your hats, folks! Here we go again!" The gag was, at the time, a common risque radio joke, probably something the Warner execs didn't want Bugs associated with. However, I don't recall Tex Avery mentioning that incident. Leonard Maltin reports that Avery walked out because Leon didn't want to expand on his idea of having real animals speaking witty dialogue with animated mouths (something that Avery eventually did do, later, for Paramount).

Do you know which version of events caused Tex Avery's suspension, and later hiring by MGM? — Cinemaniac (talk) 00:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe it was Tex's other "Willoughby" short (he was the straggler I mentioned), Of Fox and Hounds, with a fox instead of Bugs, although that sure doesn't sound right to me. Does "Heckling" have Bugs wearing a fox suit? Or is there another Avery/Bugs/Willoughby short not in Tex's Wiki-filmography? As for the other, Adamson's book--not really a bio, incidentally, but more a study of Avery's work--says that Leon interpreted "Heckling" as ending with Bugs falling to his death, to which he objected. Joe does not indicate more than one fall being cut. But as I said elsewhere, he makes just enough mistakes that anything unsubstantiated must be taken with a grain of salt. I sadly no longer have my copy (I loved it, and went through it so many times that such concepts remain quite clear in my memory), so can't check it for that Willoughby short, to be completely honest. Wish I did. Ted Watson (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any other Willoughby film other than the two mentioned, save Bob Clampett's The Hep Cat (which featured, according to some, Sylvester the cat's prototype, although the resemblence—in appearance as well as voice—is slight at best). I do recall, though, a Bugs Bunny short that features him in a fox suit; however, it's been admittedly years since I've seen it, and from what images are clear in my mind, it wasn't one of Avery's films. In fact, I think it was either a Bob McKimson or Friz Freleng short—obviously made some time after Avery left Warner's. I'll see what other information I can find about that short, though.

In regards to Heckling Hare, I listened to Greg Ford's DVD audio commentary for that cartoon the other day. Towards the end of it he says that he and another cartoon editor—I think, Rick Gere—are searching through the vaults of the studio for the allegedly "cut footage" of the cliff falls. That commentary was recorded in 2004, so I'm not sure if any such print has been discovered yet. Oh, well, we can certainly hope. . .

The Wikipedia page for Heckling Hare reports similar information regarding the ending; however, no citation was given. It points out, though, that the allegedly-controversial line "Hold on to your hats, folks, here we go again!" had already been included in an earlier Tex Avery film, Daffy Duck and Egghead (1938). Such information makes me wonder if this is just an urban myth, of sorts, regarding Avery's historic move from Warner to MGM. I'll probably require help from animation's greatest scholars to answer that inquiry. — Cinemaniac (talk) 22:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I must insist that I've seen the log-at-the-cliff gag done with a group of hunting dogs, as well as with one human hunter, but I concede the remaining dog might not have been Willoughby. In fact, it may have been the "Mad Russian" dog in Clampett's Hare Ribbin', who looks like Will. The more I think about the Bugs-in-fox-suit short, I believe the dog was a dumb Saint Bernard who sounded like Of Mice and Men's Lenny ("Which way did he go, George, which way did he go?"). My mistake completely, and my apologies. 75.91.205.184 (talk) 19:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC) OOPS! Didn't notice that the system inexplicably failed to "remember me'. Sorry again. Ted Watson (talk) 20:40, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I've got a little bit of time before I have to dive back into studying, so I'll answer your post. Truth of the matter is, there were quite a few Willoughby-esque dogs that appeared in the Warner cartoons. For example, there's one in Bob Clampett's An Itch in Time, and yet another in Friz Frelengs's Hare Force; the latter, however, is the only one of the two to feature a dog with both a similar intellect and voice as Willoughby.

As I said in a previous discussion, I don't yet have the fifth Looney Tunes Golden Collection DVD—which includes Hare Ribbin' and its various alternate endings—but I hope to have it in my hands by Christmastime, so that I can confirm your thoughts.

Speaking of the Looney Tunes DVD, Jerry Beck has informed me that the Looney Tunes Golden Collection: Volume 5 made #5 on the list of the "Top Ten DVD Releases of the Year" in last week's issue of TIME magazine. Beck also says that the first Golden Collection DVD made #1 on the same list back in 2003. Cheers! — Cinemaniac (talk) 22:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

More Looney Tunes Characters

Yep, there are few LT characters without articles, such as Prissy the hen, JP Cubish (Daffy's antagonist from Quackbusters), and Colonel Rimfire (Cool Cat's main antagonist). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agtaz (talk • contribs) 20:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll be busy throughout the week—with exams and all—but I should be back and active by the weekend. Until then, have a safe and merry Christmas, everybody! — Cinemaniac (talk) 22:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, my exams are over now, so I'll be actively contributing again. What exactly do you suggest we do? I've heard of similar thoughts to create more LT character articles, but some other editors have said that such articles would A) be extremely short, or B) become saturated by speculation and fancruft. — Cinemaniac (talk) 04:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Man, it's like when everytime I'm trying to do something good, people judge. Agtax 04:31, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to discourage, and I hope that you didn't think I was trying to do so. I was simply communicating what other editors had said before. That doesn't necessarily mean consensus was reached, and that certainly doesn't mean you should stop trying to do The Right Thing. I think that we should still pursue giving these more obscure characters their own articles—just keeping these earlier advisings in mind. . . — Cinemaniac (talk) 04:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thats what I'm saying, obscure characters having their own articles. Agtax 04:43, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

And that's a wonderful idea! Here are two weblinks [12] over "obscure" and "rare" Warner cartoons that should prove helpful in this regard. [13] (I especially like the tidbit concerning Daffy Duck's Fantastic Island!) — Cinemaniac (talk) 04:51, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I haven't been to that site in years, but it sounds like a good idea. Agtax 04:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Currently—and I'm sure you know this already—Prissy Hen is a redirect to Foghorn Leghorn, Colonel Rimfire is a redirect to Cool Cat, and JP Cubish warrants no successful search results, and is not a redirect to Daffy Duck's Quackbusters. I'll help out in the creation and expansion of these articles (and many others) when I can.

