[15:19] <chzz> Ktowie ok, so...I'll look now
[15:20] <Ktowie> thanks much, chzz. wow you're busy.
[15:20] <Ktowie> btw, when it's done, could we also redirect a search for Bardor Tulku to this article, so people can find it when they type in Bardor Tulku Rinpoche or Bardor Tulku?
[15:21] <chzz> Ktowie yep; no problem with that; redirects are cheap :-)
[15:23] <chzz> Ktowie I have to object to the first bit; "is an incarnation of a nineteenth/twentieth century treasure revealer Terchen Barway Dorje." <-- he may *claim* to be, or others may claim that he is - but it is not a provable 'fact' that he is actually an incarnation of that entity. (heh, well, yes, we *could* get into a metaphysics argument about it but...well, you know what I mean?)
[15:24] <Ktowie> then we have problem. i guess the same will aply to the first paragraph in the bio.
[15:25] <Ktowie> how about if i change it to "is a holder of the treasure lineage of Terchen Barway Dorje?
[15:26] <chzz> Ktowie "treasure lineage"?
[15:26] <chzz> Ktowie u mean treasured?
[15:27] <chzz> Ktowie in which case...no, not neutral. "is a holder of the lineage of Terchen Barway Dorje" may be ok...but it's a bit strange English. "is a decendent of Terchen Barway Dorje" ? is that correct?
[15:27] <Ktowie> no, "treasure lineage' or "terma lineage," "terma" being a Tibetan word for treasure. there is an artcile about "terma" on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terma_(Buddhism)
[15:28] <chzz> ah, right, fair enough; yes - with a link, fine
[15:29] <Ktowie> not really. enlgish is not my first language. does decedent indicate family conection? if so, it would not be correct. he is the Third Bardor Tulku like the Dalai Lama is the 14th Dalai Lama.
[15:30] <chzz> "decendent" means a relation; e.g. grandfather-father-son etc
[15:31] <Ktowie> then we cannot say he is a decendent. the whole thing is based on the concept of reincarnation. Can we say, "he is the third in the lineage of Terchen Barway Dorje?"
[15:31] <chzz> But (I think) "Dalai Lama" is a title, like a King or the Pope? Is "Terchen Barway Dorje" also a honorary title, or is it a name?
[15:33] <Ktowie> Dalai Lama is a title but it is not given to people in the way we think about it in the west. his reincarnation is found and the child becomes the next Dalai Lama. The whole Tibetan system works that way. Terchen Barway Dorje is a title + name. Terchen = terton chenpo, which is title "great treasure revealer. Barway Dorje is a name. Bardor Tulku meane a tulku of Barway Dorje (Tibetans take first parts of each name and paste them together.
[15:34] <chzz> well...let's see how they do it for his article...
[15:35] <chzz> "The Dalai Lama is a lineage of religious leaders of the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism. "
[15:35] <chzz> ^that sounds good, see?
[15:35] <Ktowie> the article on Dalal Lama says that he "is believe to be a rebirth." Maybe that's how we could solve this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_lama
[15:35] <chzz> Yes, but, notice their clear first sentence. The 1-line version of what the article is all about.
[15:35] <chzz> 1st sentence is very important
[15:36] <chzz> The wording of that one makes it quite clear; it is talking about the
*role* of Dalai Lama, not the particular current one
[15:36] <chzz> ...and then, yes, going on to say "believed to be the rebirth' etc...
[15:37] <Ktowie> ok. Barwar Dorje tulkus are not religious leaders in the sense we think about the Dalai Lama but they represent a religious lineage. They are believed to be reborn to continue the particular lineage of teachings. does that make sense?
[15:39] <chzz> Are we talking about the first sentence?
[15:41] <Ktowie> I suppose so. Right now I am mainly trying to find a language that will be acceptable for this entry. Since I am a Buddhist myself, I think in terms of reincarnation but I understand your point, so I am trying to find an "objective" way of talking about this, so I can put it into a sentence.
[15:42] <chzz> Ktowie Well, the very first sentence should be a very short idea of 'what it is all about'. For example...
