User talk:Apollo Creed

Serbs and Croats

Let's get something clear. Tesla was a Serb and i agree with that. Boscovich was Croat/Italian to say he was Serb is Serbian POV. Andric was Croat by blood but was a Serbian by choice.

If people have some link to a backgtound they should be mentioned on Wiki. You should see how many people are linked to being Jewish and will openly mention it in the first paragraph..even if only 1/4 Jewish...eg Harrison Ford etc....

Maradona has Croatian blood from his mothers side, Marco Polo is debated as being either Croatian or Italian or even both, Haydn is from an Austrian town were mostly Croats live and his Croat background would be probable. Denise Richards, John Malkovich etc...do have a Croatian parent.

I know you're a very proud Serb and dislike all things Croatian but please don't accuse anyone of fabriaction when you don't know all the facts.

Take Care Jagoda 1 04:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Croatian Flag

At first I thought that the Serbs were the aggressors in the Balkans. Boy, was I ever wrong. After doing some research I learned that you guys are Nazis who mercilessly killed Serbs living in Croatia during the Second World War. How the hell can you people live with yourselves? How the !@#$ can you wave that flag that does not appear to be much more different than the one in WW@? SHAME ON YOUS!!!!!!!!!!

Apollo Creed 04:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jagoda_1"

When I was going to post a response on Jagoda's talk page, I noticed your post. I have to say that I was surprised with the antagonism and judgementalism your post seems to contain. Allow me to elucidate some points;

'The Flag' The current flag of Croatia is more similar to the one used by the Banovina of Croatia in the first Jugoslavia. The Coat of Arms on the flag and the crown are centuries old - see [[1]].

'WWII' Your judgement on the basis of collective guilt ignores;

the high contribution of Croatian Partisans in the struggle against fascism - Tito and many prominent anti-fascist were Croats;
that most occupied Europe had indigenous fascists and quisling regimes that committed crimes. W.r.t to the Croat-Serb conlfict during WW2, pls look up Milan Nedic and the Banjaca concentration camp of Serbia. Belgrade was also the first capital to be declared Juden frei;
the crimes of the Chetniks were matched in ferocity to those of the Ustashi - it was a fratricidal conflict fuelled by the respective ideologies of Greater Serbia and Croatia;
There were trials for the respective crimes at the end of WW2 by the Partisans involving extra-judicial killings such as the Bleighburg massacre.

Thus this leads to three Conclusions:

Crimes from WW2 do not justify modern day killings - such a mindset only perpetuates the cycle of violence - it is akin to saying that Ethiopians would be justified killing Italians and destroying Italian cities b/c of what happened during WW2;
Justice was already served with trials at the end of WW2;
The existence of Nazis and massacres by both sides during WW2 means that according to your logic, both sides have the right to kill each other.

Finally, you can make your point about Marco Polo and Andretti w/o having to resort to ethnic pejorative.

Regards, croatian_quoll 06:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

APOLLO CREED wrote:That link with the history of the Croatian coat-of-arms and flag that you provided was a really shity counter to what I stated about the present Croatian flag being practically the same as the Ustasha one in WW2. The Croat who made that site thinks that the general public (non-south Slavic people) is totally ignorant when it comes to Croatian history.

Well, since the site's purpose is to provide historical information on the origin of the Croatian Coat of Arms, the implicit assumption is that non-slavic peoples aren't knowledgeable (ignorant as you put it) hence the rationale for the sites existence. : )croatian_quoll 16:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

APOLLO CREED wrote:When I google “Ustasha flags”, I got this site that shows the official flag of the Croatian Nazi-Puppet State in WW2 (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/hr-1941.html). Listen, if I took a picture of that flag and walked down the streets of New York and asked an individual with no little knowledge regarding Croatian history what flag was on that picture, I can bet you my @#$%ing life that they would say that is or looks exactly like the flag of Croatia.

