User talk:CinchBug/Archive 2

Adjourned from IBDP page

Hi Cinchbug,

I am not a teacher. But I understand the frustration teachers must feel when they are trying to get across a point and the students just don't seem to get it. This clearly must be my fault, so I am asking for your patience as I attempt to convey more clearly my point. You said:

ObserverNY, I really don't see what the timeline for registration has to do with anything. If your claim that the IBDP is "discriminatory and elitist" is based on the fact that students have to pay for their exams and the DP registration fee, then that makes AP no less "discriminatory and elitist," only less expensive.

The IB student registration timeline has EVERYTHING to do with making the programme elitist and discriminatory, especially if a school is refusing to register students for a Diploma, TWO YEARS before the exams are given. Refusal to register a student for an IB Diploma, offered at a public high school because of financial need, is to deny a student the opportunity to attain the "product" that the district is promoting as its "premier" offering. My district pays the IB student registration fees, but not the IB exam fees. It is probably one of the reasons the DP has had a consistent 50% attrition rate between 11th and 12th grades. To allow only those kids who can afford the approx. $650 worth of fees the opportunity to earn the IBDP which can potentially save parents a year's worth of college tuition, is catering to the "haves" and denying the "have nots".

AP has no such pre-registration requirement. One can take an AP course and either choose or not choose to take the AP exam. The College Board also offers a far greater reduction in exam fees than IB does. Furthermore, one doesn't even have to take an AP course to take the AP exam. Not so with IB. In many IB schools, IB uses this AP flexibility and encourages students to take both the AP and IB finals, especially in SL IB courses which are most often not recognized by universities for college credit.

Your college example really doesn't fly - there are a lot of elitist private universities. But if you are talking about public/State universities, any student with decent grades and decent SAT scores who is so poor that they can't afford IB exam fees but scored a 30 or higher would undoubtedly qualify for free ride. ObserverNY (talk) 18:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Hi, ObserverNY.

I really don't want to turn my Talk page into a discussion forum any more than I want to turn any particular article's Talk page into a discussion forum. But I was curious about your claim that "the IB student 'registration' fee must be submitted to IBO at the beginning of 11th Grade," which is something I hadn't ever heard before. So I looked it up in the Handbook for Procedures for the IBDP and here is what I found:

It is not true that Diploma candidates must be registered during the fall of their first (junior) year in the programme (IB Coordinators do have to send in a forecast of which and how many subjects they expect to be tested in March (assuming they take May exams) of the year prior to the forecasted examination session, but no fee is charged at this time). If a student is going to test in either one or two subjects as a junior, then they are registered and the registration fee and subject fee (or fees, if taking two subjects) are paid during the fall of their junior year, in which case a second registration fee is not charged when the student sits for the rest of their exams during their senior year, only the particular subject fees. Otherwise, they are registered and fees are paid in the fall of their senior year. The per-test fee is $88. No fee is charged for ToK assessments and the Extended Essay. Score reports may be sent to up to 6 colleges for no additional cost and IB charges $13 each for score reports sent to any additional college. Once the scores are available (July 5th this year, as I recall), students may access their scores online at no additional cost.

According to the "Bulletin for AP students and parents, 2008-2009," the per-test fee is $86 and students are registered by the spring of the year in which they take the exam (I didn't find an exact date, though homeschooled students and those who are at a school that doesn't regularly offer AP must have contacted the school at which they will take the test by March 15th, so it seems likely that all students need to be registered by the end of March/early April). AP allows students to have their score report sent to one college as part of the service they provide. Reports sent to any additional college cost $15 per college. Students may phone the 24-hour AP Automated Grade Reporting Service to get their scores once the scores are available (1st of July), but this service costs $8 per call (presumably a student with extremely limited funds would elect to simply wait and get their scores by mail).

