User:QuackGuru/Undefined blue line

• {{Db-u1}}

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/vaping-linked-lung-illness-looks-like-exposure-to-mustard-gas-doctors-say/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/health/vaping-illnesses.html

[1][2]

https://www.kbia.org/post/fed-vaping-classrooms-olathe-school-district-sues-country-s-leading-e-cigarette-maker#stream/0

Myclobutanil hydrogen cyanide Cannabis vaping products https://www.inverse.com/article/58581-dank-vapes

https://futurism.com/neoscope/vaping-cannabis-black-market-coma

The blue line is not defined in the diagram in parenthesis. I would add (blue) in parenthesis for the corresponding brain region. The blue line is undefined in the modified version. Can you add (blue) in parenthesis to the corresponding brain region?

Hey there; sorry for the delay in my response. I was out of town for over a week. After reviewing what this pathway is intended to illustrate, it appears that it's actually a part of the nigrostriatal pathway that projects to the caudate; the red pathway projects to the putamen (the dorsal striatum is collectively the caudate–putamen). Unfortunately, it's showing the projection nucleus as the VTA instead of the substantia nigra, which is wrong. I could probably modify the pathway, but I'd need to extend the lines and recolor it in red. I should probably double check with the original source though. Can you link the paper to me that this diagram is from? Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 20:25, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

See https://intarchmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1755-7682-3-24 The diagram needs to be clarified. QuackGuru (talk) 20:29, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

The diagram needs to be clarified – I agree. I'll read through the paper and make the necessary revisions within the next week. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 21:10, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Seppi333, the blue lines remains undefined. Can you define the blue line? QuackGuru (talk) 11:36, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't really have the time to work on any images right now, but I would honestly just abanadon this one. It doesn't look like it accurate reflects the other targets of the VTA, which is what the blue line projects out of. If you go to Dopamine pathways#Pathways or neurotransmitter systems and scroll down, you'll see other targets for the VTA. Also, the image is missing the tuberoinfundibular pathway which, while technically only a neuroendocrine pathway which results in the release of prolactin into the blood, does affect reward cognition; this is particularly evident in men with hyperprolactinaemia, as their desire for sex (aka libido) is markedly affected. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 07:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

I can't find a replacement image. QuackGuru (talk) 13:14, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Was a bee, can you help fix the diagram? There are different dopaminergic pathways. What pathway is the the blue line and do any of the pathways need to be redrawn or renamed? QuackGuru (talk) 09:01, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Original version File:Overview of reward structures in the human brain.jpg	New version File:Recolored Overview of reward structures in the human brain2.png

Hi @QuackGuru:. Firstly, I don't have enough knowledge to answer the question about the dopamine circuit raised here. But I also think that something strange in the original diagram. I suppose... that the blue line (colored in blue at Seppi's rework at the right) actually should be located at cingulate cortex like this diagram (currently the line locates at corpus callosum). --Was a bee (talk) 05:39, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Slashme, can you help fix the blue line and any other lines that are mistakes in the diagram? QuackGuru (talk) 19:51, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi QuackGuru, I can do the drawing. Is the idea to use the drawing that Was a bee linked as a model? Do we want the Substantia Nigra and VTA to be shown as blobs like in that diagram? --Slashme (talk) 06:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, if there are any errors in the following files, please let me know so that I can fix them. --Slashme (talk) 07:02, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Slashme, I want this file to be fixed. The blue line is wrong and possibly the red line is also wrong. The blue line should be redrawn to show the dopaminergic pathway. This file is currently used in articles and it will be for a new article. See here. QuackGuru (talk) 14:18, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, which picture should I use as a reference when drawing the correct pathways? For example, is Dopaminergic pathways.svg correct, and could you use it instead? I'm not a neurobiologist, just a chemical engineer who draws diagrams for fun ;-) I do have a friend who is a neurobiologist, so I'll also ask him to take a look. --Slashme (talk) 08:18, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

My main concern is fixing the pathways. I think it will improve the diagram if Substantia Nigra and VTA were shown as blobs. VTA should be spelled out as Ventral tegmental area. The Cerebellum can be mentioned.

