User:Jaakobou/Chat log

Start of Jaakobou buffer: Sat Dec 05 12:51:59 2009

Session Ident: Jaakobou (n=Miranda@IP ADDRESS REDACTED)

<Jaakobou> heyo
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes?
<Jaakobou> are you an admin on en wiki ?
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes.....
<Jaakobou> I'm in trouble
<Dragonfly6-7> go on
<Jaakobou> I posted a request for suggestions on SlimVirign being rude after I respond to a content query with sources and a civili and collaborative response
<Jaakobou> I posted about it... and suddenly a cabal of her friends are falsly paining me as an extremist lunatic
<Dragonfly6-7> uh huh
<Dragonfly6-7> oh dear
<Jaakobou> with suggestions that I'd be banned
<Jaakobou> by ChrisO... no less... who's already been blocked and banned and warned multiple times for his activity on the said page
<Jaakobou> and Tiamut...
<Dragonfly6-7> well, I can't promise that I can resolve the situation
<Jaakobou> who went on my page to tell me she finds the term Israeli-Arab offensive and should only be called Palestinian
<Jaakobou> nothing in my recent edit was extreme or even could be portrayed as such
<Jaakobou> so its just a strange barrage that I find no other name for than a cabal
<Jaakobou> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Query_-_incivil_conduct_I_can.27t_seem_to_resolve_on_my_own
Dragonfly6-7 shrugs
<Dragonfly6-7> "no other name for than a cabal" - that's kind of an odd statement
<Dragonfly6-7> hold on
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm doing several things at once
<Jaakobou> I really need a review by an external person before they get enough people there to end up blocking me without anything that I've done
<Jaakobou> please bump this one up on the priority list
<Dragonfly6-7> Please hold.
<Jaakobou> holding
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm doing several things at once. Okay?
<Jaakobou> yes
<Dragonfly6-7> let me ask you something
<Dragonfly6-7> did you intend to be rude to SV ?
<Jaakobou> certainly not
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you see anything wrong with posting on SV's talkpage, saying something along the lines of...
<Dragonfly6-7> hm
<Jaakobou> she was a tad rude there by agreeing with ChrisO when it was my suggested change to the text... other than making note on that...
<Dragonfly6-7> hold on
<Jaakobou> I don't think I did anything that could be seen as rude
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm not finished here
<Dragonfly6-7> clearly, it was seen as rude
<Jaakobou> ah... I know what you're talking about
<Dragonfly6-7> so don't interrupt me
<Dragonfly6-7> What I am suggesting -
<Jaakobou> she claimed I was ignoring other people... when nobody raised any complaint on the talk page in regards to my edit
<Dragonfly6-7> I said don't interrupt me
<Jaakobou> go on
<Dragonfly6-7> now, STOP UNTIL I'VE TOLD YOU I'M DONE
<Jaakobou> yes
<Dragonfly6-7> What I am suggesting
<Dragonfly6-7> is that you go on her talk page
<Dragonfly6-7> and post something along the lines of
<Dragonfly6-7> "I apologize for any perceived rudeness on my part; it was not my intention to be rude, but I can understand that you perceived it that way."
<Dragonfly6-7> Now, tell me: do you have any objections to my proposed remedy?
<Dragonfly6-7> Other than the question of whether or not it will work
<Dragonfly6-7> do you have any objections with actually doing it?
<Jaakobou> I don't have an objection to that in general
<Jaakobou> but I opned a thread because she accused me of holding tha page hostage
<Jaakobou> and it doesn't address that issue
<Jaakobou> plus.. she doesn't seem to suggest I'm incivil
<Jaakobou> she's suggesting I'm an evil problem in wikipedia
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Dragonfly6-7> Hold on; getting water
<Dragonfly6-7> Are you familiar with arbcom?
<Jaakobou> yes
<Dragonfly6-7> What is your opinion of taking cases to arbcom?
<Jaakobou> a bit concerned that ChrisO and SlimVirign are seen as serious contributors and that they have friends
<Jaakobou> i'm not perfect... but I tried my best to collaborate and find consensus
<Jaakobou> and ignore incivilities
<Dragonfly6-7> That's not an answer to my question.
<Jaakobou> I just don't know what Arbcom will be able to see
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop,
<Dragonfly6-7> That's not an answer either.
<Jaakobou> you asked for my opinion
<Jaakobou> i'm not sure
<Dragonfly6-7> What is your opinion of taking cases to arbcom, in general?
