User talk:Ag Foghlaim/Cartlann

Earlier questions

...are available at Talk:Irish orthography

Forms of tá

Hi, Angr! I rather hoped this day would never come, but it looks like I am stuck and all my usual research channels are failing me, so you are my last resort :) As I probably already mentioned a couple million times in the past, I'm learning Irish. My main "textbook" is the Irish People web-based course, but I am slowly (very slowly!) working with the Ó Siahdail's Learning Irish, and am now on Lesson Five. This is where I got stuck. I do not know why, but Lesson Five is where Ó Siahdail introduces future tense for the first time. You know, beidh/ní bheidh/an mbeidh..., beifear/ní bheifear..., etc. The concept is, of course, quite simple, but I am having helluva time trying to determine how these constructs are pronounced. Ó Siadhail does provide pronunciation, but having seen how significantly Cois Fhairrge's dialect can deviate from Standard Irish, I am rather skeptical. You mentioned in the past that you'd be willing to help me out should I have a question that relates to Irish, but not really to Wikipedia. I am wondering if the offer still stands. Pronunciation of the constructs above, as well as of bhíothadh/ní rabhad (past tense), is what I need. Thank you!--Ag Foghlaim 18:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, there's no one single pronunciation used in all dialects, so your best bet is to just learn one acceptable pronunciation and use that. Ó Siadhail's pronunciations aren't used in all parts of Ireland, but they'll certainly be understood everywhere. If I were teaching Irish outside of Ireland, the pronunciations I would recommend are:

beidh [bʲej] (bheidh [vʲej], mbeidh [mʲej])
beifear [bʲefʲər] (bheifear [vʲefʲər], mbeifear [mʲefʲər])
bhíothadh [vʲiːhəv]
rabhadh [rauv]

Angr (talk • contribs) 22:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Angr. As always, this was extremely helpful.--Ag Foghlaim 16:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Forms of tá; cont'd

Hi, Angr! Back in March I asked you about the pronunciation of bí in different forms, to which you provided a very helpful answer. I just wanted to clarify some things about the bhíothadh form. Both An Foclóir Beag and my Collins Irish Dictionary (not to mention Irish verbs :)) provide bhíothas, not bhíothadh, as the translation of "one was". Ó Siadhail sticks with bhíothadh, which is probably dialect-specific. Would you please clarify for me what the difference between the two forms is and which would be better for a learner like me to use? Same goes for the Ó Siadhail's rabhadh--Collins Irish Dictionary suggests rabhthas, and An Foclóir Beag--rabhthar (I am not entirely sure if I'm looking at the right tables, though). I would prefer Standard Irish, or a Connacht Irish version.--Ag Foghlaim 19:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The official standard (Caighdeán Oifigiúil) is bhíothas and rabhthas in the past tense, so those are the forms you as a learner should use. Rabhthar is the autonomous form in the present subjunctive, not the past indicative. Angr (talk • contribs) 21:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bhuel, níl ionadh orm ar chor ar bith :) Ó Siadhail is often maddening in regards to the dialect-specific vocabulary and phrases he uses. No matter how much effort I put into trying to catch all those dialect perks and replace them with Standard Irish, I keep finding myself in a position of having learned something that I should have learned in a completely different way. Anyway, thanks again for your help and for clarification of present subjunctive vs. past indicative--I am yet to figure out An Foclóir Beag's abbreviations, so it was completely my screw-up.--Ag Foghlaim 21:47, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know, that's why I can never recommend Ó Siadhail in good conscience to someone wanting to learn Irish. The problem is, there's nothing else out there! Angr (talk • contribs) 21:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Forms of tá—follow-up

Hi, Angr! Sorry to bother you again; I am wondering if you could answer a few more questions of mine.

