User talk:Carliphilip

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Thanks

Thanks for your persistence in following up on the Audrey Munson information, an important point in chronicling American film history. I wrote a note on the Munson talk page which you may have an interest in adding to. Nice that you've added a user name to your IP, comes in handy when editing. I'll drop in a barnstar (only the second I've given, and probably should be giving out more of these). Randy Kryn (talk) 18:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	For diligence in insistence on film-history accuracy. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:38, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

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There needs to be a page written on the conductor David Mendoza (1894-1975). Use the Wikidata page on him to start with - https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3018440 Carliphilip (talk) 17:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

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L'Île Enchantée holograph

Hi. Do you have a source stating that it was in Rees's collection (or, better yet, where he got it)? Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

My mistake; it is at the Pierpont Morgan Library, New York, gift of Frederic Woodbridge Wilson. I will amend the entry. Rees gave the score of Sullivan's Overture di Ballo to the Library and that has his stamp on the cover Carliphilip (talk) 04:59, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

When I saw that you are not formatting your citations correctly, I assumed you were a total newbie, but you have been here for more than 4 years. Please include in your citations, to the extent available, author name, title, publisher name, date of publication, etc. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:06, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I very much wish that you and your editorial staff would drop the phrase "total newbie" and find something more literate that is commensurate with Wikipedia's purported goals. Much history and data I have learnt over decades of international research on subjects ranging from musicology (in which I have my Ph.D.) to sound recording, film history, American and British 19th-century literature, automobiles, passenger steamships, general technological history, and 17th to 19th century surgical and medical practice (the two were separate disciplines for much of that period) is in either currently inaccessible (and thus uncitable) places, not acceptable by your standards (despite your using "book" sources as outmoded as the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica for dozens, if not hundreds, of entries), and the effort of wading back through my own personal knowledge to find the sources from which it derived, often from visits to libraries and archives overseas, microfilm inspections at innumerable academic institutions, ledgers and business correspondence from defunct companies (the Kinetograph Department of Thomas A. Edison, Inc., known before 1912 as the Edison Manufacturing Company, which your entry inaccurately and simplistically combines as the Edison Studios, ceased to exist in 1918; the term only appeared on their last feature productions' intertitles as The Thomas A. Edison Studios), and personal interviews on many subjects I made in the past.

That I had to fight through Wikipedia some years ago to be permitted to finally correct the entry on Audrey Munson by going to an uncheckable secondary source simply because it was in a published book using an author's assessment, rather than a citable contemporary primary source of a readily-accessible online 1915 trade journal I had at hand (The Mivung Picture World) was particularly frustrating. I could only ascribe my difficulties to some people at Wikipedia who had a fixation on Audrey Munson because of her unusual and ultimately tragic life and they couldn't bear to have her principal claim to fame (supposedly being the first non-pornographic female nude in a motion picture) shot down. (It was Margaret Edwards in Lois Weber's 1915 film Hypocrites.) I couldn't care less about her personal circumstances; I wanted to correct a blundering error apparently borne out of repeated fables and sentimentality rather than a wish for accuracy.

Wikipedia's entry formatting is confusing and about as user-unfriendly as I have seen, aside from my innate distaste for computer "language", so I try to copy existing formatting from other entries and tweak it to suit your dictates. In the present instance, I graciously acknowledged my mistake and corrected it according to appropriate scholarly practice, to the point of giving you considerably more than your bare requirements as well as explaining the reason for my note, and I was more than a little surprised to receive your lecturing response rather than an acknowledgement of an easily remedied error, which I was rechecking anyway. I am a diligent researcher, even explaining the reasons behind my own grievous mistakes rather than correcting and saying nothing about the process, as I daresay most of your contributors do. And now you have a correct entry reflecting information that is much newer than what you had, even though it is still twenty-seven years old. It's at least better than the forty-year-old citations you had, of which some of your reference links have disappeared behind "404 Error" displays.

A slightly more sensitive and less overtly familiar tone in Wikipedia's inquiries and responses might achieve better results than offhand finger-wagging. I don't know you and you don't really know me, though now you may know my methods and some of my temperament. I and many others would appreciate a more courteous and less clumsily brusque response than what I received in order to continue contributing. Thank you. 2603:7081:1801:CFF3:908E:5DB:E60F:8EF (talk) 09:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

My further mistake: it is the Moving Picture World, not Miving. My apologies. 2603:7081:1801:CFF3:908E:5DB:E60F:8EF (talk) 09:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

