User:Shiwi

Use of Objectionable Terms

"Today, the Navajo, Theif(sic) in their language, still consider the decendents of the Ancestral Puebloans to be enemies throught the continued use of the term: Anasazi."

Moved anon contribution from the article for discussion. Not true of the Navajo people I know -- unless you are referring to the recent conflict with the Hopi and that was the fault of the US federal governement. Expanded information and sources please. WBardwin 28 June 2005 18:30 (UTC)

IN RESPONSE

As you say in a reminder to yourself: "...Absence of evidence for your hypothesis does not mean that the opposite of the hypothesis is true, nor does it mean that the hypothesis must be false. Likewise, absence of evidence against your hypothesis does not mean that the hypothesis is true, or that the opposite of your hypothesis is false."

It is purposely so that there is an absence of evidence for the reasons why Navajos choose to call Ancestral Puebloans as Anasazi which has a literal translation of "The Enemies of our Ancestors." The reason to use Anasazi is to perpetuate the true feelings of Navajo jealousy and hate toward Puebloans. The Navajo mentality is to take what they can not have through falsehoods and ambiguity, and simultaneously blame the US Federal Government for their wrong doings. To truly understand what is said here is to understand why the Navajos were force by the US Army on the "Long Walk". Please read: Pedro Pino: Governor of Zuni Pueblo, 1830-1878 written by E. Richard Hart. ISBN: 0874215633

The thievery of the Navajo people reported today is a long standing stigma witnessed and expressed by the 19 Pueblos of New Mexico and other bordering tribes in the southwest including Hopi. Moreover, the rest of the 510 federally recognized Native American tribes would testify that the Navajo people are thieves. Shiwi 8 July 2005 05:05 (UTC)

Pejorative terms for their neighbors is a long standing tradition among peoples of the Americas (and probably the world). And, if the meaning of the term is "thief," it would probably make sense that modern Navajo prefer the name Dine. But it would violate Wiki's NPOV to call all Navajo (Dine) people "thieves", and Wiki guidelines encourage us to avoid presenting our personal opinion and emotions as fact. Relationships between the Navajo (and their cousins the Apache) and the Pueblo people have a checkered history. Pre-historically and historically, they often traded with the pueblo's and wintered in their territory. Relationships were not always peaceful, and in some cases real enmity existed between the groups. I'm sure some thievery occurred as well. Some historians believe their trade relationship contributed to the Pueblo attempt cast off the Spanish yoke. But, according to Spanish records, a real and productive trade relationship existed.

Since Anasazi is a historic term used in references, and our readers would be referencing information by that term, it is appropriate to use the term in the encyclopedia's article. I am not certain when or how the use of the Navajo term Anasazi for the ancient pueblo people emerged. I suspect it was simply because the Navajo lived in the areas where the first professional pot hunters began digging. It would be an interesting project to find out, but the sources would probably be obscure. I also suspect that it would be difficult to document any modern Navajo conspiracy to continue using the term. However, if your point is that the term "Anasazi" carries cultural baggage, I would agree with you. That is why it is not formally used by modern archaeologists. If you have some references, a couple of sentences on the origin of the term, its historic use, and modern connotations to the descendants of the ancient people would be a good addition to the article.

It is very interesting to hear your perspective. Does Wiki have an article on modern relationships between Native people of the Southwest? If not, have you considered writing one? That would be great! Comments welcome. WBardwin 8 July 2005 18:16 (UTC)

It is ironic to say that pejorative terms, personal opinions and emotions are discouraged from use as fact, but in the same breadth a reinforcement of the term Anasazi is encouraged for historic purposes. The name Anasazi is of the same effect as "nigger". The word "nigger" is an extremely controversial term and is discouraged in its use. Therefore, it is not at all appropriate to use the term "Anasazi" in the encyclopedia’s article. Modern archeologist prefer to use names derived from the Puebloans, such as Hisatsinom, or others such as Chacoans, etc.