So assume that we're talking about a student who must pay the fees entirely by themselves. A summary of their costs is below:

Under IB, taking 6 subjects in order to earn the IBDP, with scores sent to 6 colleges:

Registration fee + 6*(Subject Fee) = $129 + 6*$88 = $657

Under AP, taking 6 subjects, with scores sent to 6 colleges:

6*(exam fee) + 5*(additional reports fee) = 6*$86 + 5*$15 = $591

Under AP, taking 6 subjects, with scores sent to 6 colleges, assuming maximum financial assistance is granted by AP and the school:

6*(reduced exam fee) + 5*(additional reports fee) = 6*$56 + 5*$15 = $411

Assuming these conditions and that this student and his/her family is in dire financial need, then there is a maximum cost differential of $246 more in fees in the case of IB (edit at 17:37 UTC, 13 Jul 2009: I used the term "maximum" in reference to the conditions as stated above; if a student taking 6 AP exams chooses to send a score report to only 1 college, then the cost differential would of course be $321). While I didn't find any specific fee reduction for IB students in need of financial assistance, IB Coordinators are able to make requests on behalf of students with special circumstances. IB also provides temporary grants to schools with special circumstances. This doesn't take into account any state or federal assistance a school may get for IB or AP exams. So I can't put a figure on the number of dollars that could possibly be reduced due to financial need.

Given the above information, does the possibility exist that some students with very limited financial means may not be able to test in all 6 subjects to earn the IB Diploma? If they can afford strictly less than $657, then yes, it's possible. If they can afford strictly less than $411, then they will also be unable to test in all 6 AP subjects. (edit at 21:50 UTC, 13 Jul 2009: Or, in line with my earlier edit/caveat above, if they send score reports to only 1 college, then of course if they can afford strictly less than $336, then they will also be unable to test in all 6 AP subjects.)

So is it true that "the IB student registration timeline has EVERYTHING to do with making the programme elitist and discriminatory," as you claimed? Given that the timeline requirements themselves are not what you claimed them to be (an honest mistake, I'm sure, since there's a lot of misinformation out there about all of these things, including IB, AP, SATs...and the list could go on, of course), then clearly not.

(I might also point out that students can change their candidate status from "Certificate" to "Diploma" and vice-versa, so nothing is set in stone during their junior year.)

Bottom line: do I think that these costs are so prohibitive to students that they make either IB or AP "discriminatory and elitist?" No, I do not. Would I prefer that they cost less? Of course.

As for my comments about colleges and universities, you referred to "any student with decent grades and decent SAT scores." What about those with perhaps "less-than-decent" grades and SAT scores? After all, over time the educational research literature has suggested a correlation between academic performance and socioeconomic status, so it is therefore reasonable to suspect that such a student is more likely not to have "decent" grades and scores.

If such a student wants to go to a particular college or university that does not provide sufficient financial aid and that student is not able to secure the necessary additional financial aid or academic scholarship money, then by your definition that would make that college or university "discriminatory and elitist." This wouldn't be limited to only the extraordinarily expensive schools, the Ivy League, and other "elite" schools. Could such a student probably end up going to some college? I would think so, but not necessarily the one they may have really wanted to attend with the "premier" program in the subject they wish to study.

Do I think that this makes such a school "discriminatory and elitist?" No, I don't think so.

I hope your daughter's birthday party went well and that she had a happy birthday! Regards, CinchBug | Talk 16:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey Cinchbug - amidst the incredible changes made to the articles, I apologize for missing your thoughtful reply. But I want you to re-read something you wrote: If a student is going to test in either one or two subjects as a junior, then they are registered and the registration fee and subject fee (or fees, if taking two subjects) are paid during the fall. YES! And a full DP student WILL take at least ONE SL exam at the end of their junior year! Ergo, ALL FULL DP students are registered in the fall of the junior year! This is not an exception, it is a rule. Cheers! ObserverNY (talk) 11:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Full Diploma candidates can take all 6 of their IB exams in their Senior year. They are not obligated to register for any exams in their Junior year, but, they are allowed to take and register for up to two exams in their Junior year. La mome (talk) 12:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, that is incorrect information. We were discussing the IB student registration fee. In most cases, this $129 is paid by the school to IB in the fall of the junior year of the crop of IB students. Furthermore, if an SL course is actually 150 hours as designed, the exam is given at the end of the junior year. A student cannot take the course in junior year and then the exam at the end of their senior year (and why would they anyway?) ObserverNY (talk) 10:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

