User:ThatPeskyCommoner/Exmoor sandbox

The Exmoor Pony-and a survey of the evolution of horses in Britain. Pt. I. SPEED, J. G.; ETHERINGTON, M. G.; British Veterinary Journal, 1952, 108, 329-338, http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19540100426.html Pt. I. Earlier suggestions [see A. B. A., 19, No. 1036] that the Exmoor Pony type was the first modern horse in Britain, and may even have evolved there, are further discussed and developed. A larger, pack-horse type is also known to have been extant in Britain before the end of the last Ice Age, but is not represented in such early strata as the small pony. Both types were in the country long before man.

   *   Publication type: Journal article
   *   Record Number: 19540100426
   *   Author Affiliation: Roy. (Dick) Vet. Coll., Edinburgh.
   *   ISSN: 0007-1935
   *   Language of publication: English
   *   Geographical Location: UK;
   *   Organism Descriptors: horses; man;
   *   Descriptors: evolution; surveys;
   *   Identifiers: Britain; United Kingdom;
   *   CABICODEs: ZZ380 - Taxonomy and Evolution;
   *   Broad Terms: Equus; Equidae; Perissodactyla; mammals; vertebrates; Chordata; animals; ungulates; eukaryotes; Homo; Hominidae; Primates; British Isles; Western Europe; Europe; Developed Countries; Commonwealth of Nations; European Union Countries; OECD Countries;
   

The Exmoor Pony-and a survey of the evolution of horses in Britain. Pt. II. SPEED, J. G.; ETHERINGTON, M. G.; British Veterinary Journal, 1953, 109, 315-320, http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19540101918.html Pt. II. By 250 B. C. the Celtic Pony was fairly common in Britain, but as a domestic animal only. Speculation about its origin leads to the suggestion that it was developed from a cross between the indigenous pony and an early Arab prototype (Iran-Nissi), for the importation of which by the Celts there is some evidence. The modern representative of these Celtic Ponies is the Shetland Pony. From about the 1st century A. D. the Romans introduced many horses of so-called "Oriental" breeding, followed later by the larger, heavier animals of the Saxons. To the introduction by the Vikings about the 7th century of a strongly-built northern-type horse may be due the origin of our dun-coloured Highland garrons and the old type Orkney or Shetland work pony (not to be confused with the smaller "Shetland Pony"). In spite of the centuries of importation of both heavy and light types of horse that followed, and the subsequent inevitable crossbreeding, it is significant that native ponies, such as the Exmoor, are still holding their own. It is therefore of great importance that the prototypes from which specialised and improved breeds have been bred in the past should be preserved. M. N. F.

   *   Publication type: Journal article
   *   Record Number: 19540101918
   *   Author Affiliation: Roy. (Dick) Vet. Coll., Edinburgh.
   *   ISSN: 0007-1935
   *   Language of publication: English
   *   Geographical Location: UK;
   *   Organism Descriptors: horses;
   *   Descriptors: animal breeding; breeds; crossbreeding; domestic animals; evolution; horse breeds; importation; Shetland Pony; surveys;
   *   Identifiers: Britain; United Kingdom;
   *   CABICODEs: LL200 - Animal Breeding and Genetics, (Discontinued March 2000); ZZ380 - Taxonomy and Evolution;
   *   Broad Terms: Equus; Equidae; Perissodactyla; mammals; vertebrates; Chordata; animals; ungulates; eukaryotes; British Isles; Western Europe; Europe; Developed Countries; Commonwealth of Nations; European Union Countries; OECD Countries;
   

