User:Nederlandse Leeuw/Pretenders

A collection of past, present and future discussions at WP:AFD, WP:CFD, WP:TFD, or other talk pages, on articles/lists, categories and templates of lines of succession to former thrones of abolished monarchies, or lines excluded from existing monarchies, claimants, pretenders, and other related dynastic stuff.

TompaDompa list

So basically, the same reasons as the previous 32 lines of succession to defunct thrones that have been deleted recently (1 Austro-Hungarian 2 Afghan 3 Two Sicilies 4 Dungarpur 5 Rampur 6 Rajpipla 7 Iraqi 8 Hyderabad 9 Hanoverian 10 Jodhpur 11 Waldeck and Pyrmont 12 Idar 13 Kutch 14 Jammu and Kashmir 15 Tunisian 16 Vadodara (Baroda) 17 Travancore 18 Anhalt 19 Hessian 20 Bharatpur 21 German 22 Württemberg 23 Georgian 24 Bavarian 25 Baden 26 Bulgarian 27 Portuguese 28 Iranian 29 Egyptian 30 Brazilian 31 Albanian 32 Romanian). TompaDompa (talk) 13:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Later additions: 33 Saxon 34 Nepalese 35 Montenegrin 36 Italian 37 Greek 38 Bhopal 39 Russian 40 Mecklenburg.

NLeeuw article list

Past article discussions

In addition to TompaDompa's 32 (40) precedents (a few items overlap):

Date	TD no. #	AfD or other discussion	Result	Rationale	Current status
2005-05-15	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Self-proclaimed Emperors of Moravia and its "government"	Delete		Deleted
2005-08-16	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Emperors of Mexico	Keep	"Useful", "has linked articles already".	2019: Pretenders to the throne of Mexico split off.
2006-11-27	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of Succession to the Russian Throne- Part 1	Delete		Deleted
2007-06-02	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the Israeli throne	Delete	WP:OR WP:UNSOURCED WP:RS WP:NPOV.	Deleted
2008	–	Legitimist line of succession to the English and Scottish thrones in 1714	Keep		Jacobite line of succession to the English and Scottish thrones in 1714 This article lists the 66 potential claimants. Why?
2009-01-20	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/People Skipped From the British Throne	Delete	Duplicate	Deleted
2009-09-30	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pretenders to the German throne	Redirect	to House of Hohenzollern	Still lists 3 branch pretenders branches to present: House of Hohenzollern#Order of succession House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen after 1849 House of Hohenzollern#Succession since 1947
2010	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alternate successions of the English crown	Keep		Alternative successions to the English and British Crown
2011-04-21	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heir to the Ottoman dynasty	Delete	POVfork of Line of succession to the Ottoman throne	Ottoman dynasty#List of heirs since 1922 lists pretenders to present
2011-11-16	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of current Indian pretenders	Delete	WP:OR WP:BLP WP:BLPSPS WP:NPOV.	2013: Recreated as redirect.
2012-11-22	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Tuscan throne	Delete		Deleted
2013-12-26	–	House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line of succession	Delete		Deleted
2014-03-01	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the French throne (Bonapartist)	Keep		Succession to the former French throne (Bonapartist) lists pretenders to present
2014-03-23	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Ethiopian throne	Delete		Deleted
2015-10-28	–	List of non-sovereign monarchs who lost their thrones	Keep	"legitimate topic"	List of non-sovereign monarchs who lost their thrones. May be legitimate, but WP:UNSOURCED.
2015-10-28 2020-08-02	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of heirs to the Yugoslav throne Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Yugoslav throne	Redirect	to Line of succession to the former Yugoslav throne	House of Karađorđević#Current claims to the throne lists pretenders to present (updated to April 2022)
2017-01-27	–	Lifespan timeline of heirs and pretenders to the Romanian throne	Merge	Merge to King of the Romanians. WP:NOPAGE.	Still lists pretenders to present in the timeline.
2017-07-11	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Chinese throne	Keep/Rename	Met WP:GNG, but renaming appropriate.	Redirect to House of Aisin-Gioro#Heads of the House.
2020-04-21	–	Talk:Jacobite succession/GA1	Lost GA status		Jacobite succession still lists pretenders to present
2020-07-23	1 Austro-H.	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Austro-Hungarian throne	Delete	WP:OR WP:UNSOURCED WP:V WP:RS WP:BLP.	Deleted
2020-07-31	7 Iraqi	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Iraqi throne	Delete	Follow-up to Austro-Hungarian throne + WP:DEL-REASON 6, WP:NOTGENEALOGY.	Deleted
2020-08-31	33 Saxon 36 Italian 37 Greek 39 Russian	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Saxon thrones Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Italian throne Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Greek throne Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Russian throne	Delete	32 precedents. WP:DEL-REASON 6 WP:BLP etc.	Deleted
2020-08-31	35 Monten.	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Montenegrin throne	Delete	32 precedents. WP:DEL-REASON 6 WP:BLP etc.	Recreated as redirect to Petrović-Njegoš dynasty#Heads of the House since 1918, which still lists pretenders to present.
2020-09-19	40 Mecklen.	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Mecklenburg thrones	Delete	32 precedents. WP:DEL-REASON 6 WP:BLP etc.	Deleted
2020-11-03	–	Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 84#Of archdukes and princes	rough consensus that titles in pretense should not be generally used in article titles, infoboxes, etc. unless its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources demonstrates that a specific person is commonly named as such.
2021-04-06	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thurn and Taxis line of succession	Delete		Deleted
2021-07-03	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Head of the former Chinese imperial clan	Delete		Deleted
2021-01-19	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of living legitimate male Capetians	Delete	WP:NOTGENEALOGY WP:GNG WP:OR	Deleted
2023-08	–	Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 11#Purge consorts of pretenders? List of queens consort of the Two Sicilies and List of Greek royal consorts	Purge	Consensus was consorts of pretenders should be purged from lists of consorts of monarchs	Purged from Two Sicilies and Greece. Remaining elsewhere?
2024-06-12	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pretenders to the throne of Parma	Soft delete	Follow-up to c. 60 precedents, royalist listcruft.	Deleted
2024-06-12	–	Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pretenders to the throne of Mexico	Soft delete	Follow-up to c. 60 precedents, including TD's 40 precedents of 2020.	Deleted
	–	List of heads of former ruling families	Never nominated		Includes pretenders and non-pretenders
	–	Legitimists#List of Legitimist claimants to the French throne	Never nominated	(Purge pretenders after abolition monarchy 1871?)	Lists pretenders to present
	–	Miguelist#Miguelist claimants to the throne	Never nominated	(Purge pretenders after abolition monarchy 1910?)	Lists pretenders to present

