User talk:ArielGold/Etiquette2

Archives
08/2007

After the recent AfD nomination of CVU, I'm going to open this up to general viewing and opinions for improvement, and instead of aiming this at general template use, I think it could provide valuable, and insightful reading for new Recent Changes patrollers, who may not understand some of the underlying guidelines and policies that they would run into. It would also be helpful for general patrollers who may wish to use it as a source of reference. I'll look forward to any thoughts or comments from the community.

Please remember this is an essay; it is neither policy, nor guideline, but simply a lot of information gathered by a number of people that relates to the process of fighting vandalism, and performing recent change patrolling duties. Please review the talk archives if you'd like to see the early thoughts from some of the administrators who have assisted with this project.

Thank you, ^Ariel♥Gold

September 2007

Some comments. First of all great essay! I think it covers a lot of the bases nicely, though it is a trifle long and could probably be tightened up a little. Here's my random thoughts:

1. Sometimes, there are extenuating circumstances for not starting at level 1, especially when dealing with a prolific vandal. If someone makes a rash of 4 vandalizing edits in a row, I'm likely to start at least at a 2. If she's tried to do a considerable amount of damage, (i.e., a registered user who goes straight to defacing user pages), I might consider the 'only warning' template. One thing I've found quite helpful is to simply escalate by 1 the last level of the previous warner. Then when it's over level 4, regardless of number of warnings, off to AIV she goes.

2. While a personal touch is good, there is also the concern of 'do not feed the trolls'. A sign that they're 'getting' to someone may be just what vandals are looking for. Thus I strongly support the use of templates as not providing any 'validation'. That being said, I do greatly like the idea of personalized templates. It's not that this person frazzled you so much you just had to write him a personal note how he hurt you, but rather, you're offering a smile and a wink and treating him with a little extra courtesy. Templated courtesy.

3. One thing I've found in assuming good faith is that it's nice to not just call everything vandalism. When someone edits a page with this program sucks, don't buy it!!!, that's a POV edit. And my warning to them is specific to POV. When someone says and one time a mouse came up and bit him on the cheek, there's no reliable sources, and my warning involves adding uncited material. For BLP there's a warning too, which I use especially for he's really gay type comments, because technically, it might be a good faith edit. If someone adds the word poop (and believe me, they will), that's an edit test. There's a wide variety of helpful, specific uw templates, and vandalism should only be used when none of the others apply. It also shows that you spent some time considering their edit, not slapping a catchall template on them.

Just my two cents. Looking forward to seeing the article in its final form and discussing it further!  :) All the best ~Eliz81^(C) 05:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah it is on the long side, I know that for sure, lol. After two years of watching, I guess I had too much to say on the subject lol. As far as warnings, there is a clear policy, and so far, it doesn't stipulate between types, so I honestly think that four warnings need to be given by non-administrators. If an admin sees something, and chooses to block without 4 warnings, that is fine, but for advising new(er) recent change patrollers, I honestly believe that abiding by the policies is the best practice, even though there are times I'd have loved to use that "only warning" thing too, lol. Personalization is best done when it is not an obvious intentional situation, as I state, and I advocate and encourage templates when malicious intentional disruption was the edit in question, that's also stated in the essay, but perhaps I could make that more clear. I don't think personalization is feeding trolls, but rather, assuming good faith and not "berating" them with an impersonal warning. I also go into quite deep detail regarding what is and isn't technically, vandalism, so I feel that area is covered okay, but again probably needs cleaning up some. I used the uw-vand template just to illustrate the difference in template vs. personalization, but thinking about it, perhaps that comes across as saying that's the only template, I'll be clearer on the varieties and add them to the appropriate sections. Thanks for reading it through, Eliz! ^Ariel♥Gold 05:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

some comments also.

1. Warning messages should be grouped by month under a heading like ==September, 2007==. this facilitates seeing if the problem is escalating and if the person has been warned before. it also indicates that things will be followed up, and that they are not comments that may be ignored. (this point is essential--its a matr of follow what is now standard use & much appreciated by admins).