No, La mome is quite correct. Students are not required to register as juniors unless they take an SL course (and, hence*, exam) during their junior year. The fact is that not all students (neither all Certificate candidates nor all Diploma candidates) take an SL course during their junior year. They can instead take all 6 of their exams at the conclusion of their senior year. Your claim that "...if an SL course is actually 150 hours as designed, the exam is given at the end of the junior year" is simply false. The vast majority of SL courses take place during one school year and are taken by students during their senior year.

As for this: "A student cannot take the course in junior year and then the exam at the end of their senior year (and why would they anyway?)" *Actually, they could do so if they wished, but I've never heard of anyone doing this nor can I think of a logical reason why someone would.

Edit: Actually, I just thought of an example, but it involves a combination of both an HL and an SL course. If an exceptionally talented student was to take Mathematics HL during their sophomore and junior years, then they would have to wait until their senior year to take the exam (since HL exams may not be taken during a student's junior year--a rule that I don't particularly care for). If the school offers it, then the student could take Further Mathematics SL (which is being renamed as Further Mathematics HL in a couple of years, which makes a lot more sense) as a senior. The student would then test in Math HL and Further Math SL as a senior.

As I stated earlier, there is no requirement for students to register during their junior year unless they are taking an exam at the end of their junior year, and there is no requirement that says a diploma student must take an SL course/exam during their junior year. Hence, many do not. Regardless, even if a student does take an SL exam as a junior and registers as a "Certificate" candidate and not a "Diploma" candidate (or vice-versa), they can change that status the following year without having to pay the registration fee a second time. Regards, • CinchBug • 12:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Ahem. As teachers, you both seem to be completely unaware of "administrative disbursements". First of all, the $129 registration fee is for FULL DIPLOMA STUDENTS ONLY. IB requires the school to remit that money in the beginning of the junior year. Why? Why do you think there is no requirement to "pay again"? Because of the tremendous attrition rate in full DP students from junior to senior year, that's why! A Certificate student cannot become a full DP in the senior year so I seriously don't get your point about the Certificate student who takes an SL exam junior year. Irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Most schools pick up the $129 registration fee, it doesn't fall on the student and it is built into the cost of the programme. It doesn't MATTER if a full DP student takes an SL exam in the junior year, or ALL 6 IB exams in the senior year - the registration fee is paid in the beginning of the junior year. The individual exam fees are paid several months before the exams. Two separate items.

Btw, an exceptionally talented Math student in our school was not ALLOWED to take IB Math in my school as a sophomore, because IB told the school that its regulations restricted entry to DP courses to 11th and 12th graders. The kid did AP independently and ended up going to Duke despite IB, but it caused him nothing but grief and denied him opportunities that non-IB schools in our area offered. Ironic, I just had a spirited political chat with that kid's dad at our green market this morning. Lovely, bright, wonderful family. IB punishes and holds back the truly gifted. ObserverNY (talk) 22:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

p.s. to Cinchbug - I know as an IB Math teacher, you guys are hot for IB Further Math. But the last time I checked, < 100 students WORLDWIDE took IB Further Math. I know our school doesn't offer it. Heck, it took 3 years for them to even start offering IB HL Math! That's why IB is not a "standardized" international curriculum because the same courses aren't offered in every school! ObserverNY (talk) 23:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY, this marks at least the third time I have corrected you about this matter and it will be the last. I don't know why you continue to make claims that are false, but I do not appreciate you putting them here, especially after I've explained that you are wrong. I also told you at the beginning that I didn't want to turn my Talk page into a discussion forum and I'll reiterate that now. I request that you stop posting on these topics at my Talk page. If you insist on making false claims, please do that on your Talk page, not mine.