An aspect of the evolution of British horses. SPEED, J. G.; ETHERINGTON, M. G.; British Veterinary Journal, 1952, 108, 147-153, http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19530100593.html Speculation about the origin of the modern horse, supported by evidence based mainly on dentition, leads to the conclusion that certain breeds of pony in Britain to-day are direct descendants of the Pleistocene Northern horse which was specialised for grazing. The theory that the blood of these ponies is present in all modern horses, including Arabs, and that by the use of such ponies regeneration of stocks can be achieved, is now being tested at Isernhagen in Germany. A regeneration herd for the production of agricultural horses is being formed with the help of Exmoor ponies. The aim is a horse which can live on rough grazing with no supplementary feeding and without any kind of housing. The Arab, so widely used on many other types of horse and pony, was not primarily a grazing but a browsing animal, and the introduction of Arab (and Hackney) stallions into Britain in place of native stallions is blamed for the eventual disappearance of such types as the Manx, Cushendal, Tiree, Long Mynd, Galloway, and Goonhilly. Many famous breeds of horse have pony ancestry, but the production of specialised breeds by the use of imported foreign stock leads to degeneration unless the need for a reservoir of native stock is recognised. M. N. F.

   *   Publication type: Journal article
   *   Record Number: 19530100593
   *   Author Affiliation: Roy. (Dick) Sch. Vet. Stud. , Edinburgh.
   *   ISSN: 0007-1935
   *   Language of publication: English
   *   Geographical Location: Germany; UK;
   *   Organism Descriptors: horses;
   *   Descriptors: animal feeding; animal housing; blood; breeds; browse; degeneration; dentition; evolution; feeding; grazing; horse breeds; regeneration; stallions; supplementary feeding;
   *   Identifiers: Britain; pasturing; United Kingdom;
   *   CABICODEs: LL500 - Animal Nutrition (General); ZZ380 - Taxonomy and Evolution; RR130 - Feed Additives;
   *   Broad Terms: Equus; Equidae; Perissodactyla; mammals; vertebrates; Chordata; animals; ungulates; eukaryotes; Western Europe; Europe; Developed Countries; European Union Countries; OECD Countries; British Isles; Commonwealth of Nations;
   

The Exmoor pony and the place of our horses in rural economy. SPEED, J. G.; ETHERINGTON, M. G.; British Veterinary Journal, 1951, 107, 144-146, http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19530100601.html Not only economic factors are responsible for the present decline of the horse in Britain. Many centuries of selective breeding have led to deterioration in the constitutional health of British horse breeds. Unexpected defects of conformation, particularly in dentition and jaws, have been revealed in some modern breeds by anatomical investigation. Given healthier stock, the agricultural and transport industries still have room for the horse. The Exmoor pony, which shows fewer defects due to " human interference " than any other British breed, is hardy and tractable and could well form a basis for building up British stock, as modern investigation suggests it did in the distant past. [See also A. B. A., 19, No. 1036.] M. N. F.

   *   Publication type: Journal article
   *   Record Number: 19530100601
   *   Author Affiliation: Roy. (Dick) Vet. Coll. , Edinburgh.
   *   ISSN: 0007-1935
   *   Language of publication: English
   *   Geographical Location: UK;
   *   Organism Descriptors: horses;
   *   Descriptors: animal anatomy; animal breeding; body measurements; breeds; conformation; defects; dentition; health; horse breeds; jaws; rural areas; selection; selective breeding;
   *   Identifiers: body components; body conformation; Britain; United Kingdom;
   *   CABICODEs: ZZ310 - Anatomy, Morphology and Structure (General), (Discontinued March 2000); LL200 - Animal Breeding and Genetics, (Discontinued March 2000); LL600 - Animal Physiology and Biochemistry (Excluding Nutrition);
   *   Broad Terms: Equus; Equidae; Perissodactyla; mammals; vertebrates; Chordata; animals; ungulates; eukaryotes; British Isles; Western Europe; Europe; Developed Countries; Commonwealth of Nations; European Union Countries; OECD Countries;
   

The origin of British horses. SPEED, J. G.; ETHERINGTON, M. G.; St Georg, Die Herkunft der britischen Pferde., 1953?, 54, 1, 4-7, http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19530101093.html It is suggested that the original native horse of Britain in prehistoric times was a representative of the " Universal Pony, " which is said to have migrated from North America, and that the Exmoor Pony is a descendant of the type which existed in Britain ca. 100, 000 B. C. The Fell Pony is thought to be derived from a northern pony of a later date (ca. 60, 000 B. C. ] which migrated to Britain along a more northerly route. Foreign types introduced into Britain in historic times are said to have had a detrimental influence on the native horse, and a plea is put forward for the preservation of the original pony breeds still in existence. The Exmoor Pony is described. The article is illustrated by several photographs. G. E. A. N.