And, for the same reason to not use "Anasazi" or "nigger", Diné is the prefered name for Navajo at their request. With this in mind therefore, it is my request to discourage you from perpetuating the use of "Anasazi" as the preferred historical term.

I ask you to make this request as part of the information you provide in your Wikipedia entry for "Anasazi".

I am relatively new to this forum, but I am working up to the level of discussing relationships between Native People of the Southwest and other special topics; hence my comment to your entry. You should consider my perspective words to be authentic from the Southwest, for I am Shiwi.

Please reference my comments regarding the Zuni language portrayed in the "Zuni Enigma" by Yaw Davis. Her theory is another example of falsehoods perpetuated by mass media through her book. My truth revealing comments were banned from Amazon.com at her request. This shows you to what degree and means are put forth to prohibit perspectives from the indigenous people being written about. So much for her open mindedness in the research.

Nevertheless, you can download RealPlayer [1] and listen online [2] to the rebuttal by the Zuni Councilmen, religious leaders and official representatives on her book and her theory on the Zuni Language. Along with Yaw Davis, they assess her book to answer the following questions: Did a group of thirteenth century Japanese pilgrims come to the American Southwest and merge with the people of Zuni? Did these Asians influence the language and religion of the Zuni people? According to Dr. Nancy Yaw Davis, the answer to both questions is yes. She claims to have uncovered evidence that suggests the Zuni were visited by Japanese travelers some seven hundred years ago. Is it true? Guests include Nancy Yaw Davis, author of "The Zuni Enigma" and Malcolm Bowekety, member of the Zuni Nation. Recordings provided by Native America Calling and American Indian Radio on Satellite (Airos.org) [3] Shiwi 8 July 2005 1:15(GMT-7:00)

I do appreciate your perspective. But, when pejorative terms are used in a historic time/place, they become part of history. You will find "nigger" used in this encyclopedia, both in a historic sense and in modern arguments over correct usage and human rights. It was a historic term, although presently offensive, and so is referenced in the encyclopedia. Other prejorative terms used by one group to describe another are also referenced, but not emphasized. "Anasazi" is not the name of the article, nor is it the preferred term, and is included only so people can find the article from their current frame of reference. Hopefully they will learn to use a more appropriate term, although a more concise name than "Ancient Pueblo Peoples" would be easier to reference and perhaps remember. Unfortunately, there is no native or archaelogical concensus on a new name, to my knowledge. The article currently notes that modern Pueblo people object to the historic and modern usage of the name. If you wanted to make that point more strongly, I would have no objection.

As to your heritage and interest in presenting a native perspective, welcome. We have a very small group of people writing about native peoples here, and most of us seem to be pretty "white." You might talk to User:Kevin Myers. He has done some very good historical work on native issues, mostly dealing with the east coast and with the impact of the Western contact (see Population history of American indigenous peoples). Western and Southwestern native peoples have been sadly neglected on Wiki (there are a plethora of techies here!). Good articles, historic and modern, on your people and other relevant areas would be wonderful. WBardwin 8 July 2005 21:32 (UTC)

You are absolutely right about pejorative terms used in a historic time/place, and they become part of history. However, Anasazi is not so historic, but rather an emergence of modern times. The term began its use in historical time reference within the past 10 years, if not less, and therefore does not constitute as historical in the sense it is used. Because there is a consensus among modern day Pueblo people to dismiss Anasazi as the name to use, the current Hopi name, Hisatsinom, is preferred. I will make this point more strongly on your entry. It is okay to leave Anasazi at the very top for reference as you say, but I recommend to eliminate the term, Anasazi and replace it with Hisatsinom in the body of the text. Shiwi 8 July 2005 16:50(GMT-7:00)

Lineage comment

I'm currently reading Nancy Yaw Davis' book, which is quite fascinating. While I expect to know more about the connection between the Zuni and Japanese languages in a few days' time, I've been studying Japanese since 1989, and currently earn my bread as a translator. I've also studied some Korean and Chinese, as well as a couple Polynesian languages (mostly Maori and Hawaiian), in addition to getting a minor in German literature in university -- basically, I'm a language geek.  :) But when I was reading over this interesting article on Zuni, I tripped up a bit on the description of Japanese as an isolate. The page on the Japanese language itself does present a number of competing theories on the origins of the language, but no view of Japanese as an isolate holds much currency that I'm aware of. Just in my own studies in working to learn Korean, I find the grammatical similarities too close to be mere chance. Words (that are not borrowed from Chinese) are almost completely different, but the grammar, even to the point of some particles being identical, matches quite cleanly in many areas, enough for me to personally lean towards the first two bullet points under "History and Classification".