   Hi DGG! I'm glad to see you again! Yes, I completely agree, and I've requested on Martin23's page that he add that functionality to MartinBot, as ClueBot does it, but Martin doesn't, leaving Martin's comments often relegated above a current header. I always do this, and I'll often move the header above Martin's comments so they are in the proper place.

2. The comment above about numbering is very much to the point. If the matter is serious, i often start at level 3.

   That's excellent to know that you support escalating warnings on first offense, and I completely understand doing that, but my point was that a whole lot of times someone does that, and reports a user, the user will not be blocked at AIV, and the reason given will be "has not received full set of warnings". Obviously this differs from admin to admin, but it seems to be the norm, no matter what the destruction level. I'll look at re-writing that section to explain a bit more, while still suggesting the policies be upheld. I really don't think that if a user has never had any warnings at all, (not a repeat offender), they should be threatened with a block on first offense, no matter what it is. Obviously this is different for repeat offenders, but at the same time, Shared/School IPs have to be considered "new offenders" because there is no way of knowing if the person on the other end has ever visited before.

3. I have sometimes found it more useful to give a personal warning, saying something like: Stop this at once, I am not a machine but a person, and I'm writing this by hand. People know about bots and the like, and ignore them.

   Definitely.

4. some users regard cute drawings as inappropriate. hey probably should be used only for purely personal messages, their use for warning messages can be taken as a sign of lack of serious intent, like elementary school teachers use stickers on student work.

   Hrmm, I'm not sure I agree with that, I have never once had anyone say the custom warnings I use (and I don't use them all the time) are inappropriate. I use them for first offenses, not repeat offenders, and for AGF mistakes. I've had many vandals come and apologize following this, and I feel they are worth using to encourage the user to stop without a cold template. I'm not talking about destruction, but the "Hi my name is sam! I like pie" edits. Like you mentioned a few weeks ago, some of these users are children, and should be handled differently, without templates. My custom notices are extremely useful for those situations, I think, and really, if the offender is a kid, they're going to be more useful than a template. The last warning template I have is a small version of the first warning one, but with a different image, and it is definitely serious, it says "keep going and you're going to get blocked, seriously". That it has an image doesn't make it any less serious. But I realize that not everyone thinks alike, so on this we can agree to disagree. :)

5. when the standard templates are used, they can be supplemented. I do this by adding a line underneath in bold italics. (plain text has no impact after the message).

   Yes, and for users of Twinkle, you can add that information into the "additional text" field. Very useful.

6. "vandalism" "spam" "bad faith" and the like are words to be avoided whenever possible.

   Thanks, I'll change the term bad faith in the essay, and the other terms.

7. Useful phrase: "this is intended as friendly advice--I want to help you keep the articles.

   Definitely, especially for things like copyright violations, notability issues (CSD-type articles).

8. you need to discuss the concept of not templating the regulars. If we make a mistake, just tell us so. We'll understand perfectly well.

   That's in there, but as DES mentioned (in the archives) a lot of time, templates for things like AFD discussions are useful, as they include all the links, etc., definitely not warnings, and that's covered in the "Regulars" section.

9. Perhaps you need to discuss how to respond to young children and to people with obvious developmental problems--I never use standard notices here--ever. I might say: "Sorry, but I have to delete the article. first you have to become famous, and then someone will write an article about you."

   That's in there as well, under "First time offenders". If it is obvious that the editor in question is a child, great care should be taken, and sensitivity used, when using any warnings or notices. Consider placing a hand written note, with pictures, rather than using standard templates. Children can be very sensitive, and should be treated with respect, and instruction, rather than admonishment. While knowing for sure if an editor is a child is difficult, it is better to err on the side of caution, rather than assuming bad faith(will change that wording)..