   *   Publication type: Journal article
   *   Record Number: 19530101093
   *   Author Affiliation: Vet. Fac., Univ. Edinburgh.
   *   Language of publication: not specified
   *   Geographical Location: America; North America; UK;
   *   Organism Descriptors: horses;
   *   Descriptors: history; photographs; preservation; storage;
   *   Identifiers: Britain; Plea; Pleidae; United Kingdom;
   *   CABICODEs: BB500 - History and Biography;
   *   Broad Terms: Equus; Equidae; Perissodactyla; mammals; vertebrates; Chordata; animals; ungulates; eukaryotes; America; British Isles; Western Europe; Europe; Developed Countries; Commonwealth of Nations; European Union Countries; OECD Countries;
   

A note on the history of British horses in the light of recent investigations. SPEED, J. G.; ETHERINGTON, M. G.; Veterinary Record, 1950, 62, 624-625, http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19510101043.html IT is claimed that the Exmoor pony is similar to the native horse which existed in Britain over 100, 000 years ago, and present lines of research indicate that this type formed the country's " basic horse stock. " The skeletal conformation considered typical of the indigenous horse is found in some of the present Exmoor stock. As this survival of type suggests that it is the horse best suited to this country, an effort is being made to select and preserve within the Exmoor breed the most desirable animals, so that there may be " a reservoir of sound foundation stock from which in emergency robust and economic draught animals may be produced. " M. N. F.

   *   Publication type: Journal article
   *   Record Number: 19510101043
   *   Author Affiliation: Roy. (Dick) Vet. Coll., Edinburgh.
   *   ISSN: 0042-4900
   *   Language of publication: not specified
   *   Geographical Location: UK;
   *   Organism Descriptors: horses;
   *   Descriptors: body measurements; conformation; draught animals; history; skeleton; survival; working animals;
   *   Identifiers: body conformation; Britain; draft animals; traction animals; United Kingdom;
   *   CABICODEs: LL600 - Animal Physiology and Biochemistry (Excluding Nutrition); LL200 - Animal Breeding and Genetics, (Discontinued March 2000); LL060 - Draught Animals; BB500 - History and Biography;
   *   Broad Terms: Equus; Equidae; Perissodactyla; mammals; vertebrates; Chordata; animals; ungulates; eukaryotes; British Isles; Western Europe; Europe; Developed Countries; Commonwealth of Nations; European Union Countries; OECD Countries;
   

Copyright CAB International 2010

Found another possible one to track down: Speed, J. G. (1956): An indigenous British horse. The British Veterinary Journal 112, 483–490.

Things to Find / Questions for Experts!

Looking at the "Mitochondrial DNA and the origins of the domestic horse" study (again!)

Fig 2, nodes descending to kinda 7 o'clock on the clockface, showing some Exies in an un-lettered node (JEX60), with B2 and then B1 going downline from them.

Adding the info from the Mutation Rate estimation stuff, and looking at Table 1 (Frequencies and ages of the mtDNA clusters).

B2 estimates at 13,000 to 31,000 years in age.

The Exies-only-node is one mutation back in time from B2 (I think that's what it's saying? Am I right?), so that would theoretically place the Exie-only-node-mtDNA-cluster-thingie at 26,000 to 62,000 years back from now.

I appreciate that this study is 8 years old, so all that Kim said earlier about that applies - is there a same-type diagram which is much more up-to-date?

