User talk:Assault11

Wikimachine's RFC

He filed an RFC in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jiejunkong. You are also included. Please go to the place to address his personal attacks.--Jiejunkong 19:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks for the reminder. Assault11 23:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

One official duty is to respond to his attack in Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Jiejunkong#Response. If you endorse my summary, sign under "Users who endorse this summary:". Also next time if somebody files RFC against you, you need to write such a summary for your supporters to endorse.--Jiejunkong 23:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I didn't know you had a fight with User:whlee, who seems to be rule-conforming. But anyway, I work alone and trust nobody here. I think you are doing the same thing.--Jiejunkong 23:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I've made a response. The RfC is technically flawed because it is done in a way that assumes we are a single entity (e.g. sockpuppet), which obviously shows the accuser's bias in that regard.

Personally, I have nothing against Whlee. I do admire his (genuine) interest in the history of Northeast China, particularly for Manchu history and other Tungusic tribes of the region. But what I cannot agree with him is his views on certain issues, e.g. his definition of "Chinese" is the same as that of user:Nlu's, which essentially equates to Han-only. At times, I simply have a hard time understanding what he's trying to get across half the time, mostly due to his below par English skills, which might have contributed to some misunderstandings.

Anyways, keep up the good work. Assault11 01:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Wikimachine's RFC is another rule-breaking action and the admin must cancel this one, which horribly combines many other user's (e.g.,User:Wiki pokemon) editing into the charges against me. If the admin doesn't cancel this one, then I learn something about this en.wikipedia again. BTW, it seems that all English-speaking people ignore the request to respect local people's naming convention which is already used for 60 years. They are blatantly selfish. If this is the case, I am going to do the same thing in zh.wikipedia by citing this case as the basis. For example, 漢城 was changed to 首爾 in year 2005, the year before last year!!! It is ridiculous for zh.wikipedia to give 2-year old name 首爾 priority over 漢城 if en.wikipedia refuses to give 60+-year old name 東北 priority over 滿洲. (Moreover, I am sure 漢城 is more popular than 首爾 in modern time. 漢城 returns 2,340,000, while 首爾 only returns 566,000.--Jiejunkong 01:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think all English-speaking people ignore local people naming convnetion and wanted to use Manchuria. In contrary, I believe most will use NE China if they know the fact behind Manchuria and NE China, and I believe most knows NE China(because it is self identifiable) and not Manchuria. The reasons some English-speaking people uses Manchuria I believe is (1) They thought it is proper (2) They did not know it is historic (3) Anti-China trying to be funny. It is undoubtedly clear that NE China is the modern term use by governments, universities and news organization everywhere in this world, at least in US. The only exception maybe Korea (I am guessing). I noticed that Korean uses Manchuria is a very different way. They use it like people normally would use the word Asia. My guess is that they have some interest in the area (historiographical, territorial, ...etc), or maybe they are just use to using the word like that. Nevertheless, they are not using it in a way consistent with the rest of the world, certainly not the way a dictionary would describe. That may be the reason why there is fierce oppostion coming from Koreans, simply because they are too use to using the word Manchuria their way, and in a short time cannot adjust over. Of course that is not to say they can insist on their version on the English Wikipedia. English usage of Manchuria is very clear, NE China is Enlish is also very clear. Accordingly English Wikipedia will eventually have to use NE China. Aren't we all now trying hard to educate people? Of course we need to use wikipedia rules to enforce changes from those die hard, stubborn people.

Wiki Pokemon 22:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

To Wiki pokemon, you perhaps underestimate the power of bias against mainland Chinese in the English speaking world. Although the biased users can no longer ask CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC to rename northeast/northeastern China into Manchuria again, they won't respect the fact and will continue to follow their own POV. In particular, college students are dangerous. They have no technical knowledge, but they have time, computer, Internet connection, temper and courage to do whatever wrongdoing they believe in. I think mutual treatment is a fundamental aspect in diplomacy. There is nothing wrong with equality. 《論語》言：“以德報怨，以何報德？”--Jiejunkong 06:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

已建議對等處理，不亢不卑。見zh:Talk:首爾#en:Template:History_of_Manchuria。我不高人一等，也不低人一等。--Jiejunkong 02:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

如果en.wikipedia admin的決定是把相當一部分東北人認為是侮辱詞的Manchuria, Manchurian強加到這一部分東北人頭上，我就把zh:Talk:首爾#en:Template:History_of_Manchuria這段貼到zh.wikipedia的社區進行討論，希望你能作個證人。--Jiejunkong 03:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Jiejunkong, this might not be such a good idea, because it probably will not work. Plus we don't work with an attitude like them. Just keep up with reliable sources and wikipedia rules. I believe it will work. My advice, maybe you need to keep a more compose argument. But you are doing a great job.