<Jaakobou> that's my opinion
<Dragonfly6-7> okay. Hold on, let me reread the scrollback.
<Dragonfly6-7> "<Jaakobou> I posted a request for suggestions on SlimVirign being rude after I respond to a content query with sources and a civil and collaborative response"
<Dragonfly6-7> let me see if I have this correct
<Dragonfly6-7> SV asked a question about content
<Dragonfly6-7> you responded with sources
<Dragonfly6-7> SV responded to your response.... rudely.
<Dragonfly6-7> Is that it?
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes, no?
<Dragonfly6-7> If I want an expansion, I'll ask for one. Please answer.
<Jaakobou> yesw
<Jaakobou> she was rude
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Jaakobou> I responded to George
<Jaakobou> and she said the page is held hostage by me
<Jaakobou> ...for 3 years
<Dragonfly6-7> George asked about content, you responded to George, SV said "Jaakobou is holding the page hostage" ?
<Dragonfly6-7> is that it?
<Jaakobou> something like that... there was also that she reverted me claiming I ignored other people... when no one even made a comment on that talkpage
<Jaakobou> and I waited nicely for a couple days
<Jaakobou> to see if any objection would be raised
<Dragonfly6-7> she reverted you on the article, you mean?
<Jaakobou> yes
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Dragonfly6-7> by the way
<Jaakobou> here's the revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_al-Durrah_incident&action=historysubmit&diff=328967313&oldid=328963308
<Dragonfly6-7> hold on
<Jaakobou> (holding)
<Dragonfly6-7> would you consider the term "Israeli Arab" to apply to the Druze population as well?
<Dragonfly6-7> as a side note
<Jaakobou> I'm not entirely sure... I think yes, if thye were Israeli citizens... but maybe I'm incorrect
<Dragonfly6-7> as I understand it, there are Druze who are members of the Knesset
<Jaakobou> yeah
<Dragonfly6-7> may I ask your first language?
<Jaakobou> one was a minister
<Jaakobou> hebrew
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Jaakobou> i think might still be a minister
<Dragonfly6-7> now, here's something to consider
<Jaakobou> not sure
<Dragonfly6-7> "people disagreed with these changes on talk; please don't just ignore them"
<Dragonfly6-7> "disagreed"
<Dragonfly6-7> past tense
<Dragonfly6-7> it has happened
<Dragonfly6-7> not necessarily referring to in the immediate past
<Jaakobou> it was a new edit for the most part
<Dragonfly6-7> hold on
<Jaakobou> no one explained a disagreement
<Dragonfly6-7> I believe this is a problem which would not have occurred if you both had been writing in, for instance, Greek
<Dragonfly6-7> or possibly ancient Greek
<Dragonfly6-7> or if SV had been much more fastidious about her word choice in her edit summary
<Jaakobou> maybe (D
<Dragonfly6-7> also
<Dragonfly6-7> you'll note that SV did say "please", yes?
<Jaakobou> sure
<Jaakobou> I responded by asking on the talk page that she explain this
<Jaakobou> and she hasn't
<Jaakobou> Heyo SlimVirgin,

<Jaakobou> I promise to respond to anything you write and try to find a phrasing that works for you as well if you please try to collaborate here.

<Jaakobou> Warm regards, JaakobouChalk Talk 12:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay
<Dragonfly6-7> that was on the article talk?
<Jaakobou> yes... my revert came a day after that... when no response was coming
<Jaakobou> 10:09, 2 December 2009
<Jaakobou> she was quite active in that timespan
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay
<Dragonfly6-7> had you considered leaving a message on her usertalk?
<Jaakobou> anyways... I stayed civil
<Jaakobou> and George elaborated on his concerns
<Jaakobou> so I responded to him and explained the suggested changes
<Jaakobou> Slim joined in by saying bad things about me
<Jaakobou> I tried
<Jaakobou> did that one as well
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Dragonfly6-7> Hold on.
<Jaakobou> also had an email discussion with her trying to be nice
<Jaakobou> and get on her good side
<Jaakobou> no luck there either
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Dragonfly6-7> by the way, this is about an incident in which a child died. Correct?
<Jaakobou> probably
<Dragonfly6-7> Rephrase.
<Dragonfly6-7> This article is about an incident which led to the death of a child.
<Dragonfly6-7> Correct?
<Jaakobou> well... one died for sure
<Jaakobou> there's conflicting versions about the second child
<Dragonfly6-7> but in the end, two children died?