[15:43] <chzz> "A banana is a yellow fruit of the xxx family"
[15:43] <chzz> or whatever
[15:43] <Ktowie> chzz: i will try to re-write those parts: first sentence and the beginning of the bio and will show it to you again.
[15:43] <chzz> from the manual;
[15:43] <chzz> The article should begin with a short declarative sentence, answering two questions for the nonspecialist reader: "What (or who) is the subject?" and "Why is this subject notable
[15:44] <chzz> ok...old on a bit Ktowie...I'll look a bit further, see what else may need looking at...
[15:44] <chzz> "The arduous journey" not neutral, saying that it was "arduous" - opinion. I suggest removing the word
[15:45] <chzz> "where he offers teachings and empowerments" what are
"empowerments"? maybe remove that word
[15:46] <chzz> "a ground-breaking ceremony" not neutral; just "A ceremony" would be fine
[15:46] <chzz> "Furthermore, it is Bardor Rinpoche's intention" - don't start a sentence with "Furthermore" - you don't need it
[15:47] <Ktowie> well, if you cros the Himalaya on foot...
[15:47] <chzz> Hm.... if you said, "A 1234km journey" - and let the reader decide how hard that was - that would be fine. But "A difficult journey" etc is opinion, not fact. See what I mean?
[15:48] <Ktowie> an empowerment is term, like baptism in Christianity. would you remove a reference to baptism in an artcile about Christian tradition?
[15:48] <chzz> Is there an article or section of an article that we can link to, to explain it?
[15:49] <chzz> The problem was because the word "empowerment" has a meaning outside of this spiritual meaning, and in that sense, the sentence reads like spam... "empowerment" has become one of these "buzz-words"
[15:49] <chzz> ....if it can be wiki-linked, that would be fine, as that would clarify its meaning in this context
[15:50] <Ktowie> ground-breaking means when they break ground to start building. is there another term in English that would be neutral? I will look for an article on an empowerment.
[15:50] <chzz> Ah, right; "ground-breaking" in English means a fantastic, amazing breaktrough.
[15:51] <chzz> "foundation-laying" ?
[15:51] <Ktowie> btw, can I get a copy of this exchange so I can follow your remarks when I work on the article?
[15:51] <chzz> Did they dig holes and put in the posts/stones?
[15:52] <chzz> Ktowie no easy way, but, yes... I can copy it and paste it to a page for you. I'll have to remove other peoples comments; public logging isn't allowed in here. But yes, it can be done
[15:53] <chzz> I can't think of an English phrase for a ground-breaking thing, in that sense; we don't have the same thing.
[15:53] <Ktowie> no, in our circles :-) (see Tibetans Buddhist build a lot in this area) we have two ceremonies: a ground-breaking when there is a symbolic breaking of the ground before an excavating, and then once they are ready for the foundation, there is a foundation ceremony. I'll have to think about how to express is
[15:53] <chzz> right, ok
[15:53] <chzz> Go for that, then. A symbolic "breaking of the ground" cerenmony
[15:53] <Ktowie> I'll just say something about the ceremony initiating the construction or something to that effect?
[15:54] <chzz> yes
[15:54] <chzz> And...apart from that, it's fine to go live. There is one thing that I would suggest as an improvement;
[15:55] <Ktowie> go ahead
[15:55] <chzz> Re. the "published teachings" - they should have more details, such as ISBN, author, and things like that. This can be done easily using a template, and even easier because there is a tool to make the template. You just need to find the ISBN number
[15:56] <chzz> Then, if you go here and put in the ISBN, it should make a nice
template.
[15:56] <chzz> http://tools.wikimedia.pl/~holek/isbn.php
[15:56] <Ktowie> I can find ISBN number, no problem. There are no ISBN numbers for the DVDs though. Btw, do you think I shuld separate DVDs and books?