The same logic would apply if the showed the flag of the Banovina of Croatia within the first Yugoslavia, or flag of the Triune Kingdom, or the coat of arms of the Socialist Republic of Croatia. By extending your logic, the Croatian flag, in addition to being "fascist", would also be "Hasburg Imperial", "Hungarian", "Serb Royalist", and "Socialist".

The fallacy of your argument is illustrated by the following rhetorical question: if the coat of arms was so fascist, why would the first Jugoslavia adopt it, or the Partisans after WWII? croatian_quoll 16:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

APOLLO CREED wrote:THAT IS EXACTLY WHY THE !@#$ THAT CROATIAN DUMBASS DID NOT SHOW THE OFFICAL USTASHA FLAG!!!!!!!!!! He knew if he showed that flag, his site would be even shittier than it is right now! That is why he decided to show some insignificant Ustasha flag that does not really appear to be similar to the present flag of Croatia! ADMIT IT! THE FORMER USTASHA FLAG IS WHAT THE NEW ONE IS TOTALLY BASED UPON!!!!!!!!!! !@#!!!!!

From the same website you quoted [[2]]:

Croatian horizontal tricolour of red, white and blue inherited it's colours, of course, from the Croatian coats of arms: Croatian chequered red and silver, Dalmatian blue with three golden leopards, and Slavonian blue with red field with black marten bordered with two white wavy lines, and golden star above. All of the three coats were, in fact, used in different times for all the land, as it is with the name also. Later in 19th cent. the geographical meaning of these names was finally firmly established. The land was named in 19th cent Triunar (meaning one made of three) Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia. Therefore, it is not unusual that the flag was made of all three colours.

The first time that it was officially proclaimed was in 1848 and under the influence of revolutionary movements in Europe, a simple tricolour was made. The flag was, of course, without any coat. However, it was used as local flag in a big empire, so it remained more or less internationally unknown, but it became one of the most important symbols of the Croatian people. Very often it can be seen on old postcards, most often together with Croatian coats (normally not on the flag, but from time to time as a part of the flag).

After the end of the World War Croatia proclaimed independence, and a tricolour became the state flag, again without coats. The collision with the Dutch flag didn't became, as a matter of fact, a problem, because the state was short living. After a short time, Croatia was united with Slovenia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in the State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs (not to be mistaken with the later Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians), and a month later occupied by Serbian forces united in a Kingdom under Serbian dynasty which already had annexed Montenegro. This state was then named Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, and took a neutral combination of pan-slavene colours blue white red (both Serbia and Montenegro had red blue white and Slovenia white blue red).

The Croatian flag again remained as local flag, highly respected by the people, but half illegal, as the Belgrade government tried to unite all nations into a Yugoslav nation. These efforts didn't succeed, and in 1938 a separate province (banovina) of Croatia was made. It took, as one can expect, the red white blue tricolour and in official use the coat of the province in the middle. By this time many Croatian political parties used the Croatian tricolour with their respective symbol in the middle. The best known was the Croatian Peasant Party, HSS, with a chequered red white field bordered green.

====Interpretations of the Colours====

One of interpretations of colours dating from late 19th century is Red Croatia, White Croatia, and Kingdom of Slavonia (blue). Red and White Croatia are Croatian states from early middle age, approximately in today's Dalmatia (Red) and central Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina (White).

And finally to mention an interpretation of colours of the Croatian flag made by Miroslav Krleza, a great national writer, saying that the colours represent the three symbols of Croatian history and people: blood of Croatian martyrs, Croatian peaceful lamb like nature, and Croatian devotion to God.

Zeljko Heimer, 14 October 1995

I hope you have the strength to reconsider your opinon in light of the overwhelming number of facts contrary to your view.croatian_quoll 16:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

APOLLO CREED wrote: If you Croats were ashamed of your horrible Nazi past, then you would have a flag that does not resemble the official Ustasha flag of your grandfathers. That site that you used as your counter attack just proves how many different ways there are to represent your country! Why can’t the Croatian flag have the checkerboard shield and some other colour in the background instead of the red, white, and blue horizontal bars that reminds the world of Croatia’s dark past (bright past in your minds!). I guess you people like the fact that you were Nazis who mercilessly killed innocent Serbs, Gypsies, and Jews! I’m an Italian-American and I admit that my ancestor’s country was in full cooperation with Nazi Germany. I admit that we were not with the “good-guys” and I am totally ashamed of that, unlike you people are!