And as an aside: I scored 100% on each and every exam! Hallelujah! — Cinemaniac (talk) 05:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I also want to personally express my appreciation on your string of corrective edits to the Greg Ford article. Not too many others have made any substantial edits to that article since its creation nearly two months ago, but then again, what else should I expect? In any case, thank you again. :) — Cinemaniac (talk) 05:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Prissy, there was an article of Prissy on Forghorn Leghorn's article, but it was more likely that some vandal messed the page up a long time ago. Agtax 05:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

re: Welcome back.

Thanks. Seems I just can't stay away from here for too long; it's the perfectionist in me, I guess ;). --FuriousFreddy (talk) 04:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

He's working furiously. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

WB cartoon website

I think I might have told you about a website that was a good resource for details about the WB cartoons. I'm not seeing it offhand in your history here. But, alas, the last time I checked, that site was no longer online. The fleeting nature of websites. :( Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you did tell me about that website, and it can still be found (in cached form, no doubt) here. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 20:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey-hey! It's there. Maybe the server was down or something. I'll check on it some more when I can get back to my home PC. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Looney Tunes on Kids WB

I was just looking over how the Bugs Bunny Show article was expanded. What do you think about having an article about the Looney Tunes that aired on Kids WB? Agtax 02:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Much of the credit for the excellent expansion of The Bugs Bunny Show page must go to Furious Freddy; props to him! And I don't think that's a bad idea at all! Unfortunately, most of my Wiki-time will be, for a while, devoted to bringing Duck Soup and Princess Leia Organa to GA status, but I'll certainly do my best to help you out! — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 02:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that you've mentioned it, there can be an article called Looney Tunes on television or Looney Tunes on Kids WB!. Agtax 03:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to be specific, the latter would be the best title to use. However, if we do create such an article, should we include Loonatics Unleashed? It's not exactly the Looney Tunes, even though the characters on the show are based on them. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 03:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Nah, that show isn't nothing! We're talking about the real Looney Tunes shows, like Bugs N' Daffy, The Daffy Duck Show, Looney Tunes on Nickelodeon, etc. Agtax 04:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, okay! That's what I was hoping. BTW, if we're going to start an article just over the various mainstream Looney Tunes television programming, then the former title would be better, since I don't think Looney Tunes on Nickelodeon ever aired on The WB!. ;-) And I sincerely hope you enjoy your barnstar. :) — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 04:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I do enjoy it. Your Wiki partnership is greatly appriciated. Agtax 04:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Looney Tunes: Back in Action

I'm currently trying to cleanup this article and add citations, but I think the cultural references list may be a little too long, if not, at the very least, vastly uncited. I realize that you're the one who really expanded this article back in its early stub days, so I thought that you might be able to provide some assistance concerning this matter. Best wishes! — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 16:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I created that list (actually, the article itself) back when I was young and foolish, and had not realized the critical need for reliable sourcing of article material. It's occasionally eaten at me that I should hit the libraries and drum up sources for this data. I'm sure some of this has been independently documented. But I've currently cut way back on my Wikipedia work, and do not want to stand in the way of conscientious efforts to fix such problems. I recommend you remove everything you or someone else can't readily find a citation for, and will support you on the talk page if anyone complains. (After all, we can always add it back — if desirable — if we find sources later.)

I now believe that unsourced cultural references are a plague, allowing us Wikipedians to inject our own personal opinions, comparisons, and other original research into articles that often overwhelm the sourced, verifiable material that we strive for here. I'm rather embarrassed that I'd done such a lopsided job in creating this article. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to fix this mess. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

With that in mind, I'll do my best to cite some of this information, and remove what else looks personal opinion and original research. Thanks for answering my posting and giving me your support. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 20:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I've found mention of much, if not all, of these cultural references in the many reviews of the film that I've read at Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic; as time goes by, I'll do a massive rewrite of both the "Reception" section and the "Cultural references" section. I congratulate you for being able to catalogue all of this information, as it must have been a truly daunting task. I must admit, when I first saw the film about a year after its release—I bought the DVD—I can recall thinking, from the first few minutes till the end of the film, "Hey, I remember that!", but then losing it almost immediately when I tried to remember the next one that popped up just seconds later. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 22:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It's nothing more than combining a mind preoccupied with cultural riffing (à la Mystery Science Theater 3000), a DVD player with pause and slow-motion controls, and too much free time. You're doing the real work of getting reliable sources. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

While certain scenes like that Psycho "shower scene" spoof and the opening Rabbit Fire-like sequence are rather obvious, other riffs like the momentary reprisal of the Gremlins theme are not so obvious. And every critic has rightly praised the Louvre scene as a stylistically zany and original endeavor. In any case, the citations are coming together. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 04:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

While I believe I added most of what's there, to be fair, someone else contributed the Gremlins reference. But I appreciate the compliment. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 05:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry—a lot of critics have admitted that they let a lot of the riffs slip by them, and I certainly didn't catch all of 'em. This film really makes you have to keep your eye out for them, although others have stated that it's all just a big blur. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 05:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: Barnstar