[15:57] <chzz> ...you would then list it like this, for example;
[15:57] <chzz> *{{Cite book | last=Bergreen | first=Laurence | authorlink=Laurence Bergreen | coauthors= | title=Marco Polo: From Venice to Xanadu | date= | publisher=Quercus | location= | isbn=978-1-84724-345-4 }}
[15:58] <chzz> ...that was a book I just grabbed and put the ISBN into that tool
[15:58] <chzz> Ktowie yes, separate them, use a subsubheading === DVDs ===
[16:00] <Ktowie> great. will do. thanks so much! now, I have taken notes, but would you copy and paste this exchange onto my page? You can leave other people's comments if it does not violate anything, I can read between the lines :-)
[16:00] <chzz> Ktowie yes, I will. It might take me 15 mins or something; I'll link it on yr talk page ASAP
[16:01] <Ktowie> much appreciated
[16:01] <chzz> Ktowie it's really ready to go live, so...see you in a bit :-)
�07[16:25] <Ktowie> chzz: how about this for the 'lede' with the 'lineage' linked to the relevant Wiki article: Bardor Tulku Rinpoche is a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, a contemporary holder of the religious lineage of Terchen Barway Dorje. [1] Rinpoche lives with his family in upstate New York, where he has established a Tibetan Buddhist center, Kunzang Palchen Ling, [2] in Red Hook. He teaches widely across the United States and abroad. [3]
�06[16:25] * chzz reads...
�01[16:26] <chzz> Ktowie ok, 1 complaint, 1 question
[16:27] <Ktowie> what else would i expect :-)
�01[16:27] <chzz> Ktowie complaint: "teaches widely" - weasel-word; how widely?
�01[16:28] <chzz> Ktowie question: Was the previous one also called "Bardor Tulku Rinpoche"? Will the next have the same name? Or, does the name change?
[16:28] <Ktowie> from east to west coast
�01[16:29] <chzz> Ktowie ...so prove it...has he taught in Rachel, Nevada for example?
[16:30] <Ktowie> they are all called Bardor (short for Barway Dorje, which was the first one) Tulku (incarnation). yes, we sometime refer to him as the Third Bardor Tulku (third in the line of incarnations of Barway Dorje)
�01[16:30] <chzz> I could cope with, "He teaches in many locations across the US..." - as long as, in the body, it gives a decent list of places (with refs)
[16:30] <Ktowie> ok, you got me. can i just say that he teaches in the US and abroad?
�01[16:31] <chzz> re. places -yes, fine.
�01[16:31] <chzz> re, name... so, is there only ever, in history, one person known as "Bardor Tulku Rinpoche"?
[16:34] <Ktowie> it really is confusing, isn't it? Ok, the guy who live in 19th/20th century was named Barway Dorje. You could call him Bardor but he was not yet an incarnation (tulku) of Barway Dorje (he was an incarnation of other people but not of Barwary Dorje becasue he was the first Barway Dorje. Then he was reborn as the second Barway Dorje or Second Bardor Tulku Rinpoche. And the one aout whom this article talks is the Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche. Does it
�01[16:36] <chzz> So, the "Rinpoche" bit is unique to this individual person?
�01[16:37] <chzz> ah, no. it's not. hmm.
�01[16:37] <chzz> See...my point is this;
�01[16:37] <chzz> The article on "Dalai Lama" does not talk just about the *current* dalai lama.
[16:37] <Ktowie> no, Rinpoche means "precious" and is a title that all incarnate lamas hold. It can also be given to a lama if he is exceptional in some way.
�01[16:37] <chzz> It talks about the role of it
�01[16:38] <chzz> Similarly, we have [[Monarchy of the United Kingdom]] and [[Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom]] two separate articles
[16:40] <Ktowie> I understand but the Dalai Lama's role is bigger than that of Bardor Tulku Rinpoche. I think case we wanted to start with an article about the particualr living teacher. I agree that a separate article about the lineage of Terchen Barway Doroje, or about Bardor Tulkus, might be in order. we have to start some place though. Particularly that it would hard to write an article about the lineage of Bardor Tulkus if we have to avoid talking about reinc
�01[16:41] <chzz> YesBut...in 100 years time, there will be the 5th or 6th "Bardor Tulku Rinpoche"
[16:41] <Ktowie> yes, we sure hope so
�01[16:41] <chzz> yeah, so the article will look silly then.
�01[16:42] <chzz> And even now, it's not fair, from the historical perspective, to have an article called "Bardor Tulku Rinpoche" and just talk about this partic one, rather than all of 'em
[16:42] <Ktowie> thank goodness wikipedia allows for edits, and we do not considre this article closed in its current form
�01[16:43] <chzz> Supposing someone comes along and wants to write an article about the last one
�01[16:44] <chzz> It's the same as having an article called "Prime Minister of England" and only talking about Gordon Brown.