   Would you suggest it be expanded, or moved to a different section, or some other way changed? I added that after you commented on it a few weeks ago.

10. "Congratulations! You've won yourself a short break from editing the encyclopedia! Go down to your local shop, buy yourself a crate of Bud, and have a drink - you deserve it!" there is no nice way of saying to take a break. I would personally be offended at this one, it mentions a commercial project, and surely you mean a six-pack, not a crate. Much better to say. "I'm tired now, and i'd like to continue this tomorrow."

    Heheh I actually was surprised to see that block message, but it is funny. I agree it probably not appropriate to all users, and the custom block message I'd make would not have drinking in it lol. Good point, and I'll change that and remove that notice.

11. If anyone takes anything I do in a bad way, i always apologize right or wrong, at least for least for not being clear.

    Most definitely, without question.

--hope this helps . DGG (talk) 05:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

As always, I'm glad to have your input on it again! I did not want to bother you on your talk page, but I'm glad you didn't forget about the project, thanks DGG! ^Ariel♥Gold 16:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Table of Contents

I changed the essay to break down the areas for ease of navigation, but the TOC is just out of control. I checked the "magic words" page, and I can't find any way to auto-hide the TOC, it would help if it displayed hidden automatically, and expanded on demand, rather than the other way around. ^Ariel♥Gold 18:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks greatly go to Tra who found a template to do what I wanted. Thank you! ^Ariel♥Gold 20:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments from Mike

Ariel, great essay. I've been reading it on and off for a couple of weeks now, as I saw notice of it on your talk page, or something. Anyway...

Something I'd like to see is an example of a "personalized template." You talk about them, but do not provide an example of either creating one, or how it would work. So, to that end, I present you with an example. It's almost a straight-up copy of the real {{uw-vand1}} template, but I altered the wording (as a first-pass attempt, feel free to change that), changed the image (it should look familiar), and put it inside a box. Take it, copy it, make use of it, etc. That can then be put on a person's talk page by putting: {{subst:User:MikeVitale/WarningBoxes/uw-vand1|optional article|optional additional text}}. Also, if you want to make it more personalizable (such as variables for the font color/box border color/background color, we can go down that road, too. I can, obviously, create more warning templates along the same lines.

The text paragraph of "Reformatting text size" is indented. Should it be? Same for "Introducing factual errors."

 Done Mistake, I went from indented "sections" to real sections and a shorter TOC. (TOC was about 1.5 pages long, so I changed to bolded headers instead of official sections, and intdented, but I didn't like that, so I changed back and asked about how to shorten the TOC).

There is nothing following the "which produces the following" text in the "Editing User pages" section aside from a "See also" link. Looks like something is missing.

 Done (Example removed, "produces the following" removed. Template link can be clicked on to see result)

In the "Personal attacks" section, you say "others may be occur". Did you mean "others may occur", or "others may be occurring", or something else entirely?

 Done "Others may occur". Again, ty.

There's a space before the <ref> tag in the "Using the proper level" subsection.

 Done

In "Reporting", there's a period, then (WP:AIV), then another period.

 Done

Also, you reference a "following table for categories", but the table appears to be missing.

Huh... I wonder what that's supposed to link to... I can't find the page that lists the categories of violations. I'll remove it I guess.

I think that's all. Looks great!

--MikeVitale 21:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is so funny, because I had an example in it, and in fact, I have a whole set of personalized notices and warning templates, see User:ArielGold/Boxes2, but I think either someone suggested I remove it as it might feed the trolls, or I removed it because it was making the essay too long. The version with my example in it: can be seen here.