Can't find a date for this, but Exeter Univesity Projects EquiScience site Jansen and Oelke are saying that Cluster E (off at 3 o'clock) was entirely Icies, Shetlands, & Fjords; and saying at C1 17 of 19 were Exie, HIghland, Fjord and Icelands, but saying nothing about that node which seems to contain only Exies, and from which descended B2 and B1 with a number of different breeds.

What's all this mean? (I don't think I'm totally asking the exact same question I asked before). My interest is in that 'nothing-except-Exies' node, which seems to have more Exie-examples in it that the 'random Exies' turning up from other nodes. How can we persuade someone to find / do an as-of-now study on that, using this data and possibly more Exie-data?

The [Origin and History of Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in Domestic Horses 2010 Study] re-classifies B2 and B1 as I and I1 respectively, (going off at about 5 o'clock on their clockface), and the Exie-only node is sitting there between I and centre-ville (!). I is dated back to Bronze Age. ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 12:44, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

... and the 2002 study's C1's (which included other Exies) become the 2010 study's B1's, playing with the Plasticene in the Pleistocene in 'Europe' (why, oh why, can't they separate British Islands from the rest of Europe, just to make life easier for us! Which was playing where?) ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 13:15, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

...so, from what I can interpret, both the Exie-only node (pre-I), and the B1 node, also containing Exies, are dating back into the Pleistocene era. ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 13:30, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

It would take more time than I can spare to sort this out at the moment. But my gut says the Exmoors are probably going to have common relatives with some of the other Northern European breeds. I've just seen the "wild origins" theory debunked too thoroughly for too many other breeds. I'd give Kim the specific page # to really narrow it down, as she probably doesn't have the time to wade through it all. Another way to get there is to put what you THINK it says over to the article talk page and see who jumps on it. If you really want the acid test, put it in the article and see how long it lasts! Montanabw^(talk) 20:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Really, this is far more simple. The Exmoor is just another horse breed and it is somewhat more related to the other so-called 'primitive' breeds like Icelandic and fjord, but ultimately, they are nothing special. Have a look at this http://www.pottoka.info/files/documentos/1225197904_1.pdf article, now 10 years old and kind of the start of rethinking the stuff about horses. If you take the one stallion, many local mares concept in consideration, as long as there were wild horses in the UK, mares could have been recruited. And that can explain easily the current distribution in haplotypes. It is very well possible to spend a long time trying to squeeze a bit more out of this story, but I think that the chances on finding something more spectacular at this time is pretty much nill. Please consider, the PLOS one article states that the haplotype network is unresolved when they take all available sequences, and I think their data is flawed because of that. There is a reason it is published in PLOS one and not a regular journal.-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:34, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Haha! No, I don't believe I shall be putting it into the article just to see how long it lasts! I think it says that the oldest node Exie-related (which is the only one that's Exie-only), and the 'other Exie-containing node', are both pretty darned 'old', as it were. Like I said, ponies playing with the Plasticene! And I think that stuff may have been overlooked simply because people weren't looking for that, they were looking for something else. You must surely have seen this observation test before - that's what I mean.

And it's not the 'wild origins'; thing, really Which is blerdy stupid, isn't it, lol?! Every darned equid on Earth has 'wild origins' - apart for the ones produced entirely for the creationist people, which were clearly created as domesticated animals with no prior history whatsoever ..... no, it's the 'not-far-removed-from / hardly-changed-since ancient' thing I'm after. 'Modern prehistoric' (sounds as dodgy as manufactured antique!). And that Exie-only node, which leads to, but doesn't share, the other Euro breeds ... I think it says Exies didn't go extinct in Britain. Can't think why no other breeds would be sharing that node, otherwise. ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 21:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Hey Kim! We crossed paths in the middle there! I shall read that other thing tomorrow (very possibly very early) as I'm very tired now. I'm sure there's something still to be dug up in there somewhere, possibly with much better / more data. You any good with minimg implements, girl? :o) ThatPeskyCommoner (talk)

The article here (mentioned above) is one that I already read - I found it blinkin' hard to see what went where in it - differentiating between the colours was horrific, particularly between Shetland and Exmoor in Fig 2.