[16:44] <Ktowie> we are refrring to a book about the first Barway Dorje. to be honest i don;t think there is anything available in Englsih about the 2nd one. Bardor Tulku Rinpoche just started his lineage activity a few years ago.everything is still in Tibetan. he needs more time to get the info translated
�01[16:45] <chzz> Yes, but it's misleading to say that this guy is *the* Bardor Tulku Rinpoche
�01[16:45] <chzz> He's not. He is *a* Bardor Tulku Rinpoche.
[16:45] <Ktowie> Well, then we need to say Third Bardor Tulku becasue he is *the* 3rd Bardor Tulku
�01[16:46] <chzz> sure, that's one way of doing it
[16:46] <Ktowie> exactly
�01[16:47] <chzz> And you could, if you wanted, redirect [[Bardor Tulku Rinpoche]] to him. For now. Until you, or someone, gets a chance to write that article, and explain 'em all.
�01[16:47] <chzz> 'coz really, [[Bardor Tulku Rinpoche]] should be an explanation of the role, and a list of 'em
[16:50] <Ktowie> yes, i agree. so that's what i'd like to do: I will call the article the 3rd Bardor Tulku Rinpche, and redirect Bardor Tulku and Bardor Tulku Rinpoche to him. I think there is plan for the translation of the biography of the 2nd, so hopefully more information will be available to write an article about Bardor Tulku Rinpoche
�01[16:52] <chzz> even if you write a little tiny article for it...and add more later.
�01[16:52] <chzz> Thing is...if you add a small article, sometimes other people come along and add stuff. Which is nice.
[16:53] <Ktowie> i will do my best. or find someone to do it. i will be gone for about 5 weeks starting on the 27th, so it would be hard for me to do immediately. are you saying you's rather wait with publishing this one until the genarl one is written?
�01[16:54] <chzz> no; better to make it live.
�01[16:54] <chzz> Just choose the appropriate name. And the article should start with that name, too. (in bold)
[16:55] <Ktowie> ok, so now the "lede' says:
[16:55] <Ktowie> Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche is a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, a contemporary holder of the religious lineage of Terchen Barway Dorje. [1] Rinpoche lives with his family in upstate New York, where he has established a Tibetan Buddhist center, Kunzang Palchen Ling, [2] in Red Hook. He teaches across the United States and abroad. [3]
[16:56] <Ktowie> and the word 'lineage' is linked to a Wiki article on lineage in Buddhism
�01[16:57] <chzz> Prob. "The '''third Barador Tulku Rinpoche''' is a...
[16:57] <Ktowie> yes, sorry, we don't use article in Polish, I alwasy forget
�07[16:59] <Ktowie> chzz: i need to go away for half an hour. can we resume later? i am in the process of implementing your other edits.
[17:28] <Ktowie> hi again. so we stooped at the point of getting the 'lede' approved. Is it ok like this:
[17:28] <Ktowie> The Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche is a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, a contemporary holder of the religious lineage of Terchen Barway Dorje. [1] Rinpoche lives with his family in upstate New York, where he has established a Tibetan Buddhist center, Kunzang Palchen Ling, [2] in Red Hook. He teaches across the United States and abroad. [3]
[17:29] <Ktowie> the word 'lineage' links to the relevant Wiki article.
�01[17:32] <chzz> Ktowie Do you have a source that gives his birth name?
[17:32] <Ktowie> yes, Rinpoche is the way Tibetan Buddhists refer to ALL tulkus and to some other lamas who have been granted the title.
[17:33] <Ktowie> I can probably find sources for his different names as Tibetan tulkus are given many ways along the way. they don;t have birth certificates in Tibet, though.
�01[17:34] <chzz> just wondered...normally, like e.g. a Pope or someth, we'd say, '''Chzz''' (born as '''baa''') was a ...