The theory presented by Nancy Yaw Davis regarding the Zuni language portrayed in the "Zuni Enigma" is far fetched and borders science fiction and fantasy. Her book is another example of falsehoods made into truths and perpetuated by mass media through her book. My truth revealing comments were banned from Amazon.com at her request. This shows you to what degree and means are put forth to prohibit perspectives from the indigenous people being written about. So much for her open mindedness in the research.

Nevertheless, you can download RealPlayer and listen online [4] to the live rebuttal by Zuni Councilmen, religious leaders and official representatives on the book and theory on the Zuni Language by Nancy Yaw Davis. The nationally syndicated Native America Calling'[5] radio talk show on NPR interviews Yaw Davis asks the following questions: Did a group of thirteenth century Japanese pilgrims come to the American Southwest and merge with the people of Zuni? Did these Asians influence the language and religion of the Zuni people? According to Dr. Nancy Yaw Davis, the answer to both questions is yes. She claims to have uncovered evidence that suggests the Zuni were visited by Japanese travelers some seven hundred years ago. Is it true? Guests include Nancy Yaw Davis, author of "The Zuni Enigma" and Malcolm Bowekety, member of the Zuni Nation. Recordings provided by Native America Calling and American Indian Radio on Satellite (Airos.org) [6] Shiwi 8 July 2005 1:15(GMT-7:00)

I think the above comments concerning fastasy and science fiction are very closed-minded. I spoke to Nancy Yaw Davis concerning photos of Randy Nahohai's 'Deer in House' and 'Rosette' pottery patterns a year prior to publication and I perceived an individual working for the advancement of her science whom in no way meant any disservice to the Zuni people, or any Native American people. I read the book after publication with a sceptical attitude, but found that she has followed the course of scientific methodology and opened up an area of discussion that needs further scrutiny by anthropologists. How can one be so naive as to eliminate the possibilities of trans-Atlantic or trans-Pacific contact in Native American prehistory, or history prior to Columbus? Archaeological evidence shows that the cultures of the Americas are much younger than those cultures radiating from the so-called cradle of civilization. The beings that peopled the Americas had to come from somewhere and it would be completely naive and closed-minded not to suppose that these migrations were continuous, and had occurred for many thousands and thousands of years.

Of course people are bound to be upset when the status quo is disrupted, but shaking the foundations of a science has happened continually throughout history and has always led to a better understanding of our world. While just a theory, Davis' book is true to its science, a worthy donation to anthropology, and entirely appropriate to the Zuni language page, which is dedicated to presenting information in the spirit of possible further research and investigation. It's contents are currently neither true nor false, but they are one or the other which as a requisite renders "fantasy and science fiction" as a mere opinion, and opinion has no place on the main page.

I listened to the audio files and found them inconclusive except for the feelings of the Zuni, with whom I can whole-heartedly sympathize. But they have perservered to maintain their identity over the centuries. Houses, pick-up trucks, refridgeration, television, etc., have done nothing to change that, but assimilation happens. It's fact of history. Can you imagine a 16th century Francescan priest extending his arms towards the heavens and praying on behalf of the Zuni for support (Sp. apoyar) in times of drought, and perhaps the Spanish verb apoyar being adopted by the Zuni as Apoya(nne) to mean "sky" (Newman), stone cover (or "sky" per Bunzel), or "all-covering Father" (Cushing). True or false, the inquiry is necessary. It's called science. Even if Davis' theory is eventually disproved, it has served a scientific purpose in the elimination of possibilites, which is really what science is all about. I would say that it is no wonder that "truth-revealing" comments were removed, for in light of all the evidence it could have been no more than an opinion, which is not the content sought for the pages at Wikipedia.Amerindianarts 9 July 2005 01:36 (UTC)