The rest of the stuff is just fallout from me re-arranging things, trying to trim it, and changing from simply bold and intented sections to actual headers, and stuff that I just didn't catch, proofreading your own stuff is not ideal, lol. So thank's, Mike, that is excellent you caught all of that, now I just have to figure out what was supposed to be there, lol. I'll fix all that. ^Ariel♥Gold 00:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, review my fixes pretty please, and I will have to try to find whatever "category table" I was thinking of, like, with Twinkle, when I report there are a bunch of different options, so I need to figure out where that is, or go back and look at an earlier revision of this page to see what I had there... until I figure it out I just changed the sentence. ^Ariel♥Gold 01:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments to Mike

I had a look at your uw1 box. Yes, uw means user warning, but as Ariel said, level 1 is trying to AGF. Therefore, I think that "This is your first warning" is conveying the wrong tone. The other thing I would caution you on is the use of the flower. You're clearly a guy with a name like Mike, and that particular flower is rather effeminate. Now, I have no idea if you're gay, I don't care, and to me, it's completely irrelevant. However, even when you're assuming good faith, the kind of people that typically make the vandalising edits are less than tolerant, may well make assumptions about you, and will cause you to be a target. Given that this level of notice is intended to inform, and not antagonise, I would caution you to think carefully about using the template as you have it. Think not just about whether or not you can take it, but also about if using it is actually going to cause more disruption to Wikipedia than it is intended to assuage.  — Timotab ^{Timothy (not Tim dagnabbit!)} 06:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, levels one and two assume good or no faith, and no mention of warnings, or blocking should be mentioned. (See the footnotes for the Bureaucrat's comments about this.) Naturally, since that flower is my own sort of "Signature" image, I liked it, lol. And probably Mike made it for me anyway, well, I was conceited, and assumed so, lmao. Timothy my dear, did you look at all my custom boxes? Feel free to critique those as well! ^Ariel♥Gold 07:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Timothy. I assure you that there is very little in there that I would actually use. I did simply make that box as an example for Ariel. That's precisely why the flower is in there -- it's kind of her thing.  :) Also, just by way of mentioning, if you read my user page, you'll find out that I'm married. So if I am gay, I'm either deeply in the closet, or I don't know it yet.  ;-)

Regarding the text of the userbox I created for Ariel to use...As I mentioned above, I really just wanted to change around the default text given by the {{uw-vand1}} template, provide another example for her, and let her take it and use it on her own. I know I'm not all that great with writing prose, so I wanted to get something "out the door" quickly that would show the basic design, and how to do it. That's more her thing. I also know that Ariel's not a programmer, so that's why I also mentioned that we could make it more user-configurable together.

No harm, no foul. --MikeVitale 14:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I knew you made that for me! ~*Giggle*~ And, I know Mike doesn't do a lot of RC patrolling, so that's precisely the reason I wanted his view on this essay, because it would be coming from someone who really wasn't familiar with it, and he could tell me how helpful it could be or how to improve it, based on his experience as a general editor. So I really appreciate it, but also appreciate experienced users as well, because there are things maybe I just haven't thought of. But Mike, what do you think of all my custom boxes? ^Ariel♥Gold 14:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ariel, I haven't had a chance to review your custom boxes yet. Lotsa honey-do's to do this weekend. So I might not get to 'em until Monday. Sorry. --MikeVitale 15:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ariel, I agree wholly with what you are trying to do, but I do not think either the wording or the images are quite right right yet --but for different reasons. The images--well, they're cute. They might be great aimed for children--I very much would in fact like a special level 1 for children--they are the sort of images elementary school teachers use on stickers. I do not think they'd really give a serious enough impression otherwise--especially to teen-agers. (nothing to do with sexuality) For the text, I do not think you made it milder. Looking at uw-vandal1, the old one had "some of your recent edits did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted or removed" ; the new one has " however your recent edits to Test article were unhelpful, and have now been removed." Unhelpful is even more negative than "did not appear to be constructive. " And , personally, I really dislike "Have a great day" at the end of negative comments--it strikes me as insincere and deliberately sarcastic. I can't do images myself, but as for the text, I suggest something really simple:

"Dear ArielGold, We're always glad to have constructive editing, but your recent edits to Test article did not seem helpful, and have now been removed."