Now, for the very last time, regarding these claims of yours:

First of all, the $129 registration fee is for FULL DIPLOMA STUDENTS ONLY. IB requires the school to remit that money in the beginning of the junior year...It doesn't MATTER if a full DP student takes an SL exam in the junior year, or ALL 6 IB exams in the senior year - the registration fee is paid in the beginning of the junior year.

This is false, for two reasons. First, the registration fee is paid for (or by, if the student is paying for it him/herself) all students who take an examination. It is paid only once for each student. Second, it is only required to be paid in the student's junior year if that student is sitting for one (or two) examinations during his/her junior year--it is not required to be paid in the junior year of students who are pursuing the full IB Diploma, unless a given student is sitting for an examination in their junior year.

So your claim is not true. Please do not repeat this falsehood on my Talk page again.

A Certificate student cannot become a full DP in the senior year so I seriously don't get your point about the Certificate student who takes an SL exam junior year.

This is false. If a student takes an examination in his/her junior year and at that time does not plan to pursue the full IB Diploma, then they still have the option of pursuing the full IB Diploma in their senior year. Obviously, they will have had to have been studying three appropriate HL courses during their junior year (and continue them in their senior year, in addition to fulfilling the rest of the requirements).

Regarding the talented mathematics student whom your school wouldn't allow to start Math HL in his sophomore year, that's quite regrettable. We have students who begin Math HL as sophomores at my school nearly every year.

Regarding Further Math SL, yes, it is true that few students sit for this examination every year. Hopefully, when it becomes an HL course, this will change. But what will not change is that not every high school mathematics teacher is fully qualified to teach the Further Math SL curriculum, which makes it difficult for schools to offer the course.

As for this:

That's why IB is not a "standardized" international curriculum because the same courses aren't offered in every school!

It is quite impossible for each course to be offered by every school. There are small schools with small populations that have, for example, only 1 mathematics teacher (I use this example because a friend of mine is a teacher at an international school overseas who is in exactly this situation). That makes offering all four of the IB mathematics courses (or just the primary three IB mathematics courses) rather difficult, since that teacher will also be teaching other courses to students in their freshman and sophomore years.

On the other hand, there are also big schools, such as some of the public schools in the United States, that have 15 or more faculty in each academic department. Thus, they might have a Social Studies Department that could offer not only History HL, but also several--or even all--of the elective Group 3 courses, as well.

And, since a great many IB schools are international schools and are located in a variety of countries, the array of languages offered at any given school is quite logically likely to be different than that offered at a school in a different country.

So, if you understand the above examples, you'll see why it would be quite mad to require every IB school to offer all of the same courses. IB does require each school to offer multiple paths to the IB Diploma. How many paths, exactly? I don't know and, frankly, I'm not interested enough to go look it up.

This matter is closed on my Talk page. So, again, please stop posting on these topics here. If you must continue, then please do so on your own Talk page. Regards, • CinchBug • 13:24, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

On Leaving

Hi Cinchbug -- I wanted to alert TFOWR because the initial ANI notification originated w/ him, and I got caught in the mess. So, thanks for your encouragement, but as I've stated earlier I have a hard deadline in my real life, and some other good projects to work on in Wikipedia (sans the drama!). I could carve out time to work on IB, but won't do it with drama, and don't want to be the "fall guy". Happy editing!! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Truthkeeper, sure, I understand. The drama is a bit much at the IB pages, far more so than on most of the pages I've visited (the mathematics articles on WP are particularly good and those Talk pages are more or less entirely devoid of silliness). Anyway, best of luck with your hard deadline and other WP projects. I do hope that we'll see you around here again at some point.