Please read comment by Seppi333 at the top of this page: "it appears that it's actually a part of the nigrostriatal pathway that projects to the caudate; the red pathway projects to the putamen (the dorsal striatum is collectively the caudate–putamen). Unfortunately, it's showing the projection nucleus as the VTA instead of the substantia nigra, which is wrong. I could probably modify the pathway, but I'd need to extend the lines and recolor it in red."

The blue line is wrong and needs to be redone. I want to include both mesocortical and dopaminergic pathways and the other content in the image. I can't find an image that shows both the mesocortical and dopaminergic pathways.

I'm not sure. What is the difference between the mesocortical pathway and the dopaminergic pathway? They both seem to be on the same pathway except that the dopaminergic pathway is longer than the mesocortical pathway. This image does not state which one is the dopaminergic pathway. QuackGuru (talk) 14:09, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Slashme: can you update the diagram? Did the neurobiologist review the file and point out what should be fixed? QuackGuru (talk) 02:28, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, sorry for the delay: I was at Wikimania last week, this week I was catching up at work, and now I'm traveling again on private business until Tuesday. I'll get the diagram done by Wednesday, when I'm back home.--Slashme (talk) 08:46, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Slashme: I also think all the lines can be redrawn to look more like this. QuackGuru (talk) 12:34, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, I took another look at the various bits of information tonight, and my friend gave me a lot more information in the meanwhile. His comments are as follow:

QuackGuru is right about representing the VTA and SNc as blobs in the brain stem.  These are well defined brain regions.

I think the figure would be too busy showing all the projections form the nuclei to the various brain regions, also the projections overlap. To clarify the projections simple google "Ventral tegmentum XXX" if you insert "putamen" for XXX then you will find that the VTA does project to the putamen/striatum as does the SNc... Both the VTA and SNc project all the way back to the occipital lobe: we get a little dose of dopamine every time we see something we like...

The other issue is that the brain you have doesn't really show the truth of the matter as the projections typically run from the midbrain up through the thalamus into the limbic system and cerebral cortex (there is a direct connection from the SNc to the striatum and globus pallidus). It might be better to use a figure orientated like this:  pic 1 pic 2 pic 3 These are from www.biodigitialhuman.com .You can get a lot of free content there. You can systematically fade regions or make them transparent. Perhaps you can use this as a base to build the graphic? Otherwise, one can do something like this: pic 4 pic 5 These are from https://msu.edu/~brains/brains/human/search.html . You can put the sagittal and coronal sections side by side to show the path of the fibers to their destinations. I guess these would be easier to trace into SVG format than the 3D views from the biodigital human.

Regardless of what you do, representing the actual state of knowledge will yield a tangled mess of lines so some simplification will be needed. Basically, any part of the brain involved in decision making will get a dopaminergic fiber.

If you want to have one figure similar to the original, I would have one line originating from the VTA and SNc and have them branch rather than having separate lines. Each will have projections to the cortex, limbic system and striatum. I suggest a color-blind friendly pallete: https://github.com/JuliaPlots/Plots.jl/issues/1144 . If you need specific help with the pathways let me know and I can help you figure them out.

You were asking for help, but I think I have just complicated things... In essence, the figure is already an over simplification and will always be inaccurate or incomprehensible. Even the pathways like these are way over-simplified: File:Dopaminergic_pathways.svg (this one is also wrong as the VTA is shown to be anterior to the SNc... it is inferior and medial to the SN... they lay side by side with the red nucleus between them).