Thank you very much for the Barnstar. I have noticed these on some other editors' talk pages, and am quite honored to have received one myself. Again, thank you. Ted Watson (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome! You've made some excellent contributions to many articles, and you're particularly skillful at helping me settle some disputes. I'd say you deserved it! :^) — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 21:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW, have you ever considered becoming a member of the American Animation Wikiproject? I'm sure you'd be a big help to the project. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 21:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Charlie Dog unmerge

Found your message. Sorry, but I don't know anything about the actual mechanisms for merging and unmerging articles. On the other hand, I've just encountered a problem that I posted a note concerning it on the talk page for the first title on which it happened, Gold Diggers of '49. I tried to make an ext. link to the IMDb page for that cartoon, but the result was a "Title search" page, similar to a Wiki disambig. page. Studied everything very closely, but couldn't find anything wrong in what I did--had the one for Thugs with Dirty Mugs on an adjacent tab for a guide--and this happened with several other Avery shorts, while a number of others worked just fine. In fact, I found a few titles that had one but set up differently, and when I tried to redo the first one I found, I got that problem and so left the others as they were. Any ideas? Ted Watson (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the related IMDb external link to the Gold Diggers of '49 article. I'm not sure exactly what caused you to encounter such a problem, since when I typed the full title into the "go" box and pressed "Enter", I was taken straight to that page. I decided to make said EL a bare-boned link, instead of using the standard IMDb profile template. Hope that helps. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 22:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the IMDb's "Go" box worked fine for me too, which I did say on the post on "Diggers"'s talk page, but forgot to say here. Sorry. I'll follow what you did for the others, whenever I do them. I'm running out of time for today's session. Thanks. Ted Watson (talk) 22:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It took the use of some major brain cells, but I think I've been able to restore the Charlie Dog article (by way of copying the original text from the Porky Pig article's history and then pasting it back on the Charlie Dog page). I hope that was good enough. Thanks, anyway, and good luck with the rest of the IMDb links. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 22:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I would've reverted it back anyway. But now that you mentioned it, should we create an article on Miss Prissy, and put it in the "Foghorn Leghorn" article? Agtax 23:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not entirely what to do with Prissy. The Foghorn Leghorn article currently consists of sections devoted to both Leghorn and his nemesis, The Barnyard Dawg. I don't think Prissy herself is exactly notable enough to merit a section in that article. A separate, individual article for Miss Prissy is probably the best choice. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 00:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'd have to say that if The Barnyard Dog doesn't rate his own article--that link redirects to Foggy's--especially considering the fact that McKimson used him in non-Foggy shorts the same way Chuck Jones used the Coyote away from the Road Runner (the appearance would be slightly altered, and the voice/personality would vary sometimes as well), then Miss Prissy can't possibly deserve hers. BTW, about those IMDb links: it seems I was putting in "title=" where it should have been "id="; with the link for Avery's "Thugs..." in an adjacent tab, I don't know how I did it, but that was it. My goof, and I'm sorry I bothered you about that. Ted Watson (talk) 20:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Y'know, Brian advised me, some time before his retirement, against creating an article such as "Miss Prissy", believing that they would get saturated by fancruft and speculation. Still, I always hung on to the hope that, through my collaboration with Agtax, I would be able to counter such cruft. But, since Miss Prissy doesn't really have too much to her and vandals being the way they are, maybe that was a little too much hope. In any case, I'll wait and see what Agtax thinks before completely giving up hope creating articles for these obscure cartoon characters. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 03:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I was lookinh through Looney Tunes articles and there's no mention of Miss Prissy at all. Agtax 04:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The abscence of any mention of her in articles is likely because, as I said before, there's not really too much to her. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 20:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Watson: BTW, that's fine. Believe it or not, I had the same trouble when I was trying to insert IMDb links for pages like Porky Pig's Feat and Hollywood Daffy. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 20:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The weird thing is, I did make the one for Thugs... with "title=" instead of "id=" and several others did work that way, too. Oh well. Ted Watson (talk) 22:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

animation userbox

Try this.

Haven't tested it myself, but it should work. :) - Revolving Bugbear 20:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Use this: {{User:Captain Infinity/Anim}}. Thanks Bugbear, keep on revolving! Captain Infinity (talk) 23:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, yes! It worked! Thank you! :-) Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 01:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Daffy Duck is Jewish

Yes. Do you have the Looney Tunes Golden Collection vol 5? That's what it says in the commentary. Daffy Duck is as Jewish as Betty Boop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smiloid (talk • contribs) 06:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure. And Bugs Bunny is a Rabbi. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't recall Daffy Duck "endorsing" any ethnicity or religion. I also don't remember Betty Boop being Jewish, either. Besides, these character's aren't even real, so how this mention of their "religion" would be relevant is beyond me.

BTW, while I've purchased the first four Looney Tunes Golden Collection DVDs, I have yet to get my hands on the Looney Tunes Golden Collection: Volume 5, for reasons I explained here. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 14:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for not producing another response sooner; I've been busy lately, which accounts for why I haven't made any edits since Monday. Maybe if you provide a cited quote from the commentary, we can judge for ourselves. For more information, see a similar discussion at that article's talk page (note to self). Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 21:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: A very interesting debate over this topic—and many other things—is going on at Baseball Bugs's discussion page. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 06:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