Thanks for all you've done!! Best regards, CinchBug | Talk 18:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Ummmm

Is LaMome's repasting of editor talk messages on the IB talk page considered appropriate? Thanks. ObserverNY (talk) 23:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

On Truce

I'm all for giving peace a chance, LaMome has accepted the truce. How long do you propose waiting to see if Tvor65 acts in good faith and reverts his/her edit? Cheers! ObserverNY (talk) 21:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Done. Talk about "writing for the enemy." Lol! (P.S. Does it strike you that our new virtual world has made us collectively remarkably impatient? Not that I'm well-known for patience, of course...) Regards, CinchBug | Talk 21:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Instant gratification isn't fast enough! However, I don't know about that being a "collective" attribute, but I concede, patience isn't one of my best virtues. Persistence on the other hand... ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 00:10, 20 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I'll be watching to see how "fair and balanced" the IB article proceeds. Good call on the duplication of the Mission Statement. ObserverNY (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Well, I always try hard to assume good faith. It seems to be okay so far. Regards, — CinchBug 17:15, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the "suggestion" on articles about IB for the gifted sounds realN-POV ... LOL! That's ok. I'll just watch the article load up on pro-IB POV and probably see the 3rd Op disappear or commit his/herself to a sanitorium. ;-)ObserverNY (talk) 19:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Hi CB-Please take a look at the IB page when you get a chance. I added the Learner Profile in the organisation section with the mission statement. I'll try to finish up on the Group 2 page later and I might be able to fix the TOK page, at least with references from the IB Guide. I don't know what kind of secondary sources are out there for TOK. Thanks! La mome (talk) 12:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

TOK page

Cinchbug - I just took a look at the TOK page - DISASTER! What say you? ObserverNY (talk) 11:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Formatting refs

Shout if you need help. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

HELLLLLP!! Gah! ~sigh~ • CinchBug • 15:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Put the citation into the working ref group (doesn't have to be formatted) and I'll fix and then add an explanation to the talkpage. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, will do. Thanks! • CinchBug • 15:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Catching up

Hi Cinchbug! As anticipated, my life outside the world of Wikipedia is getting a little hectic, but I'm trying to check in as much as possible. I had some copy edits to complete (almost done!) so I've had to abandon the Harlan Hanson page. I do, however, want to tell you what a stellar job you've done with the research. Now I need to find the time to read it all!! In the meantime, do you happen to have a page number from Bagnall's (sp?) dissertation about Hanson, so I don't have to plow through the entire thing at once? Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey, thanks! The reference to Hanson in the dissertation is on page 63 of the pdf file (which is page 52 of the actual document). I'm also trying to find some way to get to the original journal article that Bagnall used, speficially: Freeman, J. (1987) The International Baccalaureate. The College Board Review. No. 143, Spring. 4 -6. But I haven't been successful yet. Regards, • CinchBug • 21:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen that on Google Scholar and I believe on ERIC. I believe the paper has to be ordered, and am not sure I'm willing to go that far for this project. Thanks for the page number, makes it much easier. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

CB & TK-

You might want to check out some of the changes that were made on the HH page. I am sorry I haven't been contributing much, but it takes me a lot longer than everyone else to find, format and post info and once I do, all hell breaks loose. You guys have done a great job on Harpo's page and at the IB pages. Thank you for all of your hard work.

Ciao La mome (talk) 01:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

La mome, yeah, I saw it and posted a remark to ONY on the HH Talk page a moment ago. I recommend that we give ObserverNY a good faith opportunity to revert and collaborate. I really don't think another confrontation will be of any service either to the editors (including ONY) or the article and would prefer that we proceed in a cooperative fashion, a la Paul Erdős. I'm hoping that we can avoid having any Hell break loose on the Harpo Hanson article. ;)

I still need to go through all of the references you suggested. So thanks to you for your hard work, as well. Regards, • CinchBug • 02:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I may have ruined your nice neutral position. Also posted over there. Not in a good way. Don't often snap to this extent, but tonight was too much for me! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

TK, well, I understand your frustration, of course. But I do hope that we can give ONY a chance to revert and collaborate--I have no doubt that ObserverNY is feeling frustration, too, and that shouldn't be discounted.