That's really all that needs to be said. Anyone would understand and not get offended beyond the inevitable. DGG (talk) 00:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

As always, you're completely right, DGG. I'll have to do some tweaking of my templates, as I completely see your point, but I just hadn't noticed it that way before. I actually use my custom "smiley face" when I think it is a kid, (like edits that are "test" types, where the spelling or grammar is especially bad, or someone specifically types something like "john is 8 years old and lives at mom's but she's mean!") Perhaps I'll make my others have the Wikipedia Globe instead, still a bit of customization, but not "silly" or WP:DFTT like smileys might be. And I'll reword my warnings, too. Feel free to give me feedback on the rest of my boxes if you want (link is above), or have time, as I honestly look forward to all your advice and suggestions, which is why I've not moved this to mainspace yet, I'd like to get it to be as good as it can be first! Thanks again, as always DGG! (And Mike, don't work too hard on that "honeydo" list! lol) ^Ariel♥Gold 19:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I tell ya what, that honey-do list kicked my butt this weekend! We're starting a minor remodeling of our kitchen (taking down the wallpaper and repainting. Not a major undertaking.) This weekend, it was the "taking down the wallpaper" bit. What a PITA! Anyway, that's done, and my lawn is mowed, and now I'm going to go turn into a couch potato. Maybe watch some football or something. I'll be back at it tomorrow, and I'll take a look at those userboxen you've created at that time. --MikeVitale 00:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

LOL Poor Mikey! (Actually that sounds like a royal pain and I don't envy you, lol) ^Ariel♥Gold 05:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree your images are useful in appropriate cases--and I think I will start using them when called for. More details on the new ones forthcoming tomorrow. DGG (talk) 02:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I have two boxes now specifically for children (suspected children) and both convey the intent with the picture, the first with a really cute (okay maybe it seems like a school sticker, but to me I just love the happy face with glasses, lol) smiley and the "last warning" with the unmistakable "Oh no!" face. The rest, I have changed to either globes, or some form of icon that communicates the issue at hand. Now, I'd like to just note that I do not use these boxes all the time. Not by a long shot. I use them occasionally, when after evaluating someone's contributions, or extent of disruption, I decide the user is simply new, inexperienced, and not malicious. For obvious nastiness, I send in Twinkle to do the reports, 1, 2, 3, 4, and I don't bother with my templates, as I don't think they'd be received well. But I just like to have them as an option, for those times that you truly think this is someone who signed up intending to help, and made some simple mistakes that we've all probably made. Then, I really feel strongly that these are more useful than a standard template, and will make the editor feel welcome to keep trying, which they are. So, all that being said, I'm looking forward eagerly to seeing what you think DGG, you always have such excellent input, I genuinely appreciate all your suggestions. In fact, I copied and pasted your suggested re-wording, lol. If you want a nowiki list of my templates I can give that, I realize I didn't transclude them onto that page, they were subst'd. I had two Boxes pages before I decided to re-do them, but that just seemed redundant, so I dumped one and moved them all to this page. Anyway, I'll be here, thanks DGG! ^Ariel♥Gold 07:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Custom boxes

I've updated them! They are now found here: User:ArielGold/Boxes. Feedback welcome! ^Ariel♥Gold 06:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Those boxes are super nice for new users who really don't mean harm and may be saddened (can't think of the right word) by accusations of being a vandal and the like with the normal templates. They follow WP:BITE perfectly. Now's the time to make them into templates so users can subt them. Phgao 17:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Phgao! That means a lot, and I'm so happy you've taken the time to come peek at this little essay, as well! Feel free to let me know any ideas or criticism you have of it! (And all my boxes are in template form, so I just subst: them )^Ariel♥Gold 18:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

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Check this out these are very nice gizmos indeed brothercanyouspareadime (talk) 22:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC) has given you a dove! Doves promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day happier. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a dove, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past (this fits perfectly) or a good friend. Cheers!