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tarent claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem 4 December 2009
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brienne claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem 19 February 2019
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 83#Labeling modern descendants of nobility with theoretical titles: NPOV, BLP, NOR and other policy problems March–June 2020.
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)/Archive 24#Pretenders and defunct titles March–July 2020.

Current article situation

House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies#Heads of the House since 1861 still lists pretenders to present after the deletion of 3 Two Sicilies.
Competitors for the Crown of Scotland. This one is limited to a specific historical period, the Great Cause, and should be kept.
Carlism#Carlist claimants to the throne. This might be significant enough of a movement in Spain to be acceptable, as Spain is still a monarchy, and Carlist pretenders tend to be somewhat prominent. We should probably keep this list.
List of movements that dispute the legitimacy of a reigning monarch. Never nominated. Not sure if it should be kept or merged/redirected or deleted. Currently its contents are quite arbitrary, and perhaps they will always be.
Main article Pretender needs a serious cleanup.
Talk:List of heads of former ruling families/Archive 2#Requested move: --> Heads of former ruling families 19 June 2020. Moved from List of current pretenders to Heads of former ruling families
- Talk:List of heads of former ruling families#Requested move 13 January 2024 21 January 2024. Moved from Heads of former ruling families to List of heads of former ruling families. The question remains: What is the relevance of "head of family X" to "former ruling family X", except to press a claim towards a current or former throne that family X used to rule from?
  - If they do not press such a claim, then why should we care who the current head of that formerly reigning family is? Why not just have a List of former ruling families? Hint: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of royal houses (deleted 26 December 2013).
  - If they do press a claim, how is this any different from all the other Lines of succession to the former X throne that we have deleted? (Redirect Claimants to defunct monarchies suggests that this is the scope).

NLeeuw category list

NLeeuw template list

Past template discussions

Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 September 6#Template:Order of Succession_(Pretender) no consensus, therefore keep. (renamed several times until deleted in 2020 as Template:Former monarchic orders of succession, see below)
Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 May 22#Template:Infobox foremost royal claimant delete as unused.
Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 November 7#Template:Pretenders to the Manchu throne Delete as duplicate of Template:Pretenders to the Chinese throne (see below).
Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2016 October 28#Template:BritishThroneHeirs soft delete as unused and duplicate of List of heirs to the British throne.
Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 March 21#Template:Heirs to the Qajar Throne delete as unused.
Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 March 28#Template:Infobox pretender no consensus to merge with Template:Infobox royalty, but there may be consensus to delete the pretender infobox
Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 31#Template:Former monarchic orders of succession delete as part of emerging consensus to delete Line of succession to the former X throne articles.
Template talk:Head of Aisin Gioro#Requested move 23 February 2024 Template:Pretenders to the Chinese throne was moved to Template:Head of Aisin Gioro per WP:NPOV.