Possible Wording?

Would it be safe, without risking going off into original research, to say something along the lines of this (after dealing with the Speed and Etherington stuff):

'Recent studies [with some detail and citation] have disproved any direct connection between the Alaskan fossils and the Exmoor pony, but have demonstrated that the modern Exmoor pony descends from one of the most ancient maternal lineages. Studies in mtDNA have placed some Exmoor ponies in the same lineage and timeline as Icelandics, Shetlands and Fjords, but have also traced maternal lines of a significant group of the Exmoors tested directly to an older [split-off? Any help with wording?], only one mutation away from coalescence [defining what that means or linking as appropriate], dating the matrilineal origins of that particular [can't think of a suitable word, lol! help!] ..... maybe 'group of animals'?], exclusively Exmoor ponies, to somewhere between 13k and 64k years ago.'

Is that safe? The info is there in the diagrams and explanations OK if anyone other than ourselves can ever be bothered to read the source material, lol! And, as that one little node of Exies seems to be 'very pure' (i.e. not polluted by other mainland-European breeds), can one say something like 'it is likely that the ancient ancestors of today's modern Exmoor ponies did not go extinct in Britain, and the modern breed has resulted from a mixture of these original native British animals and others brought in by humans over several thousand years.' .... ??? What do you think? ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 06:53, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

No, but you CAN "teach the controversy." Take a look at how Pitke handled miscellaneous, later proved bogus, theories at Finnhorse#Early_history. Also look at how Dana handled the breed enthusiast research at Sorraia. You can say something like, "famous scientist Joe Schmo proposed a theory in 18XX that ABC happened. Then later famous scientist Jule Schmoo refuted this in 19XX by saying DEF so was what was really going on. However, recent DNA studies in 20XX have yet to verify either theory and so until further research advocated by Super Wikipedian KvdL occurs, all that can be definitively stated is that the Exmoor resembles other primitive breeds, but appears to have very old matrilines." (And Kim may still not bless that last bit). Montanabw^(talk) 17:12, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm. I get what you're saying, and I will take a look at those pages for a clearer insight. I do want Kim's input on what the phylogenetic network thing is actually saying with regard to the ancient Exie-node! Can we coerce coax her into doing some actual Exie-related work, using that info, and publishing something on it? [grins] ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 18:22, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Start fundraising?? Actually, I think her RL involves studying bugs... Seriously, though, I know that the test for Lethal white syndrome was largely developed due to fundraising support from the Paint association, ditto Leopard with the Appaloosas. I've been a part of the push to get a test for cerebellar abiotrophy and lavender foal syndrome, so I CAN tell you that squeaky wheel, greased with money, gets results. Montanabw^(talk) 19:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Lets see, if we want to prove that the Exmoor is a old breed, we have to prove two things. One is that it has been arround for a long time, and that requires old bones. Aka, how many horse bones are available in that region of the world to extract ancient DNA from. If the bones are not there, you ain't going to do anything. And that is something you can do by digging through archeology databases. The second part is more tricky, because once we have established a ancient lineage, those horses could look like anything. So, we have to establish the unique characteristics of the Exmoor, determine if we can view those on archeological materiel or not, and then get morphometric data for the bones and teeth, and determine what genes code for the remaining exmoor characteristics and trace those back through the ages. Just determining the genotype-phenotype map of Exmoor characteristics would take a few years and a quarter to half a million at least (salaries, sequencing, trait maping). Ergo, this is not really realistic especially because the current information on the haplotypes suggest a central European origin. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 19:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

