User:Jza84/Sandbox4

Q1: Why aren't the traditional counties used as the primary geographic reference frame on Wikipedia?

A1: The term "traditional counties" appears to have its origins with the Association of British Counties. It does not have widespread use outside of their webspace. A process of consensus—the fundamental decision making tool on Wikipedia—was used to develop a convention at WP:UCC. This convention is based upon source material, and the outcome is that we use modern counties as this is the system used in "local and national government literature, some private sector literature, will be familiar to most readers and writers, and indeed the approach will apply even if boundaries change again". Contemporary maps with ancient county boundaries are not in circulation.

Q2: But the "traditional counties" were never abolished, so why aren't they used?

A2: Again, "traditional counties" is a term that does not have widespread usage outside of pressure-group's material. Several geographic counties, statelets, districts have been used in England, Wales, Scotland and Wales, and were never formally abolished, but it would be silly to say "Birmingham is in Mercia".

Wikipedia doesn't routinely publish that the historic counties of England were abolished, but rather that they were superceded and/or subject to boundary reforms. This approach is best because, for example, official bodies publish data (like population totals) for say Cheshire, according to modern boundaries.

Q3: The "traditional counties" are a natural part of British culture. Modern "counties" are a beautrocratic framework that nobody uses.

A3: The historic counties of England are an important aspect of English history, but they were never static and were also part of a beaurocratic system of land governance. Counties do no appear in nature; they are part of human geography; they are territories of land marked by mankind to administrate territory and people. The Industrial Revolution and modern transportation broadly made the ancient counties of England, Wales and Scotland archaic, out-dated and redundant.

Contemporary counties (in England) are used by the Office for National Statistics, as Lieutenancy areas, for constituencies and UK parliamentary representation, for the regions of England; they have representatives of the monarch, coats of arms, statutory boundaries etc - the historic counties of England do not.

Q4: But people don't say they are from Merseyside or Greater Manchester, but are Lancastrians.

A4: This is not true. A percentage were shown to identify more with Lancashire, but this does not make the historic counties a viable alternative primary geographic reference frame on Wikipedia. Merseyside and Greater Manchester also encompass parts of what were Cheshire and Yorkshire.

Q5: But take a look at the Government statement quoted in The Times, (1 April 1974), which says "The new county boundaries are administrative areas, and will not alter the traditional boundaries of counties, nor is it intended that the loyalties of people living in them will change, despite the different names adopted by the new administrative counties". Also, in September 1991, the Department of the Environment said "The Local Government Act 1972 did not abolish traditional counties, only administrative ones. Although for local government purposes some of the historic counties have ceased to be administrative areas, they continue to exist for other purposes".

A5: These quotes are routinely used by "traditional counties" advocates. However, the quotes are misattributations touted on sites like Facebook, but ultimately derived from the Association of British Counties. The first quote is not a government policy statement; it was the commentary of an anonymous official; the UK government does not publish its policy in a newspaper on the day an act comes into effect. There is also no author given. The second quote is part of a debate in the House of Commons from a junior Parliamentary Under-Secretary; it was the MPs opinion, not part of English law.

The historic counties are effectively redundant.

Q6: But people write their address using the "traditional counties". Nobody uses contemporary counties.

A6: This is not so. The postal counties of the United Kingdom were abolished by Royal Mail in 1996. But even before this date, they were not aligned to the historic county boundaries. For example Croxton Kerrial was and is in Leicestershire, but it's former postal county was Lincolnshire. Simillarly, Saddleworth's post town is Oldham, and its former postal county was Lancashire, despite having been in Yorkshire for centuries.

This argument is usually used in a Greater Mancunian context; Greater Manchester was not adopted as a postal county because of confusion with the Manchester post town.

Q7: But I was born in Lancashire, not "Greater Manchester".

A7: Census returns after 1974 will say you live in Greater Manchester, not Lancashire, if you lived in Greater Manchester. Civil Registration has been carried out according to modern boundaries since 1889 and 1974.

Q8: Manchester is in the "traditional county" of Lancashire though.

A7: No. Manchester spans territory that was in both Lancashire and Cheshire. To say Manchester is in the "traditional county" of Lancashire is incorrect because this would introduce a neologism and the term "traditional county" is not defined in law.