<Jaakobou> basically.. the original report said "israel killed a boy" ... later investigations had doubts about that assertion and suggested the incident was staged
<Jaakobou> I actually removed the note that the child might be alive
<Jaakobou> from the lead
<Jaakobou> and SlimV reinserted it
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Dragonfly6-7> Can we agree that at least one child died?
<Jaakobou> yes... I can't be so I can't be blamed for promoting that he might *be alive though.
<Jaakobou> I don't recall ever promoting that one no matter how hard they claim I have
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm sorry, I don't completely understand your sentence.
<Jaakobou> SlimV said I promoted that the child is alive
<Dragonfly6-7> I can't be so I can't be blamed for (i understand the part that i've deleted)
<Dragonfly6-7> ah
<Jaakobou> I did the opposite in my edit
<Dragonfly6-7> SV stated that (you promoted (the idea (that the child was not killed in the incident)))
<Jaakobou> ok
<Dragonfly6-7> "I can't be so I can't be blamed "
<Dragonfly6-7> what?
<Jaakobou> I removed the text that he "might not be dead"
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop
<Dragonfly6-7> I am asking you to explain a sentence from this chat
<Dragonfly6-7> "I can't be so I can't be blamed"
<Dragonfly6-7> I can't be WHAT?
<Dragonfly6-7> Please rephrase
<Jaakobou> I can't be blamed*
<Jaakobou> ignore the extra words
<Dragonfly6-7> Good enough.
<Dragonfly6-7> incidentally - if you ask for my help, this is how I help
<Dragonfly6-7> I dig in and I analyze everything and I will tell you to stop talking if I think you're going in the wrong direction
<Jaakobou> its ok
<Dragonfly6-7> and I'm doing several things at once
<Dragonfly6-7> trying to catch up
<Dragonfly6-7> okay, let's see
<Dragonfly6-7> I'll say this
<Dragonfly6-7> it certainly is unfortunate that this particular article has been the sole focus of your editing over the past several weeks
<Dragonfly6-7> can you explain to me why you've only worked on that?>
<Jaakobou> my time is extremely limited and I worked only on a few articles
<Jaakobou> I've recently seen a new documentary about said incident
<Jaakobou> and became concerned with a few errors on the page
<Jaakobou> for example...
<Dragonfly6-7> STOP
<Jaakobou> ChrisO and SlimVirign stated in the lead that the videotape was several minutes when it was less than 20 seconds
<Dragonfly6-7> let's not say "errors"
<Dragonfly6-7> let's say "information in the article which conflicts with the information in the documentary"
<Jaakobou> and the source was a link to the youtube copy of the video
<Jaakobou> it conflicts all the sources
<Jaakobou> not one supports it
<Jaakobou> i'll stick with your phrasing
<Dragonfly6-7> We do not assert that the documentary is valid or invalid.
<Jaakobou> sure sure
<Dragonfly6-7> this is a VERY tendentious issue.
<Jaakobou> that was a big argument as well
<Dragonfly6-7> whether or not to accept the information in the documentary?
<Jaakobou> yes
<Jaakobou> not just taht
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Jaakobou> it went beyond that
<Dragonfly6-7> I said stop.
<Jaakobou> (stopping)
<Dragonfly6-7> Thank you.
<Dragonfly6-7> We will come back to that in a moment.
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm going to make a suggestion; again, I would like to NOT BE INTERRUPTED while I am doing so.
<Dragonfly6-7> I would like you to close that section on the noticeboard
<Dragonfly6-7> I would like you to say "DragonflySixtyseven has graciously volunteered his limited time to help me through this dispute."
<Dragonfly6-7> I would like you to say "I apologize to everyone for the inconvenience; please trust me when I say that my only goal is to improve the encyclopedia as a whole."
<Dragonfly6-7> er, 'section'
<Dragonfly6-7> 'complaint'
<Dragonfly6-7> I would like you to retract your complaint to the noticeboard, essentially.
<Dragonfly6-7> I will base my actions PARTLY on your statements
<Dragonfly6-7> but also on the statements of other people who have interacted with you.
<Jaakobou> I'm ok with that
<Dragonfly6-7> It's clear you're not a single-purpose account
<Jaakobou> I think we might need a short term mediator to get to a more civilized discussion
<Jaakobou> and that's what I was hoping for
<Dragonfly6-7> That's what I'm doing.