Wiki Pokemon 21:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about zh.wikipedia only. This won't change anything in en.wikipedia. In zh.wikipedia, many decisions are made in a baseless manner, and some of them unnecessarily favor non-Chinese-speaking users due to our out-of-date 仁義道德, which westerners don't respect at all. Freewill, selfishness and equality are fundamental features of the modern culture.--Jiejunkong 07:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

仁義道德 is not so fasionable anymore. I don't think people emphasize it too much. Maybe it is for adapting to the modern culture. 以德報怨, this is not an easy concept to execute. 好心没好报 seems to be more true. Of course, most people still have decent conscience, until interest comes into play. Overall if a society is an open system, then..., I think you know the result. Objectivity and straight forwardness is a good thing. But there are many ways to deal with different situations. 孙子兵法 seems to suggest using the least direct, least disruptive, and least destructive methods first. Just guessing, I did not read that book.

Wiki Pokemon 18:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi，今天一個日本人又出來發言，此人懂點History of Korea, History of Japan，就是沒看到有哪怕是一丁點History of China方面的貢獻。你猜他說什么？“滿洲”對他沒有任何冒犯的地方。有意思，“滿洲”這詞本來沒有貶義，就是二戰時日本人把這詞給搞臭的，這回倒像沒事人一樣了。“滿洲”作為過期詞匯被當地人抗議使用，倒反而成了當地人的aggressiveness了。再往後，此日本人又說出了連朝韓極端民族主義分子現在都不敢大聲宣稱的所謂“高句麗是純粹的韓國史”這種已經被靺鞨史證明是錯誤的謬論的東西，此人對中國歷史是無知的，而很多英語國家的人對中國的了解水平也比他好不到哪里去。前面我發出警告過，en.wikipedia的規則從來都是留下缺口的，不要寄希望于這些人能作出正確判斷。我的個人看法主要和zh.wikipedia有關，zh.wikipedia以后如果在選詞上有什么爭議的地方，應該參考其它語言維基的作法“對等處理”，而不應該搞什么自我中心的“仁義道德”。“對等處理”是平等對待別人，而“仁義道德”是把對方貶低或把自己貶低。替別人著想，但人家不知道或者不領情，等于白搭。--Jiejunkong 07:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

我看第一先把自己的利益保好，然后只要別故意的害人，那就对得起自己，对得起人家。Wiki Pokemon 04:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

人家看不順眼的就是你已經用了60年的現代名稱（整整三代生育周期之前的事，整整一代人都死光了，還死抱著不放），這些人包括韓朝日米的相當多的用戶。就連涉入的華裔管理員都替你作了決定，傾向于“滿洲”而不是“東北”，理由是“東北”這個名字變化太大（怪事，“北京”“南京”變得更大，為什么就沒事？這不就是借口么？）而且en.wikipedia很依賴他來處理這件事，所以只要他反對，這事是沒有希望的。此人編輯中國歷史條目還是有genuine的真心的，但是他大概認識國民黨軍東北部隊的個別人，也許是滿洲國的軍隊里投降國軍的人員，喜歡用“滿洲”稱呼東北，所以此人比較認定“滿洲”不是個貶義詞，說什么他都不信，而且正好zh.wikipedia有一個叫“滿洲虎”_{（刻意叫這個名字，而不叫正常的說法“東北虎”）}的鮮族人_{（該用戶自己承認不是滿族，只是鮮族）}要恢復“滿洲”稱呼，于是這對他來說更是有了旁證了，所以你別想說服他。我在zh.wikipedia的作法，從來就不是要害人，而是人人平等，言而有據，中立表述。最好是“無一字無來歷”（黃庭堅所言），有根據就好，走正常途徑就好。--Jiejunkong 09:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

One more thing. RFC states that "This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users." It is obvious that there are different disputes and with multiple users(including Assault11 and me). So you need to make clear the above fact and claim the illegitimate nature of the RFC. They have no case. Wikimachine is just tying to play punk.

Wiki Pokemon 22:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

In Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Jiejunkong#Outside_view_by_eDenE, this user claimed that he studies "at University of Waterloo, where nearly half of students are Chinese. The word Manchuria is very common in fact and many Chinese uses Manchuria to describe where they come from." I am in California and I don't think many Northeast Chinese students will do this kind of self-introduction. I really doubt that nowadays Northeast Chinese students know the word "Manchuria". Maybe such a student says "I am from Northeast China", then somebody lures the poor Chinese student by saying "Oh, do you mean Manchuria?", and the poor guy says "Yes" by politeness (因為他不知道“滿洲人”在好萊塢文化裏意味著“被洗腦人”). What do you think about the authenticity in the user's words?--Jiejunkong 04:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC) BTW, this user did a lot of editing in wikiproject Korea, but not in wikiproject China. Maybe China's history is a tough potato, even we Chinese cannot handle it all, let alone foreigners.--Jiejunkong 04:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Aha, have a look at Special:Contributions/Edene again, I just figured out that 這個所謂的多倫多加拿大人不是白人，他努力給人以他是中立白人的印象，但這是錯覺，可他并沒有撒謊，因為他從頭到尾沒有說他是白人。他到底是什么人，看他的編輯和真實投票就知道了，哪有白人只編輯關于那個半島國家的文章的？而且他說他把相關爭論的文章都看了一遍，很少白人會有這個興趣。世界上有一種人既有侵略性、又會玩貓膩，呵呵。--Jiejunkong 04:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't even believe half a sentence what that guy said, whatever his background. Anybody can say anything they want if they don't need to provide proof. This is a joke.

