User talk:AlexPU/Archive 1

My archived talk 1 - Year 2004

Ukrainian language

Vitay! Sorry, I hadn't noticed you're a newbie. Welcome to wikipedia and enjoy! The problem I had with your NPOV notice is that at the moment I erased it there was no mention of the dispute: neither at the Wikipedia:List of controversial issues, Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute nor at the Talk:Ukrainian language. So, from my point of view there was no dispute at the time. Remember to state your problem with the article in the discussion before you add a template. The {{NPOV}} is sort of a last resort when all hope is lost.

Now that you started to use the talk page the warning is where it should be. Perhaps you could even use the {{long NPOV}} template, it seems much better in this situation. Anyway, please state what is wrong with the article, not with some user. There are lots of unfriendly/stupid/nationalist people out here and you'd better learn to cope with them. Truth is the key here and facts are your weapons. By offending them (even if they deserve it) you want convince anyone. And stating that someone is a POV-pusher or nationalist is considered highly offensive here (not only by the persons involved). BTW, it's good to see some Ukrainians around here, this wiki badly lacks info on Ukraine. Halibutt 15:54, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

one more comment

Welcome to Wikipeda! A word of unsolicited advice... Your statement in the Ukrainian language topic to an opponent that "If you can documentally prove that Ukrainian was "being used" in USSR in the fields you specify - so do it on the page, cite. And even if you do - your anyway would be lying or misinformed because Sovdepia was purely Byzantine system of lying, hiding and falsing." is equivalent to "Prove it, except I'm not going to believe you". You won't win many arguments this way, and, as I hope you will find very soon, Wikipedia is NOT about winning arguments. You may find it useful:

• NEVER to erase ANYTHING anyone else has put in. Change article text "turtles fly" into "X has stated that turtles fly", and make sure the article text draws no conclusions: let the reader decide. If someone erases your own text "the sky is blue", reinsert it as "Y has observed that under the following conditions, the sky looks blue".
• NEVER to say or imply "My point of view is correct, yours is wrong". NEVER say samething is outrageous.
• ALWAYS to avoid politics except in an inherently political argument.
• NEVER to accuse anyone or anything, no matter how unpopular, of lying or falsifying. By doing so, too many will think YOU are the one lying or falsifying.
• NEVER use the word propaganda.
• NEVER to say "this ideology is wrong". You may find it offensive; others find yours equally so. Let ALL ideologies live side by side.

Those are, for better or worse, the items in this monastery's order-book. Good luck!! A. Shetsen 23:48, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Olex, some further advice! What you have just received is generally quite good! It applies to the gentlemen and the honest! However, there is no filter on Wikipedia to obstruct the non-gentlemen and the dishonest! And Wikipedia is far from being a monastery! While people who are honest, even if mistaken, will be repelled by the word, "propaganda," there are people here whose interests are simply propaganda. It will be your job to sort out the people you encounter. Don't be so ideological as to think that the tendencdy to propaganda doesn't exist, or that it applies with perfect evenness across nations! Keep your eyes open and be discerning! Genyo 03:49, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Mr. Shetsen, it was interesting to read your advices. Let me answer you step-by-step citing your writing.

"Your statement in the Ukrainian language topic to an opponent that "If you can documentally prove that Ukrainian was "being used" in USSR in the fields you specify - so do it on the page, cite. And even if you do - your anyway would be lying or misinformed because Sovdepia was purely Byzantine system of lying, hiding and falsing." is equivalent to "Prove it, except I'm not going to believe you".

I agree my wording was inaccurate but anyway logic. It is commonly recognized that Soviet regime was systematically hiding and destroying documental evidences of it's illegal policy. E.g. Ukrainian SSR documents on death rates and executions in 1930s are mostly burnt or stored in Moscow. As well as secret CPSU decisions on Russifying higher education in Ukraine. So millions of Ukrainians may not have appropriate documents but they would never agree that nothing happened to them or their relatives. Hovewer, there few other ways to prove that Monedula is wrong (e.g. statistics, foreign reports, comparative analysis of witness testimonies). That's what I meant.