<Jaakobou> I start the thread saying I'm not looking for any sanction
<Jaakobou> there's probably nothing sanctionable either
<Dragonfly6-7> Right there we have a problem
<Dragonfly6-7> simply by starting the thread
<Jaakobou> I tried the one-on-one approach
<Jaakobou> but yes
<Dragonfly6-7> that pretty much obviates the statement that "oh, there's probably nothing sanctionable going on"
<Jaakobou> let's get to the next stage
<Jaakobou> I'll do as you suggested
<Dragonfly6-7> it's like calling the police, telling them "I don't want my neighbor prosecuted, and she probably isn't doing anything illegal, BUT HERE'S WHAT SHE'S DOING"
<Jaakobou> lol
<Jaakobou> well... a bit
<Jaakobou> but that was not my intention
<Dragonfly6-7> Maybe not, but that was certainly the effect
<Jaakobou> should I use archivetop/bottom ?
<Dragonfly6-7> to be honest, I don't use the admin noticeboards very often -
<Dragonfly6-7> I find them a festering sewer of drama
<Dragonfly6-7> so I'm not familiar with how that's done
<Dragonfly6-7> You know how it's done, I assume?
<Jaakobou> is this ok...
<Jaakobou> DragonflySixtyseven has graciously volunteered his limited time to help me through this dispute. I would like to note that I apologize to everyone for the inconvenience; please trust me when I say that my only goal is to improve the encyclopedia as a whole and I wanted to get to a more collaborative situation as recent comments felt to start to become a bit personal and conflict inducing. This thr
<Jaakobou> conflict inducing. This thread seemed to have had a bit of drama as well, but I hope we can start focusing on the content from now on. DS (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
<Dragonfly6-7> That's very good.
<Jaakobou> thanks
<Jaakobou> I'm honestly trying to do things in a collaborative way
<Dragonfly6-7> You understand that this sort of issue is VERY contentious
<Dragonfly6-7> and people who deal with this sort of article a lot
<Dragonfly6-7> tend to be a bit... sensitive about it
<Jaakobou> yeah
<Dragonfly6-7> let's see, let's see
<Dragonfly6-7> one point of conflict regarding the article
<Jaakobou> we can wait a bit before we go to the article btw... I'd like to let people have the chance to cool off a tad
<Dragonfly6-7> Hold on
<Dragonfly6-7> one point of conflict regarding the article is whether or not YOU stated that the child might not even be dead.
<Dragonfly6-7> Am I correct in my assessment of the situation?
<Dragonfly6-7> not in whether you said this
<Dragonfly6-7> but in whether that's something people are upset about
<Dragonfly6-7> is that it?
<Jaakobou> I'd be honest that I think they're trying to smear me without even thinking that I said it
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Dragonfly6-7> Don't attribute motives.
<Jaakobou> They know I didn't say he might be alive, but they say it non the less
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Jaakobou> kk
<Dragonfly6-7> Don't attribute knowledge or ignorance.
<Jaakobou> they say I am promoting that the boy might be alive. period
<Dragonfly6-7> There we go.
<Jaakobou> :)
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you understand the problem with attributing motives?
<Jaakobou> I disagree with that assertion
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you understand the problem with attributing motives?
<Jaakobou> (yes - to your question about motives)
<Dragonfly6-7> Good.
<Dragonfly6-7> now, for the record:
<Dragonfly6-7> Have you ever intended to state, on Wikipedia, that the child might still be alive?
<Jaakobou> I may have noted that several source suggested this
<Jaakobou> I have no real opoinion on the matter
<Dragonfly6-7> Thank you.
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you understand that a statement formulated in such a way
<Dragonfly6-7> can be very easy to misinterpret?
<Jaakobou> sure
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you know the English word "disingenuous" ?
<Dragonfly6-7> dihs-ihn-JEHN-yoo-uhs
<Jaakobou> yes. that word was used against me a couple times when I tried to explain an error ChrisO was making on the page
<Jaakobou> he ended up accepting that I was correct
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you know what it means?
<Jaakobou> yes
<Jaakobou> I know
<Dragonfly6-7> tell me what you think it means.
<Jaakobou> it means saying one thing while having an underlying agenda that contradicts the face value of what you're saying
<Dragonfly6-7> No.
<Dragonfly6-7> or... partly, but you're missing a lot of the connotations.
<Dragonfly6-7> do you know 'naive' ?