With this, I have now made the point on 3 different pages that while Daffy or Bugsy might lapse into an ethnic schtick sometimes, that doesn't make them part of that ethnic group. In fact, technically their "ethnic groups" are duck and rabbit (or hare?) respectively. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 06:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll admit, while it is interesting to recognise the "ethnic roots" of these characters, we must remember that their creators (who all probably had some religious beliefs) have never confirmed any alleged "religion" for their creations. . . Or have they? Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 06:38, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Not for their main characters, anyway. They would have ethnics turning up as one-shots, but that's different. It's important to keep in mind that the purpose of these cartoons was to be funny, not to fit some logical order. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 06:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Plus it might have put 'em in hot water, as I think this previous chat concerning Walt Disney's spirituality illustrates. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 06:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out to me. That, along with other comments this morning, allow me to boil it down further: Bugs and Porky and Daffy are only as "Jewish" as Chico Marx is "Italian". If you were to list those guys as "fictional Jews", then you would also have to list Chico as a "fictional Italian". Also, as I said on the Disney page, "Don't confuse the artist with the art." Playing a role doesn't make someone what that role is. What was Yosemite Sam? Was he a cowboy? A pirate? A medieval knight? None of the above. He was an actor playing a role, that's all. The difference is that he didn't exist in real life, but only the minds of his creators. Were Daffy or Bugsy Jewish? No, but sometimes they played one. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 11:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: Bugs' Bonnets

I'd love to say I could help, but I can't...at least, not immediately. I'd have to dig the tape up over the weekend (I had it on a tape when Cartoon Network did what would be the last of their "Big Game" Super Bowl parodies in '01). I'll let you know from there. WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 16:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah! I remember those! Didn't Daffy win that last one? Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 20:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Now that I've had time to think about it some more, Daffy did win that last "Bowl"—all because Bugs decided to go on vacation during the final showdown! I guess he really is a "wascawwy wabbit"! :-) Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 00:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I just watched the cartoon. I had never seen that one before. I was just thinking that Bugs has left Elmer at the altar before, but this time they might go through with it. (Too much information, if ya ask me, Doc.) It's on disk 1, right after one of my all-time favorites, Buccaneer Bunny. I'll take a look at your article shortly. FYI, LTGC Volume 5 Disk 1 had it as "Bugs's" instead of "Bugs'" and I fixed it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you wanting more plot detail? I could add a little bit to that. I could list everything, even, although that seems like overkill. Maybe a few examples? One thing that caught my attention is that Arthur Q. Bryan enunciated the letter R correctly several times. I'm thinking he must have developed that habit during the 1950s. He didn't do it much in the 1940s. That's OR, of course. Also, I'm pretty sure that it was Robert C. Bruce narrating, and unless they lifted his lines from some earlier cartoon, he must not have died in 1948 as his own article used to claim. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

To be honest—in no small part due to Cartoon Network's unforgivable removal of the cartoon classics—I haven't seen Bugs' Bonnets in four years! My memories of the film are hazy, which is why I simply used the "plot synopsis" from its IMDb page and cited it. I do remember a few particular gags, though, like Bugs, wearing the huge traditional white wig of a judge, giving "family man" Elmer Fudd a sentence of "only 45 years. . . and hard labor"; I also sort of recall a gag involving the characters in a variation of the "helping-an-old-lady-across-the-street" cliche.

It was my sincere, if not futile, hopes that TCM's Cartoon Alley would evolve into the new "Cartoon Network" replacement. It has since been cancelled, unfortunately. When will the Looney Tunes characters ever return to the airwaves? :-( Sorry, I lapse into nostalgic fits, sometimes. Yes, more plot detail would be nice. :) Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. . .This particular "Robert C. Bruce" must be Robert C. Bruce, Jr., the son of Robert C. Bruce I, since his IMDb dossier credits Jr. for the narration of Bugs' Bonnets. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that's right, and I fixed it. Regarding Bonnets, how about if I try to list the different hats, on that talk page, and you could try writing about them? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that, to me anyway, and all tastes differ, I didn't find the cartoon all that funny. I may as well mention that I have mixed feelings about Chuck Jones' direction in general. I know he's an icon, I just don't think he did Bugs any favors with his approach, at least by the time the 1950s were coming along. People rave about What's Opera Doc, and I think it's overrated. But he also authored some true classics, such as the Road Runner series, and also One Froggy Evening, an extraordinary cartoon, "the Citizen Kane of animation," as Spielberg said. The Frog came onto the scene the same year as this cartoon. I like the Bugs of the 40s, as with Buccaneer Bunny, which was directed by Friz Freleng. Directors like Clampett and McKimson did Bugsy well also. But that's just me. Bugsy remained popular throughout. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess some other critics, including Michael Barrier, whose comment about the film in his 1971 essay over Chuck Jones's slow directorial decline I included in the reception section, agree with you. A lot of the user comments at the film's IMDb page don't speak especially well of Bonnets either.

About What's Opera, Doc?: While I think that it's an excellent cartoon overall, it rather sags in that ballet dance segment. Bugs looks a little too pleased of himself there, a little too effeminate. Thankfully, this sort of interpretation of Bugs wasn't as gapingly flawed and feminine as he was in the Wile E. Coyote cartoon To Hare Is Human. (Both these cartoons are availabe, BTW, in the Looney Tunes Golden Collection: Volume 2.) The Wikipedia page for What's Opera, Doc? might be in need of at least one negative comment about the film, probably something along the lines of what I've just said, if I can find a source for such. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, although I wonder exactly how you're going to pin down all the hats; if memory serves me right, there must've been dozens of them spilling out of that truck. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