"NEVER to erase ANYTHING anyone else has put in."

That's exactly what your compatriot Monedula is doing. Where have you been intil we put that propaganda into light?

"Change article text "turtles fly" into "X has stated that turtles fly", and make sure the article text draws no conclusions: let the reader decide. If someone erases your own text "the sky is blue", reinsert it as "Y has observed that under the following conditions, the sky looks blue".

No, sir, we must have something to start with. Lawlessness of Soviet regime and its shauvinistic national policy are internationally proven facts. While I let you dispute the statements that Ukraine is "a birthplace of elefants" or that Alexander the Macedonian was Ukrainian. If someone persistently writes that turtles fly - I will persistently oppose him.

"NEVER to say or imply "My point of view is correct, yours is wrong". NEVER say samething is outrageous."

I never did.

"ALWAYS to avoid politics except in an inherently political argument."

Since I'm a professional political analyst, let me assure you that anything is a political issue. Because politics is a "universal system of regulating social relations using mechanisms of state power". Как говорил мой военрук, "политика, она везде... Ты девушке в трусы лезешь, обещая на ней жениться - это тоже политика". So I think you're pretty demagogic in this item.

"NEVER to accuse anyone or anything, no matter how unpopular, of lying or falsifying. By doing so, too many will think YOU are the one lying or falsifying."

Again, I never did. What I'm accusing Monedula of is a brutal violation of neutrality rule.

"NEVER use the word propaganda."

No, sir, I will. Propaganda is a sholar term, not an offensive jargonism. And let us call cat a cat.

"NEVER to say "this ideology is wrong". You may find it offensive; others find yours equally so. Let ALL ideologies live side by side."

My fight against Monedula has nothing to do with ideologies. Read my writings thoroughly and you won't find that. Except one: the Wikipedia ideology of neutrality.

And most important. As I understand, all your advices are regarding my discussion notes, not contributions. So I don't think you should dispute those notes.

Also, please apply your vision of policy to other "WIkipedians" too. Be neutral and universal.

Anyway, thank you for advice. Best wishes, AlexPU

Edits to Georgiy Gongadze and the Sluzhba Bezpeky Ukrayiny pages

Hi Alex. I think there might be some confusion over my edits to the above pages. On my talk page, you expressed concern that some of my edits introduced factual errors to the entries in addition to grammatical and spelling corrections? You don't seem to have fixed the problems you found with my edits and you didn't indicate what it was that I did wrong. Can you please just give me some idea of the problems with either of them because it has me absolutely puzzled? Apart from possibly breaking some links, I'm quite sure I made no factual editing particularly since I have no position or even background on the issue. Upon review, I can see I haven't fixed all the grammar but I can assure you what I did do was grammatically impeccable although it may not seem like it to a non-native speaker. Best regards though and I hope you can help clear up the confusion. Gest 06:11, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gest, the most important error was deleting the word "supposedly" regarding the "voice of president Leonid Kuchma" (SBU article). This is a key issue of that scandal as well of modern Ukrainian history. If you study that case thoroughly, you'll see the difference. Stating that Kuchma did say those words would lead us to question why he is not yet arrested and convicted by Ukrainian or US authorities. No court has yet ruled the authenticity of Mel'nychenko's tapes. Remember that nobody is guilty unless convicted.

Your edit on Georgiy Gongadze is less problematic. I actually meant two local languages: Ukrainian and Russian. It can be seen from the subsequent text.

Actually, I also doubt your using of "overseas" instead of "abroad" but that's not a problem worth fixing. Generally, I find some of your grammar edits too academic for web English so I woudn't follow it. Let me assure you that I know the rules but don't like using them as well as milions of native speakers :). In short, I agree with the majority of your edits.