So it seems to have become a bit more complicated. I'll be on a four hour train journey tomorrow evening and again coming back on Monday, so I'll read through this material again, and next week after Tuesday I'll actually have time to start drawing! I like the idea of showing a perspective view of a semitransparent brain, and I have a good Blender 3D model of a brain that I can use for this. I don't like his suggestion of having a coronal and sagittal section side by side. That would definitely be confusing. Whether or not we stick to the sagittal view that we have at the moment, I agree with him that we have to simplify, and the question is definitely what to leave out, so I'll also give that some thought on the train. --Slashme (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Slashme: Instead of regular colors look at the color used here. I prefer vivid colors rather than basic colors. You can decide on the colors. I would first use this image. You could create two different images and fix other images. You can fix what you think needs to be fixed. I used the current image in two articles and a draft for a new article. See Effects_of_electronic_cigarettes_on_human_brain_development#Stimulation_of_the_brain. QuackGuru (talk) 21:08, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Slashme: I hope you have some free time to fix the diagram. I understand you are very busy. QuackGuru (talk) 22:44, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru it's been a busy few weeks: the weekend before last was State of the Map, and last weekend I was in Lisbon, but this weekend I'm at home. Could we maybe arrange a voice call? If you think that might be useful, you can mail me using the "email this user" function. I've spent a lot of the time so far just learning brain anatomy, just to try and understand what the various commenters have said, even going so far as to make this picture, but I think it might help if we have a chat. --Slashme (talk) 09:57, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

This is beyond my expert. I really don't have any more suggestions for fixing it. User:Seppi333 was going to fix it but he is very busy in real life. QuackGuru (talk) 11:35, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Would you prefer to use this image and start from scratch? Seppi333 may be able to help you on the placement of lines and what should be included. Begoon has some suggestions. QuackGuru (talk) 00:54, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru Getting the picture looking good and making it editable by other editors is the least of my problems. My problem is getting enough of a grip on the neuroanatomy to clearly understand the instructions of what needs to be fixed. A short cut might be if someone here could print out one of the diagrams, draw what needs to be drawn in presidential sharpie, take a photo of the result and post it. Then I can do a neat diagram :-D --Slashme (talk) 06:59, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Seppi333, can you post a drawing over one of the diagrams using a sharpie? QuackGuru (talk) 12:09, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Seppi333, there is a new cropped image. Can you draw the correct pathways over the new cropped image? QuackGuru (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Hmm. Surprisingly, that actually is something that I can do. I need about a week or two before I start working on that since I'm currently working on a rather time-intensive AI training project and ironing out some issues with the links in these tables: Wikipedia:WikiProject Molecular Biology/Molecular and Cell Biology/Human protein-coding genes1‎ (in case you're curious, I've mentioned a lot of stuff about both here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Molecular Biology/Molecular and Cell Biology). Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 23:25, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Are you going to draw all lines and create a usable image or are you going to just draw with a sharpie and Slashme can do the rest of the work? I would like the lines to be somewhat 3D or something like this for a new diagram. QuackGuru (talk) 23:35, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

I was going to put a transparent overlay of the original image onto the newer one and manually redraw the lines, but shift the origin of the nigrostriatal pathway to the substantia nigra. Slashme is a better artist than me, so if he wants to draw them via that method, that'd work fine. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 23:59, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Alright. Hopefully within three weeks things will start to move forward. QuackGuru (talk) 00:08, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Do you have time to work on this? QuackGuru (talk) 23:30, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Soon, yes. Been spending more time working on my AI than on Wikipedia lately. Will finish training it for the first use case in the near future. I'll work on this image before I start on the second use case. If I still have the file on my computer for retracing the lines on the other image, it won't take me too long (not sure if I still have it since IDK what filename I used for it or if I deleted it). Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 01:12, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

The newer image will work best. It does not have the problems like the other image.. QuackGuru (talk) 01:20, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Do you have time to work on this diagram? QuackGuru (talk) 23:15, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Prior version File:Recolored Overview of reward structures in the human brain2.png	New version File:Possible effects of nicotine on the developing human brain (cropped).jpg

Slashme, can you start with one of the pathways that you know is correct and make the line somewhat 3D or something like this for a new diagram? Just start with one line that you know is correct. We have to start somewhere. QuackGuru (talk) 22:52, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Seppi333 is going to draw an overlay for you. QuackGuru (talk) 00:08, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

• 
  better looking lines

• 
  Mesocortical pathway
• 
  Dopaminergic pathways
• 
  Mesolimbic pathway
• 
  Nigrostriatal pathway
• 
  Tuberoinfundibular pathway