I've been working on Ó Siahdail's Lesson 7 (yup, my progress is not very impressive, I'm afraid) during the past week, and, of course, this is where he once again surprised me by unloading the whole bunch of verb tenses of bí on me. Anyway, I've been trying to make sure all forms were standard and not dialect-specific, and An Foclóir Beag was of great help to me here. Then I tried to match the pronunciation guidelines from your previous response with what Ó Siahdail says in Lesson 7 and with what Irish orthography says. I am kind of stuck in a few places:

Both An Foclóir Beag and my little Collins Irish Dictionary (Standard Irish through and through) give bhíothas as the Standard form of bí for "one was". Ó Siahdail gives bhíothadh, and you also recommended me this form last time, albeit with pronunciation different from Ó Siahdail's ([vʲiːhəv]). Same goes for the dependent forms (Ó Siahdail's ní rabhadh vs. An Foclóir Beag's ní rabhthar vs. Collins Gem's ní rabhthas). I didn't give it much thought last time, but now when I'm trying to piece everything together, it is rather confusing.
In Imperfect, how are analytical forms (bhíodh sé, bhíodh sí...) pronounced? From what I gather, it should be [vʲiːt], but I really want to make sure I got it right. Ó Siahdail says that dh is pronounced [t] before a slender s; Irish orthography--only before pronouns beginning with an s. Which one is standard?
Ó Siahdail uses a dot under [t] in the transcription on page 27, but I couldn't find this symbol in Appendix I. What is the meaning of that dot?
Again, in Imperfect, would bhíodh be pronounced [vʲiːx] when followed by anything but a slender s? According to Irish orthography, it should be.
Pronunciation of dh in Conditional--same questions as for Imperfect. I figured this much out: bheinn = [vʲiːnʲ]; bheifea = ['vʲefʲa:]; bheadh sé = [vʲat ʃe:]; bheadh sí = ['vʲat 'ʃi:]; bheimis = ['vʲimʲʃ]; bheadh sibh = ['vʲat 'ʃivʲ]; bheidís = ['vʲedʲi:ʃ]; bheifí = ['vʲefʲi:]. Is this correct?
Pronunciation of dh in Future (beidh mé, beidh sí...). Last time you told me beidh is pronounced [bʲej]. Now I can't figure out why. Why not [bai]? Not [bei]? Does it matter which letter/sound it is followed by? Aaaaa!

I am sorry for so many questions--hopefully I am not bugging you too much with this stuff--but I am kind of desperate to figure all this out on my own; not when all my sources contradict one another. I would certainly appreciate your answers when you get a moment. Thanks!--Ag Foghlaim 20:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An Foclóir Beag and Collins are quite right: past tense autonomous is bhíothas, not bhíothadh in the standard language. Sorry about confusing you before. Pronounce it [vʲiːhəs].
bhíodh sé doesn't really have a "standard" pronunciation. In Connacht in general, it's [vʲiːt ʃe:], but in Ulster it's [vʲiːu ʃə] and in Munster it's [vʲiːx ʃe:]. To the best of my knowledge, the Connacht pronunciation is [vʲiːt] only before sé, sí, siad (pronouns beginning with slender s), and otherwise [vʲiːx], so that bhíodh Seán is [vʲiːx ʃa:n].
The dot under the t is supposed to mean the place of articulation is alveolar or postalveolar rather than dental. I didn't bother indicating this because it's a completely phonetic assimilation to the following [ʃ] and therefore IMO not worth mentioning in a broad transcription.
Yes, imperfect bhíodh is [vʲiːx] except before sé, sí, siad. (And in Munster, it's [vʲiːx] even before sé, sí, siad, so if you want to adopt Munster pronunciation for these forms, it'll be one less thing to remember.)
I think bheimis is actually ['vʲemʲəʃ] (i.e. it's an exception to the rule that ei is [i] before nasals). Beidh is also an exception to the spelling rules; eidh doesn't represent [ai] here but is broken down into ei [e] + slender dh [j].

Hope this helps! User:Angr 20:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I'll probably print your answers out and frame them--yes, they are that useful to me! The only thing you missed was my sub-question about the dependent forms in #1 (Ó Siahdail's ní rabhadh vs. An Foclóir Beag's ní rabhthar vs. Collins Gem's ní rabhthas). There are three forms to chose from. By analogy, I would guess that ní rabhthas is the standard one, but I am curious as to where ní rabhthar came from. It was my impression that An Foclóir Beag used Standard Irish as well.