This is where the "pause" key comes in. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, check it out and see what you remember. I would guess that the Beck book covers it pretty much that way, probably with less detail. And FYI, there were other hats all over the place. I've just covered the ones that covered Bugs and Elmer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Much obliged for supplying this information. I won't have enough time to peruse it all tonight, though. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 03:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey! I spent a good 15, 20 minutes working on this item! Well, OK. Sleep well. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was nearly 50 minutes between timestamps. As with many things, I appreciated it better the second time around. Also I'm intrigued by the 1950s style of abstract backgrounds like the one in the short intro. It could have been a movie from Disney or even Bell Labs. A time capsule in and of itself. That was a very common illustrative style in the 1950s. I think of it as post art deco. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I finally got around to adding that information to the synopsis section of the article. It probably needs to be trimmed down some, though, as I basically included practically everything you relayed me. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I came across this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claws_for_Alarm It looks like it needs some major fixing. What do you think? Agtax 06:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Definitely. The lead section, synopsis, availability section, and references all need clean-up. While I'm at it, would you mind stopping by Bugs' Bonnets, a new article I created? Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 14:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll try. Though I haven't seen that cartoon in years. Agtax 21:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I listed all the gags in the talk page. Someone smarter than I could try to distill them into an appropriate synopsis. The ending would seem worth discussing, and the others could be summarized by giving a good example or two. I like the MacArthur bit, which would be totally lost on today's youth unless they had studied their history. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll admit, I haven't seen Bonnets for a long time, either. :-) Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 23:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Agtax: I just gave the Claws for Alarm article a quick, massive cleanup [14], although another editor had already fixed a lot of it, including the infobox. The plot section still needs trimming, though. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 00:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Good job! Agtax 05:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Elmer Fudd r/w vandalism

Concerning the substitution of "w" for "r" in Elmer Fudd, I think I've got all of them. However, in checking a bizarrely formatted link for World War II, I saw one I missed and hadn't caught in "preview"ing, so there might be another or two. I also deleted speculation from the discussion of the famous role/reversal short that Elmer-as-Bugs' last line ("...not going to Alcatraz") may have meant the whole thing for him was an act to duck the IRS. Never took it that way myself, but I forgot to say more than "some text tweaking" toward that direction in my edit summary, even though I had plenty or room left there. My bad. Ted Watson (talk) 18:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Good job, and thanks! :-) I would've done it myself, but at the time when I relayed you that message, I was running out of time for that day's session. Thanks, again! Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 23:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Havent you seen Ed, Edd n Eddy?

He's obviously black, it isn't vandalism. Sombrerowearer (talk) 04:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've been a fan of the show since it was first broadcast about ten years ago. Looking at your edit again, I consent that I might have reverted it wrongly, given that, according to this fan wiki, he is the only character of the show with a clearly different race. However, according to said wiki, as well as a Q&A site, Jonny is actually mixed. --Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 04:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I think Mixed works better too. Sombrerowearer (talk) 04:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Wack'd, however, thinks that, since most individual wikis are wildly inaccurate and that this fact in itself isn't notable, we should leave it out of it. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 16:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Jonny could simply have a tan. There is no evidence that he is of any ethnicity. Since there is no evidence, we don't publish it on Wikipedia. -- Elaich ^talk 19:09, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Happy Rabbit is back!

Someone has removed the passage from the Bugs Bunny article that the idea that the Bugs prototype was a character in his own right named Happy Rabbit was a late-in-life invention of Mel Blanc, and posted a new Happy Rabbit article (the similar sentence in Mel's own article remains, however). I've posted a note on the Bugs article talk page to this effect, and now am marshalling our forces. We must enforce our earlier consensus! Ted Watson (talk) 21:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixed, until or if he comes back. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice work! I apologize for not being able to participate in this latest revision; I've been rather busy in this week, and will remain so until the coming weekend. I see that you two are doing more than a fine job without my assistance, though. :-) Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

No problem, CM. This certainly has to be lower priority than real life. Ted Watson (talk) 18:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

What? Surely you jest! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Buckaroo Bugs

The risk of linking "Red Hot Ryder" to Red Ryder is that they are not the same character. I think there was a line that said "Red Hot Ryder is a takeoff on Red Ryder". I think that's the clearer way to state it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

OK with me. I'll fix it right away. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 01:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Done [15]. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 01:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Apostrophe

On a possibly nitpicky topic, did you notice the argument over Bugs' vs. Bugs's? I say the former is correct, and the best thing I have to go on is the one Bugs title that has a possessive in it, our old pal Bugs' Bonnets. The apostrophe article merely demonstrates that it's done both ways and that there is no universal agreement. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Putting .02 in - I would have thought Bugs' was correct, but the NY Times style book apparently uses Bugs's: A Rabbit's Tale: Bugs's 50 Years in Show Business and With Bugs's Debut, It's Toons Square. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 01:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I would think the cartoons themselves take precedence. I don't know if any other WB source covers it, whether it's contradictory, or whatever. The best I can figure out from the apostrophe page is that it has to do with how you say it: Hence, "St. James' Court" if you're saying it like "James" or "St. James's Court" if you're saying it like "Jameses". But how can you tell, in print? Would you say "Bugs Bonnets", or "Bugses Bonnets"? My natural way to say it is "Bugs Bonnets", and presumably that's the intent of the scriptwriters also, especially to make a play on "Bugs Bunny" (without the apostrophe, of course). Complicating it is the style sheet that actually said "Bug's Bunny" rather than either "Bugs' Bunny" or "Bugs's Bunny" in reference to Bugs Hardaway. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Does it really matter? I mean, neither "Bugs'" nor "Bugs's" is actually incorrect. I think either would work, just as long as it's used consistently. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 01:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The issue is that the guy made the assertion that it was Bugs's and went through and changed them without asking anyone first. So, I changed them back. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Presumably WB's take on it is the last word, as they own the character. I'm looking for possessives ending in "s" on the various DVD covers. There aren't many, but they'r consistent: "Chuck Jones' Wabbit Season Trilogy", Gonzales' Tamales, and "Unsung Maestros: A Directors' Tribute". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Warner's usage should prevail. "Bugs's" just looks so damned clumsy. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 01:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it looks weird, and regardless of my opinion (and that of my elementary school teachers' opinions, on whom my opinion is biased, er, based), if WB was in the habbit, er, habit of saying "Bugs's" in their titles, then I would reluctantly argue for their approach. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Great! I'm glad we've reached consensus on this, but are we going to be able to persuade Davecampbell to keep it consistent? Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, but I haven't seen any comments from him on the subject this evening. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Anything New

