User talk:AspenDecker
Welcome!
[edit]Hi AspenDecker! I noticed your contributions and wanted to welcome you to the Wikipedia community. I hope you like it here and decide to stay.
As you get started, you may find this short tutorial helpful:
Alternatively, the contributing to Wikipedia page covers the same topics.
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Happy editing! HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 23:39, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I looked over the deleted page and I don't think you were editing in bad faith. While I don't think the article had an encylopedic tone I also don't think it was vandalism or spam. We typically don't host "How to" manuals here. I think perhaps you have had a negative first impression of this project but I really hope that you continue to contribute. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 23:40, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Given that how-to manuals are not on topic on this project I am not going to restore the article. However if you like I can e-mail you a copy of it so that you can host it somewhere else. You clearly worked hard on it and perhaps it can be useful elsewhere. If you want this just make sure you have an e-mail setup in your preferences and then just ask me. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 23:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- @HighInBC: E-mailing the user the content of their Howto essay so that they can host it somewhere other than Wikipedia is a good idea. I agree with you that AD is probably well-intentioned, but well-intentioned users can be disruptive. They clearly have a misguided notion of what Wikipedia is about, and unless they want to want to contribute in a constructive manner, they don't belong here, and it's better for everyone if they understand that sooner rather than later. @AspenDecker, please do not send me any more e-mail. I don't reply to them. The only reason I deleted your post to my Talk page was because you didn't sign it, and unsigned threads will not archive. Take care.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: Isnt the entire point of wikipedia to be open platform and also supposed to be a "community" of editors working together to maintain this website for the world to use? I sure dont feel very welcome with your comments and telling me to essentially buzz off. Its not very inviting and i wish you would have some basic courtesy for a fellow "wannabee" contributor just trying to learn and grow to become a part of this community. So far, my experience has been terrible with 3 measly edits. And with admins such as yourself being rude to me, how can you expect anyone to want to join this supposed community? just sayin. you should really chill out man. i just want to learn how to do this and get it right. how about guiding me to that end vs what you are doing now? AspenDecker (talk) 00:41, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- My principal role is to protect Wikipedia from disruption. Others may be willing to assist you. For example, you can ask questions at the WP:Teahouse. You should focus on what I - and to some extent HighInBC - am telling you about your draft rather than being so upset about what you perceive to be "unwelcoming" treatment. You can do whatever you want with the content of your draft, but don't try to put it anywhere on Wikipedia. Your edits to the article Swimming pool sanitation were terrible because you have no notion what constitutes reliable sources or the correct encyclopedic style. If I were you, for now I would concentrate on small edits to different articles. For example, the first edit you made to Abd al-Wahhab Abu Zayd was a good grammatical correction.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:55, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: See being nice isn't that hard. I appreciate you at least providing an explanation of your though process vs just taking out your frustration on me based on your history with spammers. Obviously, I was in draft mode for that article so i could get it done correctly. I was also communicating with another admin in that other article you mentioned about that small edit to ensure it was proper, so clearly I am trying to learn. I had no intention of publishing the new full article until i had an admin review for approval. I figured I would teach MYSELF how to compose an entire article, do citations, and figure out the wiki formatting by diving into a full article. Thats how I learn. I dont learn by doing little edits to topics I know nothing about. But you were so quick to judge me and didn't give me a chance at all and just deleted my DRAFT with no warning. Doing little edits on topics I have NO passion for, or experience in, is not something I am interested in writing content for. I would appreciate the OPPORTUNITY to work on a draft article of a topic i know and just adjust the writing style to get it right before publishing it. I am more than happy to change the style, tone, citations, etc. but if you cant allow me to just work in draft mode, how can i improve my skills as an editor? I feel you should at least allow me to work in draft mode to figure things out. If I published without approval, i can see you getting upset, but i believe i have demonstrated my ability to write content and that i can take time to add VALUE to wikipedia if you would give me the opportunity. I am not just some foreign country jerk=off spamming for adult websites or whatever you have history with. So, again, thank you for explaining your position on things, but i would appreciate your authorization to at least work in draft mode until i get the formatting and everything correct. I will read through those wiki guides you and HighInBC provided so i can adjust, but i am afraid to do anything with the chance you might just wipe out my work again so quickly. Please advise. AspenDecker (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- To WP:INDENT properly in discussions, you need to make sure that your post is one level further to the right than the previous post. I've corrected yours. The editor you talked to about the other article is not an administrator. Their advice was good as far as it went, and although you tried to comply with their instructions, unfortunately your edits were still unacceptable, as I stated, partly because of the non-encyclopedic tone and partly because of the sources you used, which, at best, were unreliable. As for your draft, one does indeed have greater liberties with drafts than with articles, but that doesn't mean that drafts are immune from deletion. You'd have to convince me that what you would be working on would eventually translate into an appropriate contribution to Wikipedia. How about you read the material and then let me know generally what you have in mind for a draft? I'm not usually the mentoring type, but I confess to feeling a bit guilty for the harsh way in which I treated you.