[17:37] <Ktowie> hi, this guys went on foot over the Himalayas when he was about 9, running away from the Chinese. all his family died on the way. i do not think there exist any birth reated documentaion. we have recognition documents, which are signed by our "pope" HH the 16th (at the time) Karmapa. They confirm Bardr Tulku Rinpoche as Bardor Tulku Rinpoche,.
�01[17:37] <chzz> What does it say on his passport?
[17:37] <Ktowie> Bardor Tulku
�01[17:38] <chzz> well, fair enough, I suppose
[17:38] <Ktowie> so we have the recogniztion letter that says his name is Venerable Bardor Tulku Rinpoche
�07[17:44] <Ktowie> chzz: i take it the 'lede' has passed. can we move on to the article itself?
[17:45] <Ktowie> the first sentence: Born in 1949 in Kham, East Tibet, the Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche [4] is believed to be a rebirth of a nineteenth/twentieth century meditation master, Terchen Barway Dorje (1836-1920).
[17:45] <Ktowie> will that be objective enough?
�01[17:46] <chzz> Ktowie it really should have the name of the article (in bold) as the first or second word, if at all possible. So, erm.
�01[17:47] <chzz> The '''Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche''' (born 1949, in [[Kham]], [[East Tibet]]) is believed to be a rebirth...
�01[17:47] <chzz> ...but, hang on there. "believed to be"? who by?
�01[17:47] <chzz> ah
�01[17:47] <chzz> Right. Sorry. By 'first sentence', I thought you meant the 1st in the whole article
[17:48] <Ktowie> let's back up, i'm getting lost. is the lede ok or are we still talking about it?
�01[17:48] <chzz> erm. hang on, I'll open it again
�06[17:49] * chzz was busy writing a nartikel; closed everyth
�01[17:50] <chzz> Ktowie lede; Tibetan Buddhist - both should be wikilinks
�01[17:50] <chzz> Ktowie and Red Hook
�01[17:50] <chzz> ok, now...bio?
[17:51] <Ktowie> Tibetan Buddhist as a phrase linked toegther to the article on Tibetan Buddhism?
�01[17:51] <chzz> I would suggest linking each separately, one to the country, one to buddhism. But it's up to you, really.
[17:51] <Ktowie> got ya
�01[17:52] <chzz> I suppose Tib Bud might be more applicable; either way, really
[17:55] <Ktowie> Tibetan Buddhist links to Tibetan Buddhism; Red Hook links to Red Hook.
�01[17:56] <chzz> ok. "believed to be a rebirth of..." - by who?
[17:56] <Ktowie> taken verbatim from the article on Dalai Lama: "The Dalai Lama is believed to be the rebirth of a long line of tulkus,..."
�01[17:57] <chzz> See, the problem is, if you write that, it sounds rather like we - Wikipedia - believe it. And some might, but some don't.
�01[17:57] <chzz> hmph; I didn't review that article :-)
�01[17:57] <chzz> ok, anyway; not that bothered. I'll read on...
�01[18:00] <chzz> "Some of his teachings have been published as books and DVDs; many more still await publication."
�01[18:00] <chzz> Quite a bold statement, and no citation
�01[18:02] <chzz> "When the new facility is completed, all traditions of Tibetan Buddhism will be taught there" - that's a prediction of the future; rephrase it...but also, what does if mean, "all traditions of Tibetan Buddhism will be taught there"?
�01[18:02] <chzz> & next sentence - sounds like "original research"; ie "It is Bardor Rinpoche's intention to make the center available to people of other spiritual affiliations as a quiet and sacred space where they can seek refuge from the busyness of daily life."
[18:02] <Ktowie> which part of it? the "some" that have been published are listed below the article, the "many more" are on hunderds of audio tapes in a small taping room on top od a mountain in a Tibetan Buddhitt monastery in Woodtsock. no way to prove it. i will remove the statement about those awaiting publication.
�01[18:03] <chzz> yep; "no way to prove it" = remove it
�01[18:03] <chzz> I agree that 'some have been published" is OK, because some are later detailed in the article
[18:03] <Ktowie> there are four major schools in Tibetan Buddhism (Geluk, Kagyu, Nyingma, and Sakya). The center will host teachers from all these traditions. How do you think we can rephrase it to reflect this thought?
�01[18:04] <chzz> all?
