User talk:Caferatte89
Sik vs Sek
[edit]Hi there Caferatte89, thanks for all your contributions to the Penang Hokkien (PgHk) article. It's obvious that it's a topic we're both very passionate about. As I have plans to add content and make improvements to the article, I'd like to make sure we have an understanding so that we won't clash in future. Recently we've had a dispute over some content and I'd like to give an explanation and seek your views.
I agree that 色 (TL: sik; POJ: sek) is definitely not a loanword, I also agree that it is pronounced as /sek̚/ in PgHk. However, I don't agree that the rhymes /ek̚/ & /eŋ/ are reductions of /iɪk̚/ & /iɪŋ/ in PgHk.
I notice that your explanation follows the format of one I wrote previously which explains that /ɛn/ & /ɛt̚/ are reductions of /iɛn/ & /iɛt̚/. However, I feel that the situation isn't the same for /ek̚/ & /eŋ/. While /ɛn/ & /ɛt̚/ are the more common pronunciations, /iɛn/ & /iɛt̚/ are still occasionally heard in PgHk, particularly in careful speech.
As far as I can recall, I've never heard /iɪk̚/ & /iɪŋ/ being spoken in PgHk, whether in casual or careful speech. These pronunciations definitely occur in other Hokkien speaking regions as you have mentioned such as /ɕiɪk̚³²/ or /ɕiak̚⁵/. However I don't think they exist in PgHk which only has /ek̚/ & /eŋ/. In this way it differs from the Zhangzhou dialect on which it is based, perhaps this information could be put under the Differences from other Minnan dialects section? As you have said, the pronunciation is similar to and perhaps a result of Teochew influence.
Provided that I'm not mistaken on this, I believe that /ek̚/ & /eŋ/ are the legitimate PgHk pronunciations and not simply reductions and this is the reason why I deleted your explanation.
To answer your question "what do you mean by loanwords?", I must refer to the spelling chart at the bottom of the Speak Hokkien Campaign page which I'm sure you're familiar with. The modified Tâi-lô system used by the Penang Hokkien Language Association is the system currently used throughout the PgHk article, admittedly as a result of my own efforts.
The PgHk TL system uses sek for 色 & sêng for 成 similar to POJ to reflect the actual PgHk pronunciation /sek̚/ & /seŋ/. In this way, it differs from the original TL which uses sik & sîng which better reflects the pronunciations common in Taiwan /ɕiɪk̚/ & /ɕiɪŋ/.
Perhaps this peculiarity of the system is a source of our disagreement.
To return to your question about loanwords, because ek and eng are used in the PgHk TL system as mentioned above, ik and ing are reserved for /ik̚/ & /iŋ/ which are used in loanwords and onomatopoeia which can be seen in the spelling chart, such as tik-tia̍k (Tic Tac) and ríng-gǐt (Ringgit).
Sorry for the long read. I hope you understand where I'm coming from, if I wasn't clear please feel free to seek clarification. Please let me know your views on this matter and once again, thank you for all your hard work to improve the PgHk article, I hope we can work together on it more in the future.