There is no editorial staff here, just volunteers like you and me. Now that you've sent me on a wild goose chase about Terry Rees, when you actually meant Ric Wilson, I'm not impressed by your research and attention to detail, so I don't think a little finger-wagging was out of place. If you have a Ph.D., you should be able to provide a bibliographic citation to your sources rather than just throwing in a url that doesn't lead anywhere. You don't need to know any particular format -- I'm happy to reformat -- but you should add the bibliographic details that you would add to any research. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:10, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

SSilvers -

If you wish to batter me and my work personally, I'm equally unimpressed by your manners. I think Rees, who was a very gentle and kindly man and immensely helpful to me, would have been appalled by your tone. If you think I sent you on "a wild goose chase" about Rees, that was your choice to pursue it or not; I did not originally mean "Ric" Wilson, as you seem to imply. You brought attention to my error, which is part of the Wikipedia process; I duly corrected it and gave a reason for my mistake. I investigated the error rather simply by going back to the IMSLP entry, which noted the score had been scanned by the Morgan (as was Rees' score of the Overture di Ballo, which is stamped with his name inside). I went through that and found the catalogue entry, which only lists the immediate provenance and nothing more. I provided the URL link to the Morgan catalogue entry, which I was unaware would not work; if that was improper, please let me know. (Many URLs on Wikipedia don't work, in my experience; that is one of the problems of digital referencing.) For all either of us know, Wilson (with whom you seem to have been on intimate terms) may have acquired the score from Rees in the first place, as Rees bought so much Sullivan material over the years which he just didn't make known. You could adopt a less aggressive stance with those of us who make honest mistakes, admit them, and amend them. Do you have an original inventory of Rees's former collection that went to the British Library in 2006? I daresay there might be one there, which as you know received the bulk of his holdings in 2006. When I was Archivist at the George Eastman Museum we had "reception inventories" for motion pictures, and often provenance did not make it into our catalogues or were otherwise buried as we changed computer entry systems so often, adding and subtracting fields in the process. It was a major headache, and only solvable if the reception catalogues were kept, but they often were misplaced or disappeared.

And if you want to bandy names about, I also knew Arthur Jacobs rather well, and his biography of Sullivan is not without errors, even in its revised edition. I also regularly work with David Russell Hulme, whom I first met in 1984 and am visiting this summer. But such things really are immaterial, aren't they?

If you are going to be at this year's Music in Nineteenth Century Britain conference, where I am delivering a paper on three hitherto lost operas by Julius Benedict, we might meet and speak on more civil terms. I think all of this has been rather unfortunate, for which I take some responsibility. I respond very badly to "finger wagging", as I expect you do as well. But kindly don't assail people you don't know personally, and I will endeavor to do the same.

Respectfully, Philip Carli Carliphilip (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I have no desire to be unkind to you. If you wish to understand how to cite sources in Wikipedia, this may help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Footnotes#Footnotes:_the_basics All the best, Ssilvers (talk) 18:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

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Recent edit reversion

In this edit here, I reverted some information that appears to be a violation of our copyright policy.

I provided a brief summary of the problem in the edit summary, which should be visible just below my name. You can also click on the "view history" tab in the article to see the recent history of the article. This should be an edit with my name, and a parenthetical comment explaining why your edit was reverted. If that information is not sufficient to explain the situation, please ask.

I do occasionally make mistakes. We get hundreds of reports of potential copyright violations every week, and sometimes there are false positives, for a variety of reasons. (Perhaps the material was moved from another Wikipedia article, or the material was properly licensed but the license information was not obvious, or the material is in the public domain but I didn't realize it was public domain, and there can be other situations generating a report to our Copy Patrol tool that turn out not to be actual copyright violations.) If you think my edit was mistaken, please politely let me know and I will investigate. S Philbrick(Talk) 00:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The edit I added was from a source that had already been used in part verbatim in the entry to begin with, viz. the Canadian Encyclopedia, which was even footnoted. Whoever wrote the original entry did not read far enough to notice that their assertion that Bourdon was conductor of the Montreal Symphony "for a number of years" was completely untrue. I assumed that because an earlier part of this article had been copied word-for-word from its source - as many Wikipedia articles are, often without thought, proper independent research, or even bare effort - that my insert was simply following established practice. I suggest you read over the earlier quote from the Canadian Encyclopedia in the article and compare that text with its source to see what has already been put into print. Carliphilip (talk) 03:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I do not mean to question the integrity of Wikipedia itself, but the fallibilities of a number of its contributors, who sometimes oft-repeated "facts" which scholarship (which is sometimes unavailable to them) has since disproven. I dislike inaccuracy as much as any Wikipedia editor and take considerable time to check over and refine anything I contribute. I hope my comments indicate both my unhappiness with some contributions and my respect for this platform. Carliphilip (talk) 03:40, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

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