�01[18:04] <chzz> erm.
�01[18:05] <chzz> is there a source to support it?
�01[18:06] <chzz> Oops; I've just noticed that there are lots of problems with the references used :-(
[18:06] <Ktowie> yes, that's the idea. in other words the doors will be open to teachers of all these traditions. the center will be inviting teachers not based on their affiliation to a particular school. not sure how else i can put it.
�01[18:07] <chzz> Yes, but...is there a reliable source?
�01[18:07] <chzz> ...and, this is going to be a problem, I'm afraid :-( I didn't really look at the refs before, but now I do...some of them don't look like reliable, independent sources
�01[18:08] <chzz> :-(
�01[18:08] <chzz> Sorry; I thought we'd discussed about reliable sources before; hence I didn't really look at them until now, today
�01[18:10] <chzz> Gah; they're mostly self-references; not independent reliable sources
[18:11] <Ktowie> not mostly. KTD is an official seat of the Karmapa like Vatican is an official seat of the Pope. Why would it not be a reliable source? Would you consider Vatican a non-reliable source if you were writing an article about a Catholiz bishop?
�01[18:12] <chzz> no, I wouldn't
�01[18:12] <chzz> 'coz it's a primary source, not independent of the subject
�01[18:12] <chzz> And what about books written by the subject?
[18:13] <Ktowie> They are not references to support the content of the article. They are exampples of his teachings. This is what he does, he teaches Buddhism. When you have an article about an articst do you not list his works?
[18:14] <Ktowie> That's why they are not listed as reference but as a list of publications.
�01[18:14] <chzz> ok; let's go from the top;
�01[18:14] <chzz> "The Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche is a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, a current holder of the religious lineage of Terchen Barway Dorje"
�01[18:14] <chzz> prove that
�01[18:14] <chzz> ref1 is a wiki, so that's no use
�01[18:14] <chzz> ...anyone can edit a wiki, we know that much...
�01[18:15] <chzz> I can make a page on a wiki now, saying I'm the Queen of England. But I can't cite it.
[18:15] <Ktowie> i think you are beginning to be rude. we are talking about my teacher here.
�01[18:16] <chzz> Sorry, I do not intend to be rude; I am not saying whether anything is true or false - I'm not interested in that; all I am interested in is, if the information is *verifiable* - if it can be checked through an independent reliable source.
�01[18:18] <chzz> Imagine the opposite scenario; imagine that we make the article, and then someone adds some defamatory information, citing a wiki. We would not permit that, either.
[18:18] <Ktowie> yes, there have been articles about him, but using your logic they will all be self-references, becasue they would all be Buddhist publications.
[18:20] <Ktowie> I will have to look. I do have an official document from the 16th Karmapa with BTR's photo that states this is who he is (meaning Bardor Tulku, for Tibetans is automatically means an incarnation of Terchen Barway Dorje, so the document does not mention Terchen Barway Dorje.
�01[18:20] <chzz> No, not necessarily. Just because it is a 'buddhist publication' doesn't mean it is not a reliable source. It might be, it might not; it depends. If it was widely published by a reputable publisher, then it might be considered a reliable source. If it is a minor publication not in widespread circulation, then it may not be; perhaps it would need checking with the "reliable sources noticeboard"
[18:20] <Ktowie> Would an article on Rangjung Yeshe Wikipedia be considered a reliable source? It is a Tibetan Buddhist branch of Wiki.
[18:21] <Ktowie> Or an article in Snow Lion Publications newsletter?
�01[18:22] <chzz> Re. the wiki - a wiki is a tertiary source; in the same way, you should not cite wikipedia - instead, you should look at the references given, and cite those.
[18:22] <Ktowie> Please look at this article. It was the inspiration for the article I am trying to post:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khenpo_Karthar_Rinpoche
�01[18:22] <chzz> Re. Snow Lion - I don't know, I'd have to look into it
[18:23] <Ktowie> am I to believe that the possibility of getting something published is dependent on who happens to be reviewing the article?