Wiki Pokemon 22:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, my remark is that a student in University of Waterloo is not necessary a westerner. He could be a foreign student. And his country of origin can be identified by his wikirecords.--Jiejunkong 04:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is much to worry about for this RfC. There are so many things wrong with the overall presentation, I don't even think a user reply was necessary.

As for Han Cheng/Shou Er, I don't really care what Koreans name their city. If they want it to be Shou Er in Chinese, fine. At least give us Dongbei Ren the right to name what is our homeland.

About user:Edene's "outside view," I agree, his testimony is flawed (regardless of his ethnicity). The situation in Canada and the United States are pretty much the same. Think of Canada as merely another California, only with a large landmass. I have a few good friends (most being Dongbei/Beifang ren) that live in Toronto and been there a few times myself. True, the Golden Horseshoe area of southern Ontario has a very large Chinese population, especially in the Greater Toronto Area (e.g. Markham). But most of the local Chinese are southerners (Guangdong/HK/Taiwan/etc.). His comment about "Manchuria" being a "very common" term is a joke. When you ask someone where he's from, no Northeast Chinese in their right minds would tell you "Manchuria." They either say: 1) China 2) Northeast China 3) (insert city/province), China. Honestly, Manchuria is anything but common here in North America, I have no idea what these guys have been smoking, lol. What a joke.

As you might've guessed, I don't trust any of the third party editors involved in the RfC, for obvious reasons. All of them are invited by user:Wikimachine, and most are likely to be Koreans and/or his associates anyways. I mean, "Manchuria is very common in fact and many Chinese uses Manchuria to describe where they come from"?! That's pretty desperate. I bet he probably knows more Dongbei people than us Dongbei ren combined LOL. Assault11 02:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

ha ha, the inconsistent C-guy is funny. They filed charge against both of us because they think we are the same user. Now the C-guy tries to use so-called "canvassing" to block our talk---okay, now they switch to the conclusion that we are different users, but the RFC filed against a single user is still there. Man, this RFC is such a parody. I suggest that the inconsistent C-guy makes himself a standard and ride on it. He is too volatile in terms of his ethical standard.--Jiejunkong 04:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW, User:Wikimachine is guilty of "canvassing" because he calls for very help from all his buddies.--Jiejunkong 04:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The best way to go about doing this is just strictly using facts and Wikipedia rules. There is no need to deal with "people" directly. By using facts and rules, they can't do anything just because they want it. We do have facts and rules on our side. They do not.

Wiki Pokemon 21:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree to your point that there is no need to deal with "people". But no Chinese user can touch the page Goguryeo now because the "people" being discussed here coordinate their efforts to block any Chinese editing, see these users' talk page for the physical proof of blatant coordination in en.wikipedia. Unlike them, my main interest is zh.wikipedia, this has nothing to do with changing the en.wikipedia. A similar analogy would be their talking about ko.wikipedia, if this is the case, then I think it is fine. But they blatantly coordinate in en.wikipedia and try to change many articles of the history of our hometown. This kind of aggressiveness is rare to see in any wiki.--Jiejunkong 08:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I know. There is really nothing much you can do in Wikipedia. I don't see any short term solution. We can only believe in the Wikipedia philosophy that in the long term things will be corrected.(It takes me a few minutes just to type the one sentence above.)Wiki Pokemon 04:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you look at this Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hwando_(fortress). Wiki Pokemon 01:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Protect this page: List of recipients of tribute from China

I have done some edits in this article to reverse the imbalance of the article. Please protect this article as I am busy most of the time.

The edit: The Chinese Tributary system is a submission to the Chinese state. For example, the tributary system operated in its fullest form in the Qing treatment of Korea. The Korean court used the Chinese calendar, sent regular embassies to Beijing to present tribute, and consulted the Chinese on the conduct of foreign relations. The Qing emperor confirmed the authority of the Korean rulers, approved the Korean choice of consorts and heirs, and bestowed noble ranks on Korean kings. The Korean envoy performed the kowtow (complete prostration and knocking of the head on the ground) before the Qing emperor and addressed him using the terms appropriate to someone of inferior status.[1]

With Kind regards,

James collins123 18:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello

Please check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:History_of_Manchuria

Perhaps we can figure out a solution. Regards. Laoganma (talk) 04:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

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