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: I would have to convince you? You sound like such a control obsessed power tripping admin. You need to relax. I am literally communicating with you and being as transparent as possible to convey my intentions, but you are sounding like you are more interested in being adversarial than supportive. I am not going to "pitch ideas" to you prior to writing a draft. That just sounds so controlling man. You can clearly see i want to write about pool stuff. I know it inside and out so i just need to figure out the best way to write this so it falls into the correct guidelines of wikipedia. I started the draft with 30+ sources, and was just getting started. I was planning on finding a ton more to ensure sources were balanced across as many quality sites as possible, but i was not given the chance to complete things. Also, there are other articles that DO actually provide howto info, such as on this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_pool#Sanitation on closing a pool. Which is why I assumed mine would be ok. So, I have to learn what is appropriate and what is not by just going through other articles and by working with admins like you. But everything still seems very subjective based on whichever admin reads it. It's frustrating for me as a new editor. I can learn, but again, I need to feel comfortable about writing a draft, having time to compose, clean up, and get approval. I dont want to chance writing anything if this is the kind of swift judgmental actions i am going to get on a freaking draft article. There are lots of way to spin the pool maintenance stuff, such as history of pool maintenance, types of pool maintenance, etc. as seen on other topics. So, i am open to make adjustments. It's not hard, but dealing with aggressiveness and intolerance is hard. So, respectively, please advise on next steps. AspenDecker (talk) 15:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- I was giving you an opportunity to work with an experienced editor to avoid violating Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. As a newbie who appears to have very little sense of what Wikipedia is about, you reject that with rather inflammatory rhetoric. It's no skin off my nose. I wasn't looking forward to the extra work, anyway. Just don't blame me or others if your actions get you in further trouble. I won't be responding anymore to you, so please don't ping me.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: I would have to convince you? You sound like such a control obsessed power tripping admin. You need to relax. I am literally communicating with you and being as transparent as possible to convey my intentions, but you are sounding like you are more interested in being adversarial than supportive. I am not going to "pitch ideas" to you prior to writing a draft. That just sounds so controlling man. You can clearly see i want to write about pool stuff. I know it inside and out so i just need to figure out the best way to write this so it falls into the correct guidelines of wikipedia. I started the draft with 30+ sources, and was just getting started. I was planning on finding a ton more to ensure sources were balanced across as many quality sites as possible, but i was not given the chance to complete things. Also, there are other articles that DO actually provide howto info, such as on this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_pool#Sanitation on closing a pool. Which is why I assumed mine would be ok. So, I have to learn what is appropriate and what is not by just going through other articles and by working with admins like you. But everything still seems very subjective based on whichever admin reads it. It's frustrating for me as a new editor. I can learn, but again, I need to feel comfortable about writing a draft, having time to compose, clean up, and get approval. I dont want to chance writing anything if this is the kind of swift judgmental actions i am going to get on a freaking draft article. There are lots of way to spin the pool maintenance stuff, such as history of pool maintenance, types of pool maintenance, etc. as seen on other topics. So, i am open to make adjustments. It's not hard, but dealing with aggressiveness and intolerance is hard. So, respectively, please advise on next steps. AspenDecker (talk) 15:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- To WP:INDENT properly in discussions, you need to make sure that your post is one level further to the right than the previous post. I've corrected yours. The editor you talked to about the other article is not an administrator. Their advice was good as far as it went, and although you tried to comply with their instructions, unfortunately your edits were still unacceptable, as I stated, partly because of the non-encyclopedic tone and partly because of the sources you used, which, at best, were unreliable. As for your draft, one does indeed have greater liberties with drafts than with articles, but that doesn't mean that drafts are immune from deletion. You'd have to convince me that what you would be working on would eventually translate into an appropriate contribution to Wikipedia. How about you read the material and then let me know generally what you have in mind for a draft? I'm not usually the mentoring type, but I confess to feeling a bit guilty for the harsh way in which I treated you.