I think you put too much weight on collective guilt - I reiterate the role played by:

the Croatian Partisans in fighting the fascist forces;
the role of the Greater Serbian hegemony during the reign of the royal dictatorship of the first Jugoslavia in giving birth to a movement like the Ustashi;
the extra judicial killings and trials held at the end of WWII; &
that the modern day republic of Croatia is the legal heir of the Triune Kingdom under the Habsburgs and the Socialist Republic of Croatia.

For the reason why the ri-colour was chosen as the background, see history of the flag above.

APOLLO CREED wrote:You mentioned something about how Ethiopians are not taking revenge on Italy for what occurred in the Second World War. This is because they know that Italians are truly good people, which is evident through the fate of Mussolini and the position of my nation after his death. After we (Italians) killed and hung Mussolini upside down, we joined the allies. This proves that Italians are true and good at heart. If your Ante Pavelic walked down the streets of your capital unprotected, you people would offer to protect him; act as bodyguards!

Using your logic, the trial and execution of members of the NDH government at the end of WW2 by the Partisans would show the trully good nature of the Croatian people. ; )

In your last statement, you are offering a hypothetical as the justification for your demonisation of a whole people. Such a position is hypocritical at best, racist at worst.croatian_quoll 16:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up the minor history of Serbia’s minor connections with Nazi Germany and laughed! Come on, how the !@#$ can you compare yourselves with that! JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!

The connections were not minor. See [[3]], and [[4]], and [[5]]. Is it any wonder that the allies abandoned their support for the collaborationist chetniks (despite the lobbying of the royal family and govt in London) in favor of Tito's (a Croat) partisans.

I was also not impressed by your Bleiburg counter; acting as if that was a giant Croatian killing conducted by Serbs. You even stated yourself that many Croats were partisans. By taking a look at the Bleiburg massacre article, I learned that many Serbian fascists were also killed in this massacre. Therefore, the Bleiburg massacre was a mass killing of Yugoslav fascists (Croats, Bosnians, and Serbs) conducted by Yugoslav antifascists (Croats, Serbs, and whatever)! I will admit that most Bleiburg massacre victims were Ustasha Croats, but you can’t compare that with the number of INNOCENT Croatian Serbs that were butchered. Its like comparing a drop of water to an Ocean!!!!!!!!!!

If it is a ledgerbook that you are keeping, pls also consider the murders of opponents to the hegemony of the Serbina royalist dictatorship (during Jugoslavia Ver1) & the chetnik massacres of Croats/Muslims in places like Lika and Eastern Bosnia as apart of the ethnic cleansing plan of Chetnik formations.

From the article on the history of ethnic cleansing:

At the same time, on 30 June 1941, the lawyer Stevan Moljević from Banja Luka, the main ideologue of the Serbian nationalist organization, the Chetniks, and Mihailović’s most trusted confidant, published a booklet with the title On Our State and Its Borders. Moljević assessed the circumstances in the following manner: One must take the opportunity of the war conditions and at a suitable moment take hold of the territory marked on the map, cleanse [očistiti] it before anybody notices and with strong battalions occupy the key places (...) and the territory surrounding these cities, freed of non-Serb elements. The guilty must be promptly punished and the others deported - the Croats to Croatia, the Muslims to Turkey or perhaps Albania - while the vacated territory is settled with Serb refugees now located in Serbia.[6]

It mainly b/c of this chetnik policy that the Partisans opted for a federative Jugoslavia as the vehicle for best ensuring the rights of the non-Serb nation from the threat of Greater Serbia hegemony.