PS, the entry you made was preserved as a footnote to Davis' book as well as a link in the external links. You really didn't need to put it on this page.Amerindianarts 9 July 2005 02:43 (UTC)

Again, applying your own words, the theory of Davis is neither true or false, but is a mere theory or opinion, which is not the content sought for the main pages at Wikipedia. Absence of evidence for your hypothesis does not mean that the opposite of the hypothesis is true, nor does it mean that the hypothesis must be false. Likewise, absence of evidence against your hypothesis does not mean that the hypothesis is true, or that the opposite of your hypothesis is false. Scientific discovery is not factual unless a hypothesis or theory is proven again and again in due course of time to be true. This test of time has not passed, but still fails in Yaw Davis's book and therefore is still an opinion. It is not the process of modern day scientific discovery to profess a theory as truth until it is disproved. The research is so young and fragile, it has no business on the main pages of Wikipedia and should remain in the discussion section of Wikipedia as you suggest for my opinions to be.

In addition, just because opinions are published in a book does not constitute as fact. Just because opinions are not published in a book does not constitute as false. Therefore, you should realize that the Zuni language is of oral tradition, which forces researchers of today to rely on past interpretations of ethnologists such as Frank Hamilton Cushing, Ruth Bunzel and Matilda Cox Stevenson. It is a known fact by seasoned southwestern anthropologist that mistruths were told by Zunis to keep the sanctity of religious and sacred thing to be pure.

I am not so naïve to the idea of migration as you suggest, but I recommend you to elimination the theory for the Japanese-Zuni relationship, but instead assess other tribes such as the Athabascans, Navajos, and the Apaches, who have a nomadic ancestry. In fact, Navajos look a lot more like Japanese and have Sand Paintings as the Buddist Monks do in there culture. If science is to be served right, I suggest you start there yourself researching other tribes before making a pure correlation. Reveal your own truth and do not assume that I am ignorant and closed minded as you are. My comments were removed because I suggested Yaw Davis to research other tribes as mentioned above.

Yes, I do know Randy Nahohai through marriage. The 'Deer in House' and 'Rosette' pottery patterns are contemporary interpretations of archaic designs. He does not suggest Japanese influence as Yaw Davis suggests.

The biological and scientific methodology needs more rigor than 60% correlation of the languages. Any language has 60% correlation in sound and syntax. In addition, it should be noted that DNA of any human on this earth only has a difference of 0.001%, thereby emphasizing that all humans are related no matter how you look at it.

Your skepticism is so easily dissolved based on a few references in Japanese and “baby-talk” in Zuni provided by an individual that had no experience that Frank Hamilton Cushing or Ruth Bunzel had when the language was the closest to purity. Your naivitivity and validation is a disservice to linguists and the Zuni people to make such correlations. Please consider yourself to opening your mind to other tribes for analysis.

Besides I am an accomplished master's degreed scientist and engineer from the Pueblo of Zuni and fluent in the Zuni Language. I fully understand the importance of scientific methodology and rigor. I work along side Japanese people on a day to day basis and have discussed in Japanese and Zuni and exchange ideas on the languages. We have not discovered any correlation at all between the two languages as Yaw Davis suggests. This is the purest empirical study a scientist can have, and Yaw Davis fails to conduct one. Shiwi 8 July 2005 21:00(GMT-7:00)

For what it's worth, "Anasází" is Navajo for "Those who have gone" and refers exclusively to the ancient Puebloan peoples known in English as "Anasazi". Other Puebloan peoples are referred to by individual names, for example "Kiis'áanii" for Hopi. Having said that, I'm wondering if you're perhaps interested in starting a Wikipedia in the Suñi language?? --Node 00:22, 6 September 2005 (UTC)