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: See being nice isn't that hard. I appreciate you at least providing an explanation of your though process vs just taking out your frustration on me based on your history with spammers. Obviously, I was in draft mode for that article so i could get it done correctly. I was also communicating with another admin in that other article you mentioned about that small edit to ensure it was proper, so clearly I am trying to learn. I had no intention of publishing the new full article until i had an admin review for approval. I figured I would teach MYSELF how to compose an entire article, do citations, and figure out the wiki formatting by diving into a full article. Thats how I learn. I dont learn by doing little edits to topics I know nothing about. But you were so quick to judge me and didn't give me a chance at all and just deleted my DRAFT with no warning. Doing little edits on topics I have NO passion for, or experience in, is not something I am interested in writing content for. I would appreciate the OPPORTUNITY to work on a draft article of a topic i know and just adjust the writing style to get it right before publishing it. I am more than happy to change the style, tone, citations, etc. but if you cant allow me to just work in draft mode, how can i improve my skills as an editor? I feel you should at least allow me to work in draft mode to figure things out. If I published without approval, i can see you getting upset, but i believe i have demonstrated my ability to write content and that i can take time to add VALUE to wikipedia if you would give me the opportunity. I am not just some foreign country jerk=off spamming for adult websites or whatever you have history with. So, again, thank you for explaining your position on things, but i would appreciate your authorization to at least work in draft mode until i get the formatting and everything correct. I will read through those wiki guides you and HighInBC provided so i can adjust, but i am afraid to do anything with the chance you might just wipe out my work again so quickly. Please advise. AspenDecker (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- My principal role is to protect Wikipedia from disruption. Others may be willing to assist you. For example, you can ask questions at the WP:Teahouse. You should focus on what I - and to some extent HighInBC - am telling you about your draft rather than being so upset about what you perceive to be "unwelcoming" treatment. You can do whatever you want with the content of your draft, but don't try to put it anywhere on Wikipedia. Your edits to the article Swimming pool sanitation were terrible because you have no notion what constitutes reliable sources or the correct encyclopedic style. If I were you, for now I would concentrate on small edits to different articles. For example, the first edit you made to Abd al-Wahhab Abu Zayd was a good grammatical correction.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:55, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
I am not sure if you are receiving my messages here. Since i am a newbie, I am learning as I go. I just dont want to lose my work. I dont need to host it somewhere else, but i still dont understand how ALL of my edits, including a simple edit on pool sanitation was removed for spam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AspenDecker (talk • contribs) 23:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Honestly I am having trouble understanding @Bbb23:'s interpretation of things. Perhaps they are seeing something I have not noticed. Again I am happy to e-mail you the content. I will do that right now. By the way you should sign your messages by add ~~~~ to your messages so people know who posted. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 23:53, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I am more interested in being able to edit AT ALL on wikipedia. I have now edited 3 times, and been deleted every time. Same type of quick and deadly stuff like Bbb23.. just killing things, accusing me of spamming and no response thereafter. So, how can i become a contributor if this keeps happening? I would appreciate you emailing me whatever you can yes. That would be great. But more importantly, i need to figure out what i am doing wrong here. My time is important, but not if these guys keep killing me with no guidance. any advice would be great.AspenDecker (talk) 23:58, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Also, if i need to change my tone to encyclopedia style, i can make those changes. I just need to know the right direction so i dont keep wasting my time just to have things deleted. AspenDecker (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- You might find this useful: Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. It is a policy that attempts to describe all of the things that Wikipedia is not. Essentially we are an encyclopedia and that is all. The learning curve here is a bit steep, hopefully you will encounter more patience going forward. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 01:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @HighInBC: Thank you so much for being cool and helpful. I truly do appreciate your help and patience with me as I figure this out. I have learned a lot already just from this experience, but hoping to get Bbb23 onboard with me at least practicing in draft mode to get an article formatting done correctly before publishing. Hoping he understands how I learn things and that i really only wish to write about things i know and have some passion for and not little edits on random topics i know nothing about. Fingers crossed he sees my need and can be accommodating. Thanks again for everything. I will read through all of the guides you both have provided to become a better editor. AspenDecker (talk) 14:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- I am going to be frank, creating a new article from scratch that meets the standards here is hard. I have been editing here for 16 years, and I have failed at this over and over. The very existence of a topic needs to not only match the expected tone of an encyclopedia but it also needs to meet our notability requirements.