As for your suggestions, I much prefer to stick with Standard Irish, or with Connacht when it's impossible, as it was the case with bhíodh sé. Munster and Ulster are interesting, too, but I'd rather limit the variations at this point as much as possible.

Again, please accept my gratitude for your help!--Ag Foghlaim 20:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since you seem to be the type who's not intimidated by technical grammar terms, you might look into buying the Christian Brothers' New Irish Grammar, which is very dry but the absolute standard reference grammar. Using them now as a tie-breaker for the dependent form of the past tense autonomous, the answer is... (drumroll please)... rabhthar. I guess rabhthas is either an analogical form or a typo in Collins Gem. (A typo is quite possible, as they get rabhthar right in the present subjunctive at the bottom of the column.) User:Angr 20:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, let's just say I am not easily intimidated :) I must admit that when you recommended I read syllable coda and syllable onset it was a bit too, erm, challenging. Thanks for the tip, though. I'll try to find that book. It's too bad my local library is a complete disappointment when it comes to Irish—all they have is one copy of TYI!--Ag Foghlaim 18:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bheinn/bhínn/abhaile/beag/ea/eo exceptions

Hi, Angr! It's been a while since I bugged you, hasn't it? :) I have just two really minor questions this time. If you could answer them whenever you have a spare minute, I'd be very grateful.

How is abhaile pronounced? According to my pronunciation bible, it's supposed to be /'aulʲə/, but what I hear is more like /ə'walʲə/ (which kind of makes sense, when you think that abhaile is a form of baile). Still, which is right (standard)?
I say [ə'waljə], if that helps. -- Evertype·✆ 21:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In sentences Bheinn ansin (I would be there) and Bhínn ansin (I used to be there), is bheinn pronounced exactly the same as bhínn? That is my impression based on the pronunciation guidelines. If they are pronounced the same, how would I know if the speaker means "would be" or "used to be"? If they are not, what is the difference?
I say [vejŋ] and [vi:ɲ], if that helps. -- Evertype·✆ 21:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you!--Ag Foghlaim 20:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the tips, Evertype! Whether it helps or not depends on which dialect of Irish you are speaking. In order not to get confused to death, I stick with Caighdeán/Connacht (I may move on to incorporating other dialects in a few years). Which part of Ireland are you from?--Ag Foghlaim 21:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Evertype's answers. abhaile is indeed basically "a-bhaile", it belongs to the class of Irish adverbs that begin with unstressed [ə]. And bheinn is an exception to the rule that ei is usually pronounced i before nasals; as we talked about last time, these forms of "tá" like to play by their own rules. Angr 06:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Darn, I knew I should have asked you about all forms of tá just in case! Anyway, I see that Evertype indicated above that he pronounces bhínn as /vi:ɲ/. What is that /ɲ/ sound? Is it the same as /nʲ/, /ŋʲ/, or something completely different (sort of like /ɲ/ in French gagner, maybe)? I don't see this particular symbol anywhere else in the Irish orthography article. And speaking of Irish orthography, I see that you added a couple exceptions for the ea and eo combinations (which was very helpful to me, by the way). Two questions about that: are (an)seo and seomra not qualifying exceptions as well? Is the /o/ sound in beag really /o/? On the tapes I listen to (with one of them, however, being Munster-based), it kind of sounds like /o/, but it's not really the same /o/ as in other words. Am I just being too concious about such minor details, or am I just listening to the wrong tapes?

Finally, are there other (common) adverbs structured in the same way as abhaile?

As usual, there is no end to my gratitude for your invaluable help. If it weren't for you patiently answering my questions, I would have probably put my Irish studies to end soon after I started. With your help, it will be my first anniversary next week, and I am excited to report that I find myself understanding 40-60% of content of unabridged Irish texts (such as the Lá articles or articles in Irish Wikipedia), or 70-80% with a dictionary (although I'm not having that much success on the speaking front, nor is it easy for me to write in Irish myself yet). Thanks again!--Ag Foghlaim 15:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