APOLLO CREED wrote:I hope I have made myself clear. My name is Apollo Creed and I have just kicked your ass!

Pls do not see this debate as one of an ego struggle. Pls examine the facts presented for yourself. croatian_quoll 16:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

APOLLO CREED wrote:P.S.- don’t you dare change the subject to anything with Italy because if you do, I win. I have laid siege to your Croatia and you can’t abandon your fort during a siege!

Since you mentioned Italy, isn't the flag of todays Italy virtually the same as the one during WW2. Using your logic, that would make all Italians, including yourself a fascist. Can you see the flaw in your logic now. Cheers, croatian_quoll 16:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS: We are not medieval knights.

Knock Out

Rocky beat you by knock out and Ivan Drago killed you.....You lose big time.

All the best Apollo in the next life ahahahaha

Serious..... We all have opinions on who is to blame ...with respect to you, you have yours and i have mine. It's a touchy subject and it heavly depends on who you talk to.

Now who is right? I say nobody war is stupid and bickering on who started it all is even more stupid.

Leave it in the past i say.

I think you will agree.

Jagoda 1 23:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

War study

Good luck with your study mate. War's an interesting subject.

I think you will find war is sometimes pointless and achives little but poverty while other times it's the the only solution which gives freedom. 50/50---- in both cases innocent people suffer and pay some price. I also find it really depends who writes the book on who won and lost hahaha.

PS You seem to take great interest in Croatian pages which i find odd considering your Italian/American. Did you know the Bank of America today was once called Bank of Italia????? Italians have a rich migrant history all over the world, you should look into that, we Croatians are boring for you. I just can't understand the interest you have in us when your own background is more interesting.

Jagoda 1 03:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How Italian

Marco Polo was a "Venetian" and his origin is debated as Croat or Italian or both.

This origin debate is nothing new as you can see this bickering over Columbus too. Nobody is 100% sure. Was Columbus like most say Spanish...or as some say Italian ..or as few even say Portuguse??? Evidence is there for all theories you just have to read more and make up your own mind. Nothing can be ruled out ...so saying Polo was a GINO is silly. Sure maybe Polo and Columbus were Italian...but some proof tells you otherwise. It's not propaganda.

How can an Italian label anyone a Nazi. Italians were Nazis ...you forgot Benito Mussolini... Read up on Croat Tito and the Partizans before you label all Croats Nazis in WW2. Croat Nazis = Minority in WW2........Italian = Majority in WW2.

[ If this is the CASE then since Tito was a Croat, this proves a Croat was in charge of the Partizan forces that were responsible of the Bleiburg Massacre. Also the world questions how could a whole nation conduct a masacre that had several different parties. There is reference that fascist Serbian forces conducted the masacre but is an obvious contradiction in terms. How could Serbian fascist massacre Croatian Fascists side by side with Croatian Lead Partizan forces? Sorry doesn't jive. Don't forget that in 1945 a few hundred miles from the Bleiburg Massacre there was a massacre of 750000 Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies in Jasenovac (1941-1945). Books of reference written by French writer Edmund Paris entitled "Genocide in Satelite Croatia 1941-1945 printed in the USA copywriten 1962 published by the American Institute of Balkan Affairs. Lets not try to go back and rewrite history on wikipedia when the books have already documented this. Please reference the book in historical archives on this. Yes facts are facts but facts are always protrayed in a bias likeness. Hatred spreads Hatred but love spreads love. Please focus on the causes of in humane activities and how we as a society can move forward in peace than try to point fingers. One Croat is not better or worse than another Serb. And for that matter one person is not better or worse than another. People beware of propaganda like this. We as a world people have all suffered but lets move on and together live in peace. If the Croats and Serbs would stop trying to be so different and accept they are one in the same they could have entered the EU as a wealthy class than as separate but poor nations. Community brings strength not if someone is more Italian, Croatian, or Serbian.

--Written by a family member of Holocaust victims of Serbian Jewish origin ] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.95.82.53 (talk) 20:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]