- I have given up on creating articles myself. I have found that I can contribute by finding unsourced information and finding citations for it, or removing the information if I cannot. Even when I do everything correct people get upset about things being remove and sometimes angry users show up on my talk page threatening to block me. That being said I have never actually been blocked and have always managed to work things out.
- I am sure you can find an area where you can shine. You are always welcome on my talk page if you need advice, or a 3rd party to look into a situation. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 22:13, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Offer to help
[edit]Hello AspenDecker,
I am an administrator and have talked with Bbb23 and I think that he will step back a bit. He has encouraged me to try to help you because I have a lot of experience working with new editors. If you will agree to stop criticizing that administrator, then we can move on and shift to discussing how an acceptable Wikipedia article gets written. What do you think? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Cullen328: Hey Man! I am super appreciative for you taking the time to review and respond to my post. I 100% agree to chill on things w Bbb23, as I am simply looking to be a part of the Wikipedia community. I have no hard feelings, i just couldnt determine his motivations and if i was even going to be able to have any chance to learn and grow my Wiki skills. What would be next steps on things? I am open to whatever schedule you have and thanks again for reaching out! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AspenDecker (talk • contribs) 19:29, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- AspenDecker, I am not going to ask you to edit articles about other topics because it seems clear that you are interested in sharing your expertise about pool maintenance. What I want you to do to start is to read Wikipedia's three interrelated core content policies, which are Verifiability, the Neutral point of view and No original research. Please read them until you understand them, and feel free to ask questions. I recall that you said that you thought that Swimming pool sanitation has major problems and you decided to write a separate article about Swimming pool maintenance. I get your thinking but that is not the way we deal with such issues on Wikipedia. We do not create two parallel articles on essentially the same topic. We improve the existing article until it better conforms to the Policies and guidelines, and maybe that includes changing the title of the article. So, please write for me three or four or five paragraphs explaining the problems you see with the existing article. No vague generalities. Please be specific. Either ping me or leave a message on my talk page when you want some feedback. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:33, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Cullen328: Thanks for agreeing to train the newbie, but I don't see why the criticism of this admin has to stop. An admin should be able to tolerate criticism. And if they cannot, they shouldn't be an administrator. Wikiman2718 (talk) 02:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
- Wikiman2718, I am not saying that this particular administrator ought to be immune from criticism. I am saying that I do not consider it useful for this new editor, who is clearly not yet familiar with Wikipedia's policies, guidelines and behavioral norms, to get into an dangerous brawl with an administrator. You have two years of experience so if you want to assemble diffs showing an ongoing pattern of problems, go for it. My advice was specific to AspenDecker. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:09, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Cullen328: Thanks for agreeing to train the newbie, but I don't see why the criticism of this admin has to stop. An admin should be able to tolerate criticism. And if they cannot, they shouldn't be an administrator. Wikiman2718 (talk) 02:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC)