User talk:Axiomac

Jasenovac concentration camp

G'day and welcome to Wikipedia! Your edit to the Jasenovac concentration camp article has been reverted, as you deleted reliably sourced information and inserted a patently inflated figure for the number of victims. Please don't do that again. Have a great day and enjoy editing. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:34, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

G'day.

I will send you more detailed informations in the following message.

Author is Professor Dr. Gideon Greif, chief researcher at the Holocaust Institute Shem Olam in Israel, is an Israeli historian who specializes in the history of the Holocaust, especially the history of the Auschwitz concentration camp and particularly the Sonderkommando in Auschwitz.

Greif spent four years examining archives in research of the genocide in fascist Independent State of Croatia, in which he affirmed a number of more than 700,000-800,000 Serb victims in Jasenovac.

Links:

https://www.amazon.com/Jasenovac-Auschwitz-Balkans-Gideon-Greif/dp/B07N1JPKZJ

https://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?yyyy=2019&mm=02&dd=01&nav_id=106124

Another source is the following newspaper articles from the New York Times:

- July 12, 1948: The Times referred to Jasenovac for the first time while describing Yugoslavia's arrest of some agents of the defeated Croatian Ustashe:

"A third [arrested Ustasha - J.I.] was Ljubo Milosh, described as commander of the Ustashi concentration camp at Jasenica [Jasenovac - J.I.], where more than 800,000 persons perished during the war."

- October 1, 1972: In an article on the Yugoslav government's response to terrorist attacks by Croatian Ustasha exiles, the Times again stated that 800,000 people were murdered in Jasenovac. This article is most helpful in understanding the Holocaust in Croatia, how it was dealt with in Communist Yugoslavia, and how the Times has, since 1991, misinformed readers. Emperor's Clothes has transcribed the first six paragraphs and three later paragraphs from the article. Here are the first six: [Excerpt from 1972 New York Times starts here]

"Amid the dismal swamplands at Jasenovac, a small town southeast of the Croatian city of Zagreb a graceful concrete monument suggestive of hands raised in an appeal for mercy looks out over grass-covered mounds that neatly conceal the remains of one of the death camps of World War II.

The Jasenovac camp was operated by the Ustashi, the Fascist movement that gained power in Croatia in 1941 through collaboration with German and Italian invaders of Yugoslavia.

As many as 800,000 people - mainly Serbs, Jews and gypsies but also Croatian and other opponents of the Ustashi - are believed to have been shot, hanged clubbed to death or drowned in the nearby Sava River during the war years before the Ustashi fled from advancing Yugoslav and Soviet troops.

Cheers. Axiomac (talk) 11:15, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Web links (New York Times Website):

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/10/01/archives/yugoslavs-assail-croat-dissidents-denunciations-of-the-ustashi.html

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia, Sept. 25—Amid the dismal swamp lands at Jasenovac, a small tiwn southeast of the Croatian city of Zagreb, a graceful con crete monument suggestive of hands raised in an appeal for mercy looks out over grass covered mounds that neatly ciönceal the remains of one of the death camps of World War II.

The Jasenovac camp was operated by the Ustashi, the Fascist movement that gained power in Croatia in 1941 through collaboration with Ger man and Italian invaders of Yugoslavia.

As many as 800,000 people— mainly Serbs, Jews and gyp sies but also Croatian and other opponents of the Us tashi—are believed to have been shot, hanged, clubbed to death or drowned in the nearby Sava River during the war years before the Ustashi fled from advancing Yugoslav and Soviet troops.

The transformation of the Jasenovac death camp into a memorial park, with only a small musicant to give ?? some insight into the camp's grim history, seems to symbol ize an effort by the postwar Yugoslav authorities to let the wounds of wartime fratricide and atrocities heal for the sake of a united country. Axiomac (talk) 11:44, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One source (I haven’t checked it’s bona fides) and a source from 1948, versus a dozen more recent academic sources that agree on about 100,000. 800,000 is a very WP:FRINGE view, long abandoned outside Serbia and the RS. We do not include fringe views on WP. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will soon send you dozens of other academic sources, all of which speak and write about over 500,000 victims in Jasenovac.