/ɲ/ is basically like in French gagner. It's used in northerly dialects (Mayo (where Evertype lives) and Donegal) as the "tense" equivalent of /nʲ/. Seomra has a long vowel AFAIK, but you're right that (an)seo is another exception; I forgot it before. The vowel of beag is certainly phonemically /o/ in most accents (though in Donegal it sure sounded more like /e/ to me), but phonetically it's probably rather fronted because of following a palatalized consonant. Keep in mind that the color (backness vs. frontness) of short vowels in Irish is almost entirely determined by the quality of the surrounding consonants. If when pronouncing beag you're careful to make the b properly palatalized and the g good and back, just get the height of the vowel right (mid, not high or low), and the color will almost take care of itself. There's a whole slew of adverbs starting with an unstressed [ə]: besides abhaile, there's abhus, anseo, ansin, ansiúd, anall, anonn, aduaidh, aneas, anoir, aniar, anuas, aníos, inné, inniu, anocht, amárach, anuraidh, arís, arú, amach, amuigh, isteach, istigh, and probably several more I'm not thinking of right now. Are you active at ga: at all? Angr 15:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why I thought seomra is supposed to be pronounced with short /o/ is because it is (kind of) a recommendation of the Irish People lessons (namely this one, but they do mention it's only true "in parts of Ireland").

I'll have to study more about the color/height concepts—I've never seen sounds explained in those terms—and it looks like they may be quite useful in my studies.

Also, thanks for the extensive list of the /ə/-adverbs. While I knew most of them, I didn't know them all, knew a couple of them wrong, and never thought of putting abhaile in the same row.

As for the ga:, no, I'm not really active, although present. I'm planning to increase my participation there as my Irish progresses, but that probably won't be for another year or so. For now, I'm just using the articles as study materials, tracking a few discussions, and adding interwikis when I see that an article I am reading lacks them. Nothing too grandiose :)--Ag Foghlaim 16:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fortis & lenis sonorants

I also have a related question. I don't remember if it was you who told me that or if I read it elsewhere, but, if I remember correctly, the pronunciation of letter "l" depends on its lenition/eclipsis. While in writing this letter is never modified, its pronunciation actually differs if it stands in a position where another lenitable/eclipsable letter would be lenited/eclipsed. An example would be in aice leis an lampa, which is along the same lines as in aice leis an gcoláiste. First of all, is that true at all, or is it something different that I completely misunderstood? Second, if its true, does the strict version of IPA provide any means to show the difference in pronunciation of letter "l" in various positions?--Ag Foghlaim 14:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As for L, there are only some dialects where it's pronounced differently under lenition than otherwise. If you look at the table in Irish phonology#Fortis and lenis sonorants you'll see rows for Lˠ, Lʲ, lˠ and lʲ in Old Irish, and their modern correspondents in the three main dialects. Under lenition, the modern counterpart of Lˠ becomes the modern counterpart of lˠ, while the modern counterpart of Lʲ becomes the modern counterpart of lʲ. (The same thing holds for N, by the way.) However, being dental consonants, L and N don't undergo lenition after the definite article anyway, so you use the unlenited pronunciation in don lampa. And L and N aren't affected by eclipsis at all, so ár lampa is no different from ordinary lampa. —An gr 14:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On subordinate clauses

Panu, I found your tip regarding má, mura, sula, and nuair to be of incredible help. I am, however, still an early learner who is stuck on má/dhá (Ó Siadhail's lessons 8 through 10, as you might have guessed). If time permits, could you please put together a tip that would describe the system behind the following sentences from the Irish grammar point of view? The sentences are:

When I am [not] there, I am [not] pleased.
I don't say you couldn't say "Nuair a bhíonn mé ansin, bíonn mé sásta"; "Nuair nach mbíonn mé ansin, ní bhíonn mé sásta"; "Nuair nach mbíonn mé ansin, ní bhíonn mé sásta", and so on. However, I would tend to rephrase the whole thought so as not to need the "nuair" at all: "Is cúis áthais/míshástachta dom gach uair dá dtagaim ansin" ("every time of all the times I come there is a cause of happiness/unhappiness to me").