What's the business. Have any Looney Tunes articles been created while I was gone? Agtax 06:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. I did create one article, Bugs' Bonnets, but that was a number of weeks back, and I intended to create an article over a Mickey Mouse stop motion animation short by Mike Jittlov, Mouse Mania, but never got around to it. I've been contributing at a low rate of activity, too, for the past week or so, thanks to a very busy schedule, and that extended period of inactivity will probably continue indefinitely, what with my computer crashed and all. :-( Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 19:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

New Bugs Bunny Cartoon Article

I created the Robot Rabbit article over the weekend. WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 17:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Good Job

I see you created another Looney Tunes article. Keep up the good work. Agtax 19:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! And glad to see you back again, Agtax! :) Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 21:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm on everyday. I just haven't edited anything that much. Agtax 22:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you know the current statistics on race mixing? Much info would be appriciated. Agtax 02:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about actual numbers, but I'm sure it's more common than what it used to be. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like someone has done a little vandalism on this template.

This user's ethnicity is
African American.

Agtax 02:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me! I've corrected it accordingly. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Re: Bugs' Bonnets (Pt. 2)

Congratulations. WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 19:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I hope I'll be able to buy the next LTGC much more quickly once it becomes available later this fall. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 21:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Popeye

Are you a fan of the Sailor Man? Volume 2 of the DVD set is due out on Tuesday. Popeye is the answer to the question, "What was the most glaring omission from Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" It all had to do with property rights and royalties, I would assume. Kind of like in the film American Graffiti, in which the most obvious rock-and-roll star of the time, Elvis, was altogether missing from the soundtrack. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I do indeed consider myself a fan of Popeye; it's been a couple of years, though, since I've seen any of his cartoons. I remember him fondly, however: He is, after all, the one who actually made me like spinach when I was a kid. :) Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Deja vu! I was a fan of Popeye as a kid, so I decided I was going to learn to like spinach-in-the-can. If it was good enough for Popeye, it was good enough for me. Alas, I didn't eat enough of it, apparently, because I never developed Popeye's arms. I always liked the old black-and-whites from the 1930s much better than the later color ones, where they tried to make him "nicer" instead of the rough-hewn character he was originally. It was a great series, though. Whenever I see National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, I think of the Fleischer cartoons, as Mae Questel (voice of both Olive Oyl and Betty Boop at various times) plays Chevy Chase's senile grandmother or something. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Looney Tunes

Well, at least they'll finally have Hare Trigger, the "missing" one from the early Bugs / Yosemite Sam classics. The Big Question is, aside from the 11 "censored" items (about which WB is currently silent), are there any additional "classic" ones still missing? And I don't mean "Buddy" or that goat character ("Gabby"?). Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... not anymore "classics" that I can think of, at the moment. I'll have to get it some more thought. I do remember Gabby, though, back during the 1930s black-and-white days of the Looney Tunes. I didn't really like him very much; he seemed way too irritable for my tastes. :) — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 18:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Truth to tell, the WB cartoons were generally pretty boring until about 1938 or so. If you compare where they were with where Disney and the Fleischers were in the 30s, there's no contest. The Popeye cartoons from the mid-30s were way much more entertaining than the WB's. In fairness, the WB cartoons were merely intended to promote songs and features. Once the classic crew of Termite Terrace took over, a revolution occurred. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep, true statement. One can only wonder what might've occurred if Tex Avery hadn't come along. Err, that's sending shivers down my spine — let's not talk about it! :) FYI, Hare Trigger was already available, albeit unrestored, in a bonus feature called What's Up, Doc?: A Salute to Bugs Bunny that was on the Looney Tunes Golden Collection: Volume 3. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 18:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

In its entirety? I had missed that somehow. Shazam! Oops, wrong character. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep yep. Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 19:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Just finished watching it. Don't know how I missed it. Some of the same clips as from Bugs Bunny Superstar. Also, the presumably earliest use of "This means war!" by the primordial Bugs, I think it was in Porky's Hare Hunt. Great stuff. Also, a possible source for the fallacy that Blanc was allergic to carrots. Blanc said he simply didn't like them. Clampett (wearing his Beatle wig) said that Blanc was "in effect, allergic to carrots", which is maybe not quite the same thing. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

A Wild Hare

My guess is that he keeps deleting it because he considers it off-topic, i.e. that who the other nominees were belong in an awards article, not this one. However, it would be nice if he would actually articulate his reason. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The previously removed content, as of now, reads thusly:

The short was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Short Subject: Cartoons in 1941. Another contestant was Puss Gets the Boot, a Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer short, directed by Joseph Barbera, William Hanna and produced by Rudolph Ising, notable for introducing Tom and Jerry. Both nominations lost to The Milky Way, another MGM Rudolph Ising short which featured three nameless kittens.

Maybe if I trim it down to one sentence and cut some of the seemingly irrelevent material, it'll work. How 'bout this?:

The short was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Short Subject: Cartoons in 1941, but it lost The Milky Way, a MGM Rudolph Ising short which featured three nameless kittens.