�01[18:24] <chzz> No; it depends on policy. You're quite welcome to make it a live article now; I'll even tell you exactly how to do so; I wouldn't personally recommend doing so, because I think it likely that it might be deleted
�01[18:25] <chzz> What I mean is, for example, this:
[18:25] <Ktowie> i understand you are trying to help. but please at that other article I showed you, and please show me how the refernces provided there are more reliable than the references we provide in our article.
�01[18:25] <chzz> It says, "Rinpoche lives with his family in upstate New York".
�01[18:25] <chzz> Then there is a reference.
�01[18:25] <chzz> There is nothing in that reference that says anything about where he and his family live.
�01[18:26] <chzz> I'm not saying that the other article is OK; it probably isn't; maybe someone will look at it and delete it
�01[18:27] <chzz> or, at least, remove all the unreferenced stuff.
�01[18:27] <chzz> Anything that isn't referenced can be challenged, and if it can't be proved through reliable sources, it can be removed.
[18:30] <Ktowie> ok, I will try to find more "reliable" references, but there may simply have to be some things that have to stay unreferred at the risk of getting it deleted.
�01[18:30] <chzz> I only really noticed 'coz I read the first line of the bio; the lede doesn't necessarily need references, because everything in the lede should be expanded on in the main article.
�01[18:31] <chzz> Once I got to the bio, I saw the first line, "Born in 1949 in Kham, East Tibet, the Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche" - and checked ref 4.
�01[18:31] <chzz> And it looks like it doesn't say anything about when /where he was born; it's just a 'see also' to two websites, it's not a reference
[18:33] <Ktowie> Ref 4 sends you to his biography's on the web sites of KTD (the pope's seat) and his own center (the local church)
�01[18:33] <chzz> hence, about 24 hours ago, I said;
�01[18:33] <chzz> �01[18:15] <chzz> ok. Remember though, the subject *must* be "Notable", ok?
�01[18:33] <chzz> �01[18:15] <chzz> That means, "Significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"
�01[18:33] <chzz> �01[18:15] <chzz> Newspapers, books, stuff like that.
�01[18:33] <chzz> �01[18:15] <chzz> If an article doesn't have references, it will get deleted very quickly.
�01[18:33] <chzz> �01[18:16] <chzz> "significant coverage" - not passing mentions;
�01[18:33] <chzz> �01[18:16] <chzz> "reliable sources" - not blogs and things
�01[18:33] <chzz> [18:16] <basia> yep. this will be a bio of a Tibetan Buddhist teacher who has published books and is renowned.
�01[18:33] <chzz> �01[18:16] <chzz> "independent" - not the company website / the myspace page, etc
�01[18:33] <chzz> The website of his own foundation is not independent
[18:34] <Ktowie> but KTD is not his own foundation, we have been through this, it's the "pope's" web site. so if I remove his own church's site, will the other oe do?
�01[18:36] <chzz> not sure; I'm looking at it a bit. Is it totally unconnected with him?
[18:37] <Ktowie> he worked there for 30 years until last fall.
�02[18:37] * haza-w (n=irc@wikipedia/Haza-w) Quit ("Never look down on someone unless you're helping them up."�)
[18:37] <Ktowie> See the list of Kagyu teachers: fours row from the bottom, first thumb on the lft
[18:37] <Ktowie> http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/teachers/tea14.php
�01[18:38] <chzz> right; I mean...it might be considered a reliable source. I'm not sure. It would be much better if the info came from a published newspaper, book or magazine - or at least if some of it did. Something to affirm the notability, and to show that "significant coverage" thing
�01[18:38] <chzz> Something to 'back it up' a bit, I mean.
[18:39] <Ktowie> ok, thanks. i'll look for something.
�01[18:40] <chzz> something like this, for example;
�01[18:40] <chzz> http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/18/nyregion/finding-karma-through-youth-woodstock-s-tibetan-monastery-prepares-for-a-lama.html
[18:41] <Ktowie> Would you do me one more favor: could you send me the transcript of our exchange? It will help me look back at what I need to do.
�01[18:41] <chzz> I did do before; do you mean this one, since then?
[18:41] <Ktowie> yes, this one explaining the problem with the lack of reliable sources. thanks.
�01[18:42] <chzz> right, ok. I'll add it to the other one
[18:42] <Ktowie> thanks much. i'm siging off.
