User talk:AllOfJas

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Hello, AllOfJas!

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Happy editing! Cheers, 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Diameter etc

Just because you see many examples of incorrect usage, that doesn't make it valid. Wikipedia depends on authoritative sources and doesn't accept editors' personal experiences.

In an another article, you wrote that a game will be released for Nintendo. We don't predict the future: we wait until a reliable source says that something has already happened and only then we can report it.

But don't be discouraged: we all began by trial and error. Welcome again to Wikipedia. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dear JMF,

Sadly I can confirm that ø is incorrect and it needs to be Ø. First, it starts of with all kinds of norms, used international and locale. If we take a look at ISO 16354, there is located that the Ø symbol need to be as big as the numbers. If we place ø50 or Ø50 you see which symbol is the right one.

If we take a look at NPR 3216, there are schedules which also have the Ø symbol, not ø.

If we take a look at other norms (all payed Norms, I have them because of my job) they all use a symbol as big as the numbers.

If we take a look at NEN 114, we see on page 4 that there is again that Ø is used in stead of ø.

If you order a, say something, pipe, then mostly it is assigned with Ø50, again the big Ø. Sometimes, there is also a ø45 after that, and that is then the inside diameter. I've not found out jet if there is a norm who describes the difference between Ø and ø, because they always use Ø in stead of ø.

There is now one source used in Wikipedia, who is also using a symbol as big as the number. So they also use Ø50 in stead of ø50.

This also applies to software. If you type in ø50 in word, it automatically changes to Ø50. If you type in a diameter symbol in AutoCAD (%%c) it automatically makes Ø. If you make a new project in Revit using the basic template, it automatically makes it Ø.

I understand that you may not have the rights to view these norms, because they are payed, but if you got a good source which is not a 'fan base page' but a real norm used internationally which describes that the Ø needs to be smaller than the number, I'll be able to believe that it is correct. But for now, I think (and I have a lot of sources for that) you are wrong. Even your own sources is doing the opposite of Wikipedia.

I hope you're open for this discussion. If you have the rights to view these norms, I'm willing to give you the page numbers. These are not 'Personal Experience' but authorative sources, used in the real world.

Yours faithfully,

AllOfJas AllOfJas (talk) 16:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the size of a glyph is defined by the type designer and the user. I can make the symbol be whatever I want it to be. ⌀123, for example. Or just ⌀123 if you like. But if you search the Unicode archives, you may be able to find why the default is smaller than a zero. [But see crossed zero, which I suspect is the most likely reason.]
1. most engineers, architects, product designers use Autocad, which draws the diameter sign – in the correct shape and in an appropriate size, it doesn't use ordinary text. That is how the image at the right was made.
2. mathematicians and scientists use LaTeX, which draws the diameter sign – in the correct shape and in an appropriate size, it doesn't use ordinary text either.
the glyphs in the Unicode standard and their descriptions were chosen by product experts. Neither you nor I are qualified to second guess them.
1. Ø is not a diameter symbol. It is U+00D8 Ø LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH STROKE. It may be that some people, even many people Nordic countries misuse it as a diameter sign, but that is because it is engraved on Nordic keyboards. That it is convenient doesn't make it right.
2. U+2205 ∅ EMPTY SET is a closer approximation. But I don't think anyone wants null sign for diameter.
NPR 3216 is a Dutch standard from 1991, which I almost certainly predates the Unicode standard. We have no way of knowing how it was typeset but if it was written on a computer, they were restricted to the ISO/IEC 8859-1 character set – which has O with stroke but no diameter sign. They had no practical alternative. But that was nearly 30 years ago. History. Way back then, people used to write two hyphens because there was no mdash; nobody does that any more. People writing linguistics texts might use < and > in draft but would certainly use ⟨ and ⟩ for publication. Same applies to using an apostrophe in place of a real prime (symbol).
Autocorrect in Word does whatever you tell it to do. And Microsoft can get it wrong too.
WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. But if there is an error in a Wikipedia article, it should be corrected.

The fact remains that U+2300 is the code-point uniquely defined in Unicode for the diameter symbol, and U+00D8 is the code-point uniquely defined in Unicode for capital O with stroke. What glyph is shown for those code-points is a type-designer's choice. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]