User:LinaMishima/Current tasks/Exploring consensus for opening paragraph

This page is an attempt to document the previous consensus discussions for the opening paragraph for the muhammad article. This page is not for public editing but rather is a private reference document used because the ammount of information is too large to examine in a single sitting.

Archive 1

Religious neutrality

When last I checked in with this article, before the anonymous edits of October 10, there was no use of PBUH. I have returned it to that form, since PBUH represents a religious point of view, and the encyclopedia has none. I have read the comments above, but there is no way to use the epithet without being reverent — not respectful, but reverent. Please do not reinsert the phrase; the long explanation at the beginning is enough, but to use PBUH in earnest is wholly inappropriate. I have also carefully noted that Muhammad was the founder of Islam (which is the most important neutral fact about him), but that Muslims revere him not as the founder of their religion, but as their prophet. Ford 01:08, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)

The 100 makes a rather interesting point...

No, I never went to a "Muslim" school. I learned most of my skills by arguing on the internet. That's why I am so good at it, as you can see. What about Rippin, Berg, Motzki, Gilliot, Schoeler, and Rahman? I know for sure some (or most?) of them don't deny that traditions were written earlier like Abbott claimed (agreeing with Abbott). You are throwing names of scholars who don't even deny that. Nice try. Won't work with me though :)) Try again OneGuy 20:38, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

According to the preface of my Arabic edition of Ibn Ishaq, he was not the first person to write a sira, merely the first whose sira is preserved. It says that before him were several sira writers, including Urwah ibn al-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam (a descendant of Asma), who died in 92 AH and whom Ibn Ishaq, al-Waqidi, and at-Tabari all used as a source, and Abban ibn Uthman ibn Affan (d. 105 AH) and Wahb ibn Munabbih al-Yamani (d. 110 AH).

Islam before Muhammad

The article says "Pious Muslims consider that his work merely clarified and finalized the true religion, building on the work of other prophets of monotheism in the Near East, and believe Islam to have existed before Muhammad. "

I'd never heard of this before. Could one of our Muslim editors provide me with some more information about this?--Josiah 03:26, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

Like Christianity before it, Islam claims to be a continuation and, in this case, culmination, of the same sequence of guides (prophets and messengers) that the One and Only Creator has sent to mankind to keep them on the, shall we say, straight and narrow that the Jews believe in. Muslims believe that The Creator (who they call Allah, but who is understood as the same as the God of Abraham and Jesus) has sent messengers to "every peoples" (and other intelligent creatures, like the Jinn--Genies) through the ages. The Judeo-Christian sequence of people who have kept the faith since the days of Adam is seen as one such line leading through Isaac to David and Jesus and through Ishmael to Muhammad. Muhammad is seen as the final and best of them.

Jesus is seen as a precursor to Muhammad, much as Christians see John the Baptist as a precursor to Jesus. See Isa.

One more significant item: Muslims believe that Muhammad was the only messenger of The Creator to come with a ministry aimed at all mankind; that is, Islam is a religion for all humans, while Judaism, for example, was for one tribe/ethnic group (the Hebrews/Jews), and Jesus was sent, like all of the Hebraic Prophets from Abraham through Moses and down to John the Baptist, also as a Prophet to the Jews. In the Christian canon, too, it is only after his crucifiction that either a resurrected Jesus or Paul (depending on what your beliefs are) declares a ministry to the Gentiles. The Muslims, in short believe in Jesus as a Prophet, but not in his Universal Ministry.

As I said, see Isa. (The word is the Arabic form of the Hebraic "Yeshua" or Latin Iseus.)

Hope that helps.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 04:23, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)