I'd appreciate your checking all my contributions for possible serious mistakes (like those I made in original SBU text). Best regards, AlexPU

Forgot to tell everybody that I contempt Mr.Kuchma deeply. So please do not consider me as advocate of his dignity (despite the fact that he's elected head of my country). Those familiar with Ukrainian politics would probably understand the reason of making this remark. AlexPU

Ahh, now I understand. To avoid making unproven allegations, it is necessary to hedge with supposedly. You are correct and the distinction must be made. The problem is that supposedly is still grammatically incorrect in that context and sounds bizarre and confusing to a native speaker and subsequently counterproductive to the goal of the article. In this case, I would suggest; publishing numerous supposed records of the President's secret conversations and calls. Web English might be OK for these talk pages, blogs or in chatrooms but it is completely unacceptable for an encyclopædic style whether it is on the web or not. Correct English, (or Ukrainian, German or any other language) with all its rules, is the objective for the articles here so even though you don't like using it, you'll need it to write a good Wikipedia article.

Also, the issue with abroad/overseas is worth addressing as you are unclear on why the change was made. True, both are adjectives as well as adverbs but only overseas is correct in the attributive position. However, I should have been bolder and rewrote it as, including spying on both Ukrainian opposition politicians and German television journalists outside Ukraine.

I'm sorry my edits strike you as academic but I am an academic and value clear, concise writing because I make my living with it. Consequently, I appreciate your invitation to proofread further contributions from you. For various reasons, I think Eastern European related articles are an important area for Wikipedia to expand upon and your input will obviously be invaluable and more authoritative if it is well written in a formal style.

Gest 16:08, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Alex!

I don't know how to reformat these things, but as you spot particular problems, I will work on you with them, even if I have to learn to do it!

Why don't you propose a p[lan of attack?

I would also propose some links and explanations for old gubernia names, and for old region names, like podillia, Slobodzhanshchyna, etc. Genyo 03:16, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Alex,

The Kyiv page looks great. Let me know when the regions page is redone. I'll loointo redirect techniques. Genyo 15:32, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ok, sport, I've tried to edit without any change of content! Let me know! Genyo 00:47, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hey, Alex! I've tried to edit what you wrote for grammar only! Let me know what you think! Genyo 00:56, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AlexPU"

Genyo 02:24, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Subdivision of Ukraine

Hi Alex. I noticed you're making a real article about oblasti, etc. How can I help? Building a navbox, maybe? Cheers. —Michael Z. 18:49, 2004 Sep 17 (UTC)

Yes Michael, it would be great. I really need help with navboxes and redirects. Also, I've messed a little at Cherkasy page and failed to correct :(. Would you please revert it to previous state for a while? As you've seen, I made a general article for these things (Subdivisions of Ukraine). But it's uncomplete yet without a table of comparison and translation, which is also ready but not placed cause I didn't know how to upload tables. Hope to add it soon. Thanks for your support. Best wishes, AlexPU 09:44, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've already fixed the name at Cherkas'ka. It looks like your browser tried to send Unicode but Wikipedia assumed ISO-Latin. I'm glad to help with the table -- let me know how. —Michael Z. 22:13, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

Hi alex. I posted your first table at Subdivisions of Ukraine. I added a column with romanized names. The second has to wait until the regions' articles titles are updated; I hope to do it tomorrow or on the weekend. In the meantime, you can see the table at User:Mzajac/subdivisions.

Okay. It's done now. I'm checking for redundant or circular redirects. I added some redirects, which might have to be updated later:

• Autonomous Republic of Crimea -> Crimean Republic
• Kryms'ka oblast' -> Crimean Republic

—Michael Z. 19:58, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)

Whew!—I simplified about 30 double-redirects and updated a whole bunch of links. Updated the links in Template:Administrative divisions of Ukraine. I left a few links with different names, where the context seemed to dictate it (e.g. a couple of links to "Zaporozhye" in Russian-oriented articles on Crimean history).

There are still many links to the old names like Poltava region. And I have to update the table at List of capitals of subnational entities another day. —Michael Z. 20:58, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)

PS: how does this look? Still needs some work, but an improvement.