Huh, I suppose this all sounds pretty "touchy-feely" for a math and science person. But, as a teacher, I deal with more than just mathematics every day, I deal with people: students, parents, other teachers. So I think this approach--touchy-feely though it may seem--has merit and I hope that we can all give it a chance. Best regards! • CinchBug • 02:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I shall now slink away again, and unwatchlist the pages. It's really the only solution. Plenty to do over in the science fiction section. Good luck! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Good heavens, Truthkeeper, that's not necessary at all! Why would you do that? We really need your contributions here--you've done a great deal of impressive work at the Hanson article and it will undoubtedly suffer if you leave and unwatch it! Please, reconsider! Please! • CinchBug • 02:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Honestly I'd love to work on these articles. Reading 600 pages a day is not a problem for me, and I can crank out some fairly decent summaries of what I've read. However, the time it takes to access the literature, read the literature, format the citations, add the text is significant as you know. To have it deleted in a single swipe without discussion, without consensus, isn't really my cup of tea. I hadn't edited a single thing on the IB pages for days, yet look what it got -- a full war, which I hate. So, when consensus is achieved let me know. In the meantime, I'll read the refs, make notes, but not add to the HH page, because it will disappear. Really am logging out now! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

TK, you certainly make a good point--or points, actually. I will indeed keep you informed. Please feel free to include any notes or references you find on my Talk page. Be well! • CinchBug • 02:48, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Please see note to you at Harlan Hanson talk page. ObserverNY (talk) 14:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Bagnall

After looking at the history, I see that it wasn't you who added the Bagnall ref to IB DP. Sorry about that. The edits were fast & furious, and I should have taken the time to check better. I apologize. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 04:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey, no worries! It's not a problem. Regards, • CinchBug • 13:18, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

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Thanks and welcome back

Thanks for fixing com to org. Haven't seen you around for awhile---hope you had a nice break. Check out the capitalization and let me know if I am doing it right. Cheers!La mome (talk) 21:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, La mome! Yeah, I was away with the family for a bit. We had a very nice time, thanks! As far as the capitalization goes, I have to admit that I'm not entirely sure how we're supposed to be doing this. Are we following the style used by the IB? I read the discussion at the IBDP Talk page, but I'm afraid that I don't really understand what the final resolution was. Regards, • CinchBug • 21:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey--the word for the day is "decapitalization." So, for example, Information technology in a global society (ITGS) with only the first word capitalized. Theory of knowledge, extended essay and creativity, action, service (capitalize first letter only if starting a sentence). Paper 1 and paper 2 (the P is capitalized only if it starts a sentence.) Pointillist discovered this the hard way, but it does make sense and "modernizes" the IB series, which is more in line with the "wiki" way, I think. Quick question for you---how do I access the "reflist" for Language B? (Hope there is a quick answer, that moi, la technophobe, can easily comprehend).

La mome (talk) 22:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

La mome, okay. But is that essentially a "universal standard" (always drop caps after the first word) for the IB articles, or are we following the convention used by IB in their documents? For example, the titles of the subject guides for both Mathematical Studies SL and Further Mathematics SL have the second letter capitalized, but the title for the Computer science subject guide does not have the second word capitalized.

As far as the "reflist" goes, I don't think you can edit the template itself--I would assume that it's locked since the same template is used throughout the encyclopedia and, hence, any changes to the template itself would have far-reaching repurcussions. However, comma, you don't actually need to edit the template at all! To fix the problem with ibo.com that you had mentioned, all I did was go to the reference tag in the body of the article and make the change there. You can check out the diff here and see exactly what I did. It's really quite simple. Let me know if you have other questions--although I'm sure that TK has considerably more technical knowledge about this stuff than I do! Regards, • CinchBug • 23:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Follow what the IB does for Mathematical Studies and Further Maths---I guess that is the general rule. Capitalize whatever is considered a proper name or the title of a course. I figured out how to go to the sources for the refs in the edit history and added to the group 2 page ab initio section.

Thanks! La mome (talk) 23:17, 16 August 2009 (UTC)