Current template situation

Template:House of Bonaparte. Either:
- A: the text French Monarchy-Bonaparte Dynasty which has been there since its creation on 8 November 2005 needs to be removed; or
- B: all non-monarchs, that is, everyone except Napoleon I, II, and III, need to be purged. No children which have also been there since its creation on 8 November 2005, no spouses, no pretenders, claimants, whatsoever, after 1870.

Otherwise, this template will always be a Bonapartist vehicle of sorts, and we can't have that per WP:NPOV.

Template:Pretenders to the French throne. Purge after 1870. See above.
Template:House of Orléans. Purge after 1870. See above.
Template:French royal family (Orléanist). Purge after 1870. See above.
Template:Princes of Orléans. Purge after 1870. See above.
Template:Dukes of Anjou. Purge after 1870. See above.
Template:Pretenders to the German and Prussian thrones since 1918
Basically everything in Category:Pretender templates?!

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 June 12#Template:Pretenders to the Mexican throne pending...

Proposed guideline

Proposed shortcut: WP:PRETENDER.

When creating articles, lists or categories about people who are or were pretenders or claimants to a current or former dynastic title/throne/crown (be it royal, imperial, princely or otherwise noble in the context of hereditary monarchy), caution must be taken, and certain criteria must be followed.

Policies and guidelines

WP:BLP must be respected. Unless a living person is recorded in WP:RS as formally publicly claiming a particular title, they should not be framed as if they are a claimant or pretender. Such statements must be removed immediately, especially if the person in question has renounced such pretensions (as Otto von Habsburg did in 1961).
WP:NPOV must be adhered to. The 2020-11-03 RfC found a rough consensus that titles in pretense should not be generally used in article titles, infoboxes, etc. unless its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources demonstrates that a specific person is commonly named as such.
WP:OR and WP:SYNTH are strictly prohibited. It's not enough to say that Foo was a descendant of former monarch Bar, therefore Foo was a pretender who woulda coulda shoulda acceded to the throne if XYZ. Wikipedia is WP:NOTGENEALOGY, nor a WP:CRYSTALBALL for your future predictions, nor a forum to post your alternative history stories, nor a WP:SOAPBOX to promote your political opinions. Unless this theoretical possibility can be demonstrated with WP:RS to be relevant in the present, or to have been relevant in the past, it should not be mentioned.
Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED, that is, just being a descendant of someone who once was a monarch does not mean every pretender gets to have a stand-alone Wikipedia page. In fact, they might not deserve a mention on Wikipedia at all in certain cases.

Practical applications

Allowed in lists:
- It is allowed to create lists (be it stand-alone lists, or list sections in other articles) of historical pretenders or claimants to a throne in a time where that was a relevant issue, such as Competitors for the Crown of Scotland during the Great Cause of the 1290s.
- It is also allowed to create lists of pretenders to current thrones who have formally publicly claimed that throne, and WP:RS show that this taken somewhat seriously in the current monarchy where another dynasty is currently reigning (e.g. Carlism).
Not allowed in lists:
- It is not allowed to create lists of pretenders to former thrones of monarchies that were abolished 50 years ago or more (Bonapartist pretenders to the French throne after 1870, e.g. Succession to the former French throne (Bonapartist) after 1870, Bonapartism#List of Bonapartist claimants to the French throne since 1814 after 1870).
- It is also not allowed to create lists of possible pretenders to a current throne if none of those people has actually formally publicly claimed that throne, be they living or dead (e.g. Jacobite succession pretenders after 1701).
- Consorts (spouses, partners) of a pretender or claimant to a current or former throne should be excluded from lists of consorts of monarchs of country X.
Templates: It is not allowed to frame templates of formerly reigning families/houses in terms of "monarchy" or "dynasty" whilst extending its members all the way up to the present (e.g. Template:House of Bonaparte headed by French monarchy and Bonaparte dynasty, but extending far beyond 1870 up to the present pretender Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoléon, thereby implying that France is still a monarchy today, under the Bonaparte dynasty, and that this pretender is the current monarch).
Categorisation: Any person who cannot be labelled a pretender or claimant to a current or former throne (or a consort of one) in an article or list for any of the reasons outlined above, may not be categorised in Category:Pretenders or any of its subcategories.