File:Oblasti-test.png

Alex,

    I've started to expand the stub for the Chernihivs'ka obalst'.  Please feel free to edit!

Genyo 00:46, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

PS Thank you for working on the elections! Dai nam Bozhe volyu! Slava Ukrayini!

Glad to see you back, Genyo.AlexPU

Map of Ukarine

Hello AlexPU, I understand your english without (bigger) problems. I only forgot too many words in written english. I can speak quite well, but writing is my problem. So I will translate the map within some days to an english version. That's not a big work, but I'll please you to take a look on the version and give me some help. --Steschke 16:31, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)

Did you see the other versions?

1. Oblast Donezk hervorgehoben
2. Oblast Lemberg hervorgehoben
3. ukrainische Version

--Steschke 16:39, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)

I did a first english version. --Steschke 18:17, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)

Map looks great! Thank you. But let me point at two little bugs: misspelling of Ternopil' and Chernihiv (see list just below your map). Would you correct them? Best wishes, AlexPU 12:01, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll fix that tonight (UTC) --Steschke 12:33, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)

I fixed the bugs (I hope all). Some days ago I insert this map in the ukraine article but it was taken off very fast. Anyway, if you like to get some version with highlighed oblasts, just tell me. --Steschke 21:39, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)

List of cities in Ukraine

Hi Alex. I gave your history section a quick copy-edit; I'll have another look when I have a bit more time, but I think it looks okay. Good work.

Have a look at List of cities in Ukraine. Someone has done a good job updating all the Ukrainian names. I've found a couple of mistakes, and checked all of the English names, and put the results on the talk page. Please have a look, and correct/add/delete as necessary. When we're done, I'll merge the results into that page.

—Michael Z. 17:40, 2004 Oct 3 (UTC)

Downloaded all pages you mentioned for further analysis. Thanks for Kyiv history. Pryvit. AlexPU 20:43, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

moving this discussion to the talk page for WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions—Michael Z. 04:39, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

WikiProject Ukrainian Subdivisions

Hi Alex. I've gone ahead and created WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions. Now we can discuss this work in one place, instead of in our many user talk pages. I've taken the liberty of adding your name to the project page, and I'm going to move some of our discussion there. Please let me know what you think. На здоров’я!  Michael Z. 04:11, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

moving causes double redirects

Please fix all double-redirects listed at Special:Whatlinkshere/Volodymyr-Volyns'kyi and fix those that your moves create in the future. --Joy [shallot] 17:06, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I got these, Alex. —Michael Z. 20:46, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

Sorry guys. I actually did check for redirects, but decided that the article in question should be in that list. AlexPU

Ukrainian presidential elections

I did a bit of editing in the candidates' articles, and at Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2004. Not much so far, but let's keep up-to-date in that article's talk page. Cheers. —Michael Z. 06:41, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

Edits to NKVD

Before threatening to accuse something in POVism, I suggest to look into person's history of edits. In this particular case, I am one of the few who systematically adds factual articles about political repressions in the USSR and maintains the consistency of the category:Soviet political repressions (I added its reference to NKVD; did you happen to look into it?). As for the deletions, I deleted all what was erroneous in this chaotic babble about how bad NKVD was. In particular, deportations of tatars etc. were put into section that speak about "liberated territories", which is nonsense. Deportations deserve a special section. In fact, this is the whole article Population transfer in the Soviet Union, which shows that there was a whole politics of the Stalinist state, rather than deeds of these NKVD villains. As for explanations, I am not going to explain every nonsense an anonymous contributor adds to wikipedia. But I am pretty tolerant to other editors' point of views in cases of disputes. Like I said, I prefer to work with factual material, which, unlike various political rant, is usually impossible to contest. I believe this is the true goal of an encyclopedia. Mikkalai 17:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Good work on the Cassette Scandal article!

Good job. 68.81.231.127 12:25, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)