<Jaakobou> yes
<Jaakobou> my vocabulary isn't spectacular... but its not bad
<Dragonfly6-7> it's much better than my hebrew
<Dragonfly6-7> 'disingenuous' very much connotes that you are pretending to be naive
<Dragonfly6-7> it connotes that you are pretending to be ignorant, that you truly do not understand the Obvious Implications of what you are saying
<Jaakobou> I just saw that one as the 2nd option in the goog dictionary
<Dragonfly6-7> it's not just having a hidden agenda, it's the whole attitude
<Dragonfly6-7> <Dragonfly6-7> Have you ever intended to state, on Wikipedia, that the child might still be alive?
<Dragonfly6-7> <Jaakobou> I may have noted that several source suggested this
<Dragonfly6-7> this
<Dragonfly6-7> is a good example of behavior that - at least to me - seemed disingenuous
<Jaakobou> I discussed sources on the article
<Jaakobou> when a couple editors said "he'd dead"
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes.
<Dragonfly6-7> "He's dead." "Here's a link to a documentary that says he's not."
<Jaakobou> I didn't do that
<Dragonfly6-7> is that an adequate representation of the discussion?
<Jaakobou> there's far more than a single documentary to the matter
<Dragonfly6-7> "He's dead." "Here's a link to a whole bunch of documentaries and news stories that say he's not."
<Dragonfly6-7> is that an adequate representation of the discussion?
<Dragonfly6-7> don't be picky about exact quotes; I'm paraphrasing wildly
<Jaakobou> And, regarless... I'm not promoting that point since I think it is a fringe part of the staged scene theory
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Jaakobou> sllow me a second to phrase the argument
<Dragonfly6-7> is my paraphrase an adequate representation of the discussion?
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes or no?
<Jaakobou> your phrasing is close enough I guess
<Dragonfly6-7> Thank you.
<Jaakobou> I disagreed with the assertion that "we know for a fact that he's dead"
<Dragonfly6-7> Thank you.
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you understand that such a statement - "I disagree with the assertion that we know for a fact that he's dead" -
<Dragonfly6-7> can very easily be interpreted as "I do not believe he is dead, and here is my proof" ?
<Jaakobou> yes
<Dragonfly6-7> do you think that is part of what happened?
<Dragonfly6-7> in the article, I mean
<Jaakobou> maybe
<Dragonfly6-7> let me think....
<Jaakobou> this may have caused the bad blook yes.
<Jaakobou> bllod
<Jaakobou> blood*
<Jaakobou> but my edits haven't been about it
<Dragonfly6-7> can you explain to me why your internet time has been so limited lately?
<Dragonfly6-7> <Dragonfly6-7> can you explain to me why you've only worked on that?>
<Dragonfly6-7> <Jaakobou> my time is extremely limited and I worked only on a few articles
<Jaakobou> real life stuff
<Dragonfly6-7> understandable
<Jaakobou> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=329876398
<Dragonfly6-7> looking
<Dragonfly6-7> let me leave her a message
<Dragonfly6-7> done
<Dragonfly6-7> now I need to figure out what I was thinking about a few minutes ago
<Dragonfly6-7> okay. Let's start by posting to the talk page of the article, okay?
<Dragonfly6-7> Ready?
<Jaakobou> sure
<Dragonfly6-7> You're going to post something about how you know that this is not the sole topic of dispute on this article, but for the record you are not trying to state that you believe the child is still alive. You are going to admit that you made statements which could be interpreted that way
<Dragonfly6-7> and you are going to apologize for the confusion
<Dragonfly6-7> You are going to explain what you meant
<Dragonfly6-7> would it be reasonable to say that these are conspiracy theories?
<Jaakobou> there's one problem there
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Jaakobou> I asked people a number of times to explain where I made a comment that made them make such allegations and they couldn't
<Jaakobou> let's remove the "couldn't", and say "they didn't"
<Dragonfly6-7> Let me thnk about that.
<Jaakobou> I have to be honest. I don't think I'm the problem.
<Jaakobou> I understand how my comment may have been seen
<Jaakobou> but I think I've been focusing on collaborating with others
<Dragonfly6-7> I think it's fairly obvious that this is how your comment was seen
<Jaakobou> assuming you are corect
<Jaakobou> others have made offensive comments as well
<Dragonfly6-7> Perhaps
<Jaakobou> and have ignored reliable sources
<Dragonfly6-7> but I'm not working with them
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm working with you.
<Jaakobou> ok
<Jaakobou> i want to try improving on the siutainto
<Dragonfly6-7> situation
<Dragonfly6-7> that's good
<Jaakobou> not complain about others
<Dragonfly6-7> Incidentally, how would you feel about my making a log of this conversation available to other people?