I think that'll work — don't you? — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 16:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Naming who it lost to seems fair. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done. I was bold and went ahead and slimmed that paragraph down. (See: here.) Hope it is satisfactory. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 17:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, wasn't this also the first Oscar nomination that Termite Terrace garnered? It was either this or another Tex Avery cartoon. *scratches temple* I can't recall at the moment. Was it A Wild Hare? — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 17:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. But there has to be a list of animated short subject nominees somewhere. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Apparently it was, according to filmsite.org, at least. Wow, Bugs really was a phenomenon! Too bad A Wild Hare didn't win — I remember seeing The Milky Way, and I found it sort of bland. Oh, well. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 17:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Some things defy explanation. Such as how "Call Me Irresponsible" won for best song, in a year when "More" was clearly the best song. Or how No Country for Old Men won for best picture last year. Some things defy explanation. Maybe I said that already. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

When I'm watching some of these very-familiar cartoons, I try to imagine what it would have been like to be sitting in a theater when one of them appeared for the very first time. Apparently the "What's up, Doc?" line in A Wild Hare just cracked everybody up because it was the last thing they thought a rabbit would say to a hunter. And what about the line about "A-Cards" rationing stickers at the end of Falling Hare? I bet the audience screamed at that one. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No Country for Old Men was one pretty freaky movie. This S.O.B flips a coin to decide whether or not he should kill all these innocent people at a gas station. ...WTF? ... Not my kinda movie — but then again, all tastes differ.

This is why Bugs Bunny endeared to more people than, say, Daffy Duck or the pre-1940 Bugses. Unlike those characters, Bugs is a clearly sane rabbit; a screwball being able to one-up a hunter is entertaining and believable enough, but a clearly sane character doing that — and maintaining a cool, nonchalant attitude throughout — must've been hilarious to audiences back then. That's also kind of why Groucho was, and still is, popular: He ignored danger, and still was able to one-up his antagonists. A perfect example: In Monkey Business, an angry mafia boss points a gun at Groucho, and Groucho exclaims, "Cute, isn't it? Is that what Santa Clause brought you for Christmas? I got a fire engine!"  :) — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 18:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, Groucho's defiance in the face of mortal danger was echoed in Bugs' attitude. I like the original Daffy quite a lot - he's "looney tooney, and oofty McGoofty". But I identify with Bugs a great deal. He's what I would like to be like in real life. And like Popeye, he's what Americans thought they were all about at that time, whether that was really true or not. The original bunny was basically Daffy in a rabbit suit, with a dash of Woody Woodpecker (who was a lot like Daffy early on, in part because Blanc was voicing him). Once Bugsy developed that cool-and-calm demeanor, he was there. And that's why this film is the first true Bugsy film. The others were just warm-ups. You could make a vague comparison between Bugs / Daffy and Marx / Stooges. They were all funny, but Bugs and the Marxes had an extra dimension that made them stand out artistically. Well, this is getting heavy. :) I'm reminded of another Groucho line, maybe in that same film, some guy is yelling threateningly at Groucho, "Beat it! I said, Beat it!" Groucho's comeback, talking not directly to the guy but to others around him, "He said 'Beat it.' I wish I'd said that. Everyone's repeating it around the club!" Groucho's anarchic, defiant, implied "F-you" attitude made him stand out. Like when the straight-and-narrow cabinet member complains about being unappreciated, in Duck Soup. I'm guessing you'll remember that one. If not, let me know and I'll refresh your memory. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) Ah, yes! I remember that bit fondly. After Groucho waves off a complaint concerning the workers of Freedonia wanting shorter hours ("Very well, we'll give them shorter hours — let's start by cutting their lunch hours to twenty minutes!"), the Secretary of War starts getting fed up:

Secretary of War: Gentlemen! Enough of this. How about taking up the tax?

Groucho: How about taking up the carpet?

Secretary of War: I still insist we must take up the tax.

Groucho: (to Zeppo) He's right. You've got to take up the tacks before you can take up the carpet.

Secretary of War: I give all my time and energy to my duties and what do I get?

Groucho: You get awfully tiresome after a while.

Secretary of War: Sir, you try my patience!

Groucho: (stands up) Well, I don't mind if I do! You must come over and try mine sometime.

Secretary of War: That's the last straw! I resign! I wash my hands of the whole business!

Groucho: (not the least bit concerned) That's a good idea. You can wash the rest of your body, too.

Balls-acious, one might say.  :) — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 21:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! I think the final retort actually was "wash your neck on the way out". That's even more insulting, because it suggests he's basically unsanitary and seldom bathes. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 21:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Oops — my bad! :) Speaking of funny business, have you caught any recent broadcasts of The Daily Show or its offshoots? — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 21:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think that was the Minister of Finance. The Secretary of War spoke earlier, or tried to. Groucho said, "Secretary of War is out of order! Which reminds me - So is the plumbing. Make a note of that! Never mind, I'll do it myself!" He writes with a really long quill. At some point, Harpo snips off the feather, a recurring schtick in that film of clipping anything that stuck out. Chicago morning D.J. Wally Phillips had a gazillion little sound bits he used to play for emphasis, and one of them was "Make a note of that!" That was well before your time. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, again! It probably was! You see, I was remembering the scene that directly follows that one, in which Groucho hires Chico as the new Secretary of War. I was thinking, "If Groucho needed another Secretary of War, then the Secretary must've been the one who resigned during the previous scene." Oh, well — I try, anyway.