When/if I am [not] there, I will [not] be pleased.
This should be straight enough: Má bhíonn mé ansin, beidh mé sásta. Mura mbí mé ansin, beidh mé sásta. Má bhíonn mé ansin, ní bheidh mé sásta. Mura mbí mé ansin, beidh mé sásta.

The form "mbí" is the old subjunctive present, only used after "sula" and "mura". Some say you should substitute an indicative present nowadays (sula mbíonn), some say a future (sula mbeidh), I don't remember which one of these schools Ó Siadhail represents, but for me as a friend of Ulster Irish it is still natural to cling to the subjunctive.

If I were [not] there, I would [not] be pleased.
Dá mbeinn ansin, bheinn sásta.

Mura mbeinn ansin, bheinn sásta.

Mura mbeinn ansin, ní bheinn sásta.

Dá mbeinn ansin, ní bheinn sásta.

After "dá" and "mura", you can also use "mbínn", which is the past subjunctive, still quite frequently used by Ulster authors ("Dá mBíodh Ruball ar an Éan").

If I had [not] been there, I would [not] have been pleased.
Usually, you use the same for this. I.e. the Irish conditional mood refers both to present and past. However, there are tactics you can use in order to emphasize that you are actually speaking about past. For example, "dá mbeinn gan dul ansin" = "if I hadn't gone there" ("if I were without going there") and "mura mbeinn gan dul ansin" = "if I had gone there" ("unless I were without going there").

There is also the trick of "murach go/nach/gur/nár" or (typically in Ulster dialect) "ach go bé go/nach/gur/nár" (also written "achab é go/nach/gur/nár"). Basically, this structure juxtaposes what really happened (in indicative past) with what could have happened otherwise (in conditional mood). So, take a look at these:

Murach go raibh mé ansin, ní bheinn sásta.

Ach go bé go raibh mé ansin, ní bheinn sásta.

Now, the thing that happened is, that you were there, and that is written in normal past tense form. The thing that would have happened otherwise, i.e., you wouldn't have been happy, is in conditional mood.

Infinitives

Which category of infinitive would a construct such as ceist a chur fall? I understand that chur here is a lenited form of the verbal noun, but how does "a" come into play? Thanks!--Ag Foghlaim 20:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A is used to separate a verbal noun from its preceding direct object. Historically it's derived from the preposition do "to", so syntactically ceist a chur is identical to German eine Frage zu stellen. The difference is that in German, all the complements of the verb precede the infinitive, while in Irish, only the direct object does. So if you want to say something like "I'd prefer to ask him a question at 3:00 under the oak tree", in Irish it comes out as "I'd prefer a question to ask at 3:00 under the oak tree to him", while in German it comes out as "I'd prefer to him at 3:00 under the oak tree a question to ask." —An gr 07:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Angr, this helps. What is the precise grammatical term for the "a"+"verbal noun" construct, if there is one? Would it make sense to add this information to this article? The reason I am asking is because all my study materials seem to use this construct without any explanation. While intuitively I understood how it works, actually seeing how it falls into the grammatical system was helpful.--Ag Foghlaim 15:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if there is a precise grammatical term for. It's cursorily mentioned at Irish syntax#Syntax of the verbal noun. —An gr 15:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Darn, I was hoping for more than that. My problem is that while I can recognize this form in the text and translate it correctly (Gaeilge-Béarla), I am never sure if I myself use it right (Béarla-Gaeilge). That may, of course, be because I need more practice. Thanks anyway, every little bit helps!--Ag Foghlaim 15:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry! My expertise is phonology, not syntax, and I'm not a native speaker. My instinct is to use the Noun + a + VN construction whenever the noun is the direct object of a VN, unless the VN is being used to form a progressive (with ag) or a perfective (with tar éis or i ndiaidh). So Is fearr liom ceist a chur, but Tá mé ag cur ceist and Tá mé i ndiaidh cur ceist. —An gr 15:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no, no need to apologize. I understand very well that you are not a native speaker. Native speakers, however, are for some reason generally not at all as eager to answer my periodic barrages of questions as you are, and your answers are always helpful. I'll keep what you said in mind and, of course, keep practicing. At the very least I now know for sure that my intuitive perception was not completely wrong.--Ag Foghlaim 19:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]