I don't think it's professional to focus only on one type of opinion. It would then be logical to insert larger ranges in the number of victims, because this way you discard a large part of academic and other important sources, testimonies, and other primary and secondary historical sources. Axiomac (talk) 06:33, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What it is, is patently ridiculous. The widely accepted Yugoslav population loss (not including demographic population loss, is a bit over a million. That includes all the combat losses and killings and massacres by all sides. How on earth can that be the case if 800,000 were killed at Jasenovac? It’s ridiculous. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:47, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Today I will send you dozens of official historical sources, so you estimate and decide if it's hilarious.

Cheers. Axiomac (talk) 07:04, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote “ridiculous” not “hilarious”. All further discussion of this matter should take place on the Talk:Jasenovac concentration camp page. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:24, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, my writing mistake.

Ok, I'll continue the discussion on that page. Thanks. 212.200.181.158 (talk) 14:24, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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--Joy (talk) 14:51, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

G'day.

I will send you more detailed informations in the following message.

You can make the changes, so that I would not make a mistake in the procedure.

Author is Professor Dr. Gideon Greif, chief researcher at the Holocaust Institute Shem Olam in Israel, is an Israeli historian who specializes in the history of the Holocaust, especially the history of the Auschwitz concentration camp and particularly the Sonderkommando in Auschwitz.

Greif spent four years examining archives in research of the genocide in fascist Independent State of Croatia, in which he affirmed a number of more than 700,000-800,000 Serb victims in Jasenovac.

Links:

https://www.amazon.com/Jasenovac-Auschwitz-Balkans-Gideon-Greif/dp/B07N1JPKZJ

https://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?yyyy=2019&mm=02&dd=01&nav_id=106124

Another source is the following newspaper articles from the New York Times:

- July 12, 1948: The Times referred to Jasenovac for the first time while describing Yugoslavia's arrest of some agents of the defeated Croatian Ustashe:

"A third [arrested Ustasha - J.I.] was Ljubo Milosh, described as commander of the Ustashi concentration camp at Jasenica [Jasenovac - J.I.], where more than 800,000 persons perished during the war."

- October 1, 1972: In an article on the Yugoslav government's response to terrorist attacks by Croatian Ustasha exiles, the Times again stated that 800,000 people were murdered in Jasenovac. This article is most helpful in understanding the Holocaust in Croatia, how it was dealt with in Communist Yugoslavia, and how the Times has, since 1991, misinformed readers. Emperor's Clothes has transcribed the first six paragraphs and three later paragraphs from the article. Here are the first six: [Excerpt from 1972 New York Times starts here]

"Amid the dismal swamplands at Jasenovac, a small town southeast of the Croatian city of Zagreb a graceful concrete monument suggestive of hands raised in an appeal for mercy looks out over grass-covered mounds that neatly conceal the remains of one of the death camps of World War II.

The Jasenovac camp was operated by the Ustashi, the Fascist movement that gained power in Croatia in 1941 through collaboration with German and Italian invaders of Yugoslavia.

As many as 800,000 people - mainly Serbs, Jews and gypsies but also Croatian and other opponents of the Ustashi - are believed to have been shot, hanged clubbed to death or drowned in the nearby Sava River during the war years before the Ustashi fled from advancing Yugoslav and Soviet troops.

Web link (New York Times Website):

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/10/01/archives/yugoslavs-assail-croat-dissidents-denunciations-of-the-ustashi.html

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia, Sept. 25—Amid the dismal swamp lands at Jasenovac, a small tiwn southeast of the Croatian city of Zagreb, a graceful con crete monument suggestive of hands raised in an appeal for mercy looks out over grass covered mounds that neatly ciönceal the remains of one of the death camps of World War II.

The Jasenovac camp was operated by the Ustashi, the Fascist movement that gained power in Croatia in 1941 through collaboration with Ger man and Italian invaders of Yugoslavia.

As many as 800,000 people— mainly Serbs, Jews and gyp sies but also Croatian and other opponents of the Us tashi—are believed to have been shot, hanged, clubbed to death or drowned in the nearby Sava River during the war years before the Ustashi fled from advancing Yugoslav and Soviet troops.

The transformation of the Jasenovac death camp into a memorial park, with only a small musicant to give ?? some insight into the camp's grim history, seems to symbol ize an effort by the postwar Yugoslav authorities to let the wounds of wartime fratricide and atrocities heal for the sake of a united country.

Cheers. Axiomac (talk) 06:40, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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