So are you saying that al the prehistoric ponies in Britain went extinct, or migrated out, and then came back in later (including the Exie-only-node matriline), or are you saying that they all (whether late entrants or not) migrated originally from central Europe? Any way we can put different dates on the two different matrilines there? It would be good to know whether we can say either way whether they went extinct in Britain, or whether all we can sya is 'it's imossible to tell as yet whether they went extinct in Britain'. I'd like to be able to say something, even if it's just that not enough research has been done yet to say anything about matrilinear origins with confidence! ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 19:41, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like that to me. Maybe also ask Richard about UK extinction issues, he'd be up on some of that. I know in the USA it's an issue because the horse almost certainly became extinct here about 10,000 years ago, (possibly in part hunted out by humans, we tend to do things like that), only returning as an introduced species with the Conquistadors post-1492. In the context of the Mustang (horse), people were desperately searching for a real, never-went-extinct horse ancestor to "prove" these were at least partly "real" wild horses, but to no avail. The fossil record is quite clear. So instead now, what we have is a HUGE debate over whether the Mustang constitutes a reintroduced "native" species (that we can preserve and protect) or an introduced "foreign" species (aka a pest that can be eliminated from the range so that cows (unquestionably an introduced species themselves) can have more grass to eat!). In Australia, they have even more trouble with the Brumby, as it's clearly an introduced species there, yet has a historic and cultural value, even while it causes some environmental problems. Montanabw^(talk) 20:33, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I know Richard is of the 'pro-extinction' leaning; I'm not really committed either way but I have a feeling that they probably didn't - reinforced somewhat by that 'apparently-pure-Exie' ancient mtDNA node (not the one shared with the other NW Europe / Nordic breeds, but the other one). Kim (bless her golden heart :o) ) has said she will do some work on sorting and wording the research that we currently have available for the Exie page.

I think, long term, that I will probably be tempted to contact some of the authors of both the 2002 and the 2010 studies, to get them to play 'track down the Exmoors' from the data that they already have available, and publish something on it - however brief - that we can then cite.

[mass cut and replace here, lol!] Britain was exporting tin from the south-west corner to Europe etc. by 1600 BC, so my hunch is that whatever equids were around in sufficient quantities to be involved in hauling minerals in the south-west corner of our islands had probably been there throughout at that time, regardless of the fact that mainland-Europe horses undoubtedly had a lot of influence later on. I'm really not up on what kinds of sea-going vessels were around in those far-off days (I shall read up on those), but I'd guess that hauling minerals would have been a darned sight easier than hauling livestock, with whatever they had available. I'd be inclined to guess thay maybe it was the horse-taming skills and knowledge that came over to ancient Britain, and were applied to our native equids, rather than pre-tamed horses. And there were some unidentified native equines (the X3 types) lurking in Ireland in the late Pleistocene / early Holocene era, according to the 2010 study, and as far as I know there was a land bridge across at least part of the Irish sea during the last ice age- maybe it was those guys which moved across? And 'Old Irish' has words for both horse and chariot. ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 04:25, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Big jump between the Holocene and 1600BC. Domestication in steppe Asia goes back to c. 4000 BC, so probably little doubt as to the presence of domesticated horses and language for them by 1600BC. It's the gap in between that's the problem. I can see a "tame" stallion getting put on a boat and hauled over to have a field day with local mares. Be interesting to compare y-DNA and mtDNA on this. Montanabw^(talk) 18:55, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Yup, the Y-DNA is definitely the 'guy that got around', lol! But what I'm extrapolating from the mtDNA (see the pics I linked to elsewhere) is that, although some of the Exies are in the same clusters as Icies, Fjords, Highlands & co., there's also a separate batch of 'only-Exies-here' - taken from modern-day Exies - which appears to be only one mutation removed from the central node where everything coalesces. Which says, to me, that there are Exies trotting around today which are only-one-mutation from truly ancient coalescence point. They are one node out from centre-ville on the phylogenetic network in the 2002 study, and the 2010 study hasn't changed that. Now, adding that to the X3 equids dating back to late Pleistocene / early Holocene found in Ireland (see 2010 study), I think it's quite possible that the Irish animals could migrate happily from southern Ireland to mainland Britain during the last ice age - and probably did. The two islands were connected at that time because of dropped sea levels. The fact that we apparently don't yet have evidence of equids in south western Britain which have been traced to that time doesn't mean, obviously, that there weren't any - just that we haven't yet got a track on them. I don't think they went extinct - I just think, as you suggested (and Kim, too) that incoming stallion(s) mated with native mares.