Regarding Wally Phillips, you're right; that was well before my time, and, although I recognize his name, any other such allusions to him (as the ones in this film) would, I admit, fly right over my head. :) Oh, well — I try, anyway. Maybe I said that already. :) — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 15:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Split articles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looney_Tunes_and_Merrie_Melodies_filmography Do you think this article should be split? Everytime I go to this article, it slows before I could scroll down. Agtax 04:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Probably, since it is quite long as it is. It'd be best to get consensus first before doing so, however; we can take it to the talk page. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 20:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: Said discussion taking place here. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 20:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ed, Edd n Eddy GA

I put the GA nomination for Ed, Edd n Eddy on hold for a week. Just thought I'd let you know. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells• Otter chirps • HELP!)} 18:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

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 Done See here. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 00:10, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

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 Done See here. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 16:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but...

Have you ever seen the House of Mouse episode "Mickey and the Culture Clash"? If you haven't, you should.
~~LDEJRuff~~ ^{(see what I've contributed)} 15:08, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

No, I don't recall seeing that episode, but it sounds intriguing, just from the title. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 23:52, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free media (File:KevinEE'n'E.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (File:Nazz2.png)

Thanks for uploading File:Nazz2.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Bugs Bunny—David Lopez or Bill Farmer?

Welcome back! Been a long time since I've noticed your name on an edit.

You corrected a name among the voice actors for Bugs Bunny. That had been credited to Bill Farmer until a couple of days ago, at which point I assumned it to be vandalism. By the time I got through checking all the new entries on my watchlist page, I'd forgotten about that one and failed to revert it. Did you just assume that the base name is correct, or do you know something about Robot Chicken that I don't? (I now have your talk page on watch for the duration of this discussion, so you can respond right here.) --Ted Watson (talk) 19:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Eyy!!! :) Hi there, Ted! You're right; it has been a long time. :)

About the Bugs Bunny/Robot Chicken edit, your first assumption is correct: I simply thought that the name "David Lopez" was correct and fixed it in regards to grammar and capitalization. My mistake, as now I do remember that Bill Farmer was indeed the one originally credited; I just couldn't recollect it at the time. Thanks for catching my error. As I said before, it's been a long time! :-P — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 22:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Got it! --Ted Watson (talk) 22:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back!

You've only edited sporadically for a few months. Drat that schoolwork anyway. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Bugsy!  :) ...Ha-ha, I hope you don't mind, but I sort of "borrowed" one of your widgets from your talk page that I thought was funny. Like I say, hope you don't mind! :)...

Yes, it's good to be back, I must say. :) You're right, too; looking back over my contribs, I've made less than 50 edits in nearly half a year! There are plenty of legitimate excuses for my absence, but none of them are really justifiable. At least now, with school done and over with for a few months, I'll be able to pick up the pace. Having said that, what have I missed! :P — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 16:26, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Clampett.gif

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 Done — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 06:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Clampett.gif

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 Done Taken care of. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 18:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Hare Force

Howdy! A long while back you moved the following quote from the trivia section to the main lead of the article Hare Force: "The unit of Friz Freleng was the first unit besides Bob Clampett to use the definite design."

Any idea what "definite design" the author of this quote meant? The statement is uncited and totally ambiguous. I think I'm going to remove it unless it can be defined. Thanks for your help. --Captain Infinity (talk) 16:21, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow. I'm just seeing this now. Haha! It's clear I've got some catching up to do. But yes, I do know what they meant—I just didn't expound upon it for some reason at the time. It would be the design that was initially birthed by Robert Givens and later reused frequently by Robert McKimson, both on Bob Clampett's team (when he served as animator) and when McKimson himself took a director's chair. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 06:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Boxofficebuuny2.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:Boxofficebuuny2.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 12:20, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Blooper Bunny.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:Blooper Bunny.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 12:21, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:BugsBonnetsTitleCard.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:BugsBonnetsTitleCard.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 12:25, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Floyd Gottfredson Library/Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse

Hi! I'm definitely David Gerstein—come up to the house sometime for a duck dinner (you bring the duck!). (-:

You said: "I certainly get a lot of hits on Google for GLi Anni D'Oro di Topolino, but unfortunately, in English they're entirely Amazon/eBay/message board hits...not a single review or other citable source in English..."

Well, here's an early article from a fairly authoritative Disney comics news blog, dating from when Gli Anni was first starting: http://www.wolfstad.com/dcw/blog/2010/04/new-floyd-gottfredson-library-in-italy/ And here's an index of the whole series, from which you can see that they definitely made good on publishing the full run: https://coa.inducks.org/publication.php?c=it/CAT Meanwhile, here's an index of an earlier 1980s German series that published the entire run: http://coa.inducks.org/publication.php?c=de/MMNEW

Moving on, I should alert you that I'm now going to edit a few erroneous points about the books that are presently on the page.

Both books 1 and 2 are really 288 pages as published, including covers. But the Wiki gives book 2 as 312 pages, probably because early Fanta publicity did the same. (Hmm... I see their website still doesn't have the right page count...)

Wiki cites Book 1 as covering April 1, 1930-January 9, 1932, mentioning that "book 1 is shorter," but the strip sections are really the same length; Book 1 *starts* with April 1, but actually has January 13, 1930-March 31, 1930 in the back of the book at full size. (We presented them as an appendix because Gottfredson didn't work on them...)

Hope all of this is understandably deserving of a fix; the books themselves are the best evidence of what they contain (...and how much of it!)

Best, D 74.72.0.105 (talk) 09:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

And now I've made the date correction. 74.72.0.105 (talk) 09:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Urgh, I wasn't logged in when I made the previous alterations. Here's an extra sig to confirm it's me: Ramapith (talk) 09:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm more than a little late in responding to this, and I apologize, but thank you!! :) — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 09:36, 17 December 2011 (UTC)