Looking at the networks, we have, today, also other animals which are proto-Exie plus one mutation, and proto-Exie+2 mutations. And we have, today, a node where modern-Exie=proto-Exie. So, if we have, today, an Exie matriline which tracks straight back, without any intervening mutations, to 26,000 - 64,000 (min to max) years ago, then that plonks them straight back into the right kind of age to be 'truly ancient'. Doesn't it? ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 07:42, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I shall label up another image of that, to make it clear.ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 08:56, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Graphical Explanation of the mtDNA stuff on Exies that I'm Seeing!

(and what a long section name, lol!)

HERE's the marked-up image part of the 2002-study phylogenetic network. Note: the 2010 made no other changes to this section of the network, other than (importantly!) to re-name these B-clusters/nodes as I-clusters/nodes. And the 2002 C-clusters were renamed as B-clusters. I could seriously shake those 2010 people warmly by the throat for having done something so completely unnecessary and frustratingly confusing! ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 11:45, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a Kim question. I get lost with this stuff, I'm good tracing back pedigrees 200 years, but these charts and diagrams get too dense for me. I think you could possibly say that the Exie is the only known member of a cluster that split off XYZ kazillion years back, but I'm not going to bank on it. Some days WP:OR is really a bitch. Montanabw^(talk) 21:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

No problems here. I have to make a few graphs otherwise it is sheer impossible to explain what is going on. The main thing to think about is individuals versus populations. It is really pretty much irrelevant what individuals do, you have to loo at all the data as a group. That will require the info of Table 5 of the supplementary data, which will show you that there are more exy haplotypes than you think, all over the tree. Just give me time to catch up with a few other things. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:56, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I will give you time :o) (Isn't it funny how you can give someone else something that you don't have any spare of yourself, lol!) I know there are other Exies scattered about the rest of the tree, of varying haplotypes, but it's that particular little batch of them that I'm interested in, in terms of how old the 'batch' is, if you know what I mean. As far as that branch of the tree goes, am I right in extrapolating the age of that first node back, from the age of the downline node, as being a mutation dating back 26K to 64K years? Did I get that bit right? And is it right that all the animals downline from there would have to include a proto-Exie in their background? I think I am understanding the way the tree works OK, but it would be nice to have some confirmation of that :o) ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 23:11, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

No, that is not how it works. It only says that the mutation occured so many years ago, and that the haplotype has been around since then. It could have been around in for example Arabians till 1900 when one single individual was crossed with a local breed called exmoors. If the haplotype has some advantage for the local population, in the 100 years that followed, it easily could have grown to be the dominate haplotype. So, chery picking one individual does NOT say anything. You have to consider both all Exmoors simultaneously in context of all other horses while ALSO considering when AND where the haplotypes have been found. AS we have only ONE Irish ancient DNA sample, we won't be able to say much about the ancestry of the Exmoor until more UK-based samples have been found. Any speculation about a single individual is just that, pure speculation and not encyclopedia worthy. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:44, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Aha! OK, I think I have that now. That was good teaching - thanks! Would it be acceptable to say something along the lines of ..... "Although recent mtDNA research has uncovered many haplotypes in the Exmoor pony, there is one matriline which appears to spring from ancient roots, and to date this particular haplotype has not been isolated in any other breed or type in either ancient or modern mtDNA samples. It would, however, be premature to draw any inferences, at this point, as to whether or not this haplotype originated in ancient times in the British Isles, or as to how long this haplotype has been present in the Exmoor pony or its ancestors."

Would that (a) accurately reflect what we know as of today, and (b) not be going too far? (And I think, from the thing about the size of the circle reflecting the number of animals found with that haplotype, that it was in more than one Exie? But I could be wrong there, of course - I frequently am).ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 09:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)