<Jaakobou> yeah... ok
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay.
<Dragonfly6-7> If everyone else interprets your comments a) the same way and b) not the way you meant them to be interpreted
<Jaakobou> anyways... I'd love to discuss the content with you
<Jaakobou> to ignore the old arguments
<Jaakobou> and focus on the future
<Dragonfly6-7> Right
<Dragonfly6-7> to resume
<Dragonfly6-7> If everyone else interprets your comments a) the same way and b) not the way you meant them to be interpreted
<Dragonfly6-7> is it reasonable to conclude that you have made an error in phrasing?
<Jaakobou> everyone=3
<Jaakobou> a clique of 3
<Dragonfly6-7> Thank you.
<Dragonfly6-7> How much do you know about the connotations of the word "cabal"
<Dragonfly6-7> in relation to online communities
<Dragonfly6-7> and particularly in relation to Wikipedia?
<Jaakobou> means that SlimVirign has a few like-minded friends
<Dragonfly6-7> No.
<Jaakobou> which is a known fact
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Jaakobou> k
<Dragonfly6-7> the word "cabal" is used a lot to describe "people on Wikipedia working together in a way which I personally don't like"
<Dragonfly6-7> it has intense connotations of "conspiracy" and "strongly inappropriate behavior" and "should be punished"
<Dragonfly6-7> "the people who REALLY have the power"
<Dragonfly6-7> "the ones who manipulate everyone else"
<Dragonfly6-7> do you understand?
<Jaakobou> well... JzG and Tiamut make that impression
<Jaakobou> I don't know about real power
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm telling you what the word connotes
<Jaakobou> but they make an impression of working together in an inappropriate manner
<Dragonfly6-7> the emotional meanings that people attach to the word
<Dragonfly6-7> interesting
<Jaakobou> yes
<Dragonfly6-7> you have to be very careful about your connotations
<Dragonfly6-7> about what your words connote
<Dragonfly6-7> since this is your second language, it's understandable that you're more susceptible to making mistakes in that way
<Dragonfly6-7> Now.
<Dragonfly6-7> To return to what I was talking about earlier.
<Dragonfly6-7> <Dragonfly6-7> okay. Let's start by posting to the talk page of the article, okay?
<Jaakobou> yes
<Jaakobou> I'd like to start by focusing on content rather than apologizing
<Dragonfly6-7> No.
<Jaakobou> I can apologize for any possible misunderstanding
<Dragonfly6-7> It's important that you address the disagreements first
<Jaakobou> fine
<Dragonfly6-7> Your post will address the apologies and the content.
<Dragonfly6-7> You're going to state that, for the record, you do not believe that the child did not die.
<Jaakobou> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=329878314
<Jaakobou> she's not interested in my apology
<Dragonfly6-7> don't attribute motives.
<Jaakobou> check that diff
<Jaakobou> it's a response to your request that we close the thread
<Dragonfly6-7> that was from earlier
<Jaakobou> *Support. I also support Chris's proposal of a three-month topic ban.
<Dragonfly6-7> I know.
<Dragonfly6-7> now, stop
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop looking at her contribs
<Dragonfly6-7> stop looking at A/N
<Dragonfly6-7> and stop interrupting me.
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you understand?
<Dragonfly6-7> I realize that my own behavior may seem harsh
<Dragonfly6-7> and for that I apologize
<Dragonfly6-7> but it is difficult to help you when you don't LET me help you
<Dragonfly6-7> okay?
<Jaakobou> I'll follow what you want me to do
<Dragonfly6-7> On the article talk page
<Dragonfly6-7> you're going to make a post addressing the following points
<Dragonfly6-7> that you do NOT actually believe that the child did not die
<Jaakobou> I have no opinion on his dying or living circumstances
<Dragonfly6-7> stop
<Dragonfly6-7> interrupting
<Dragonfly6-7> me
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay?
<Jaakobou> you want me to make a belief assertion that is incorrect
<Dragonfly6-7> Ah
<Dragonfly6-7> That's an interesting point
<Jaakobou> I have no poinion if he's alive or dead
<Jaakobou> we don't know
<Jaakobou> that's what the recent sources have been saying
<Dragonfly6-7> I concede the point
<Dragonfly6-7> Part of the dispute is that many sources say the child died, and there are also other sources that say the child did not die.
<Dragonfly6-7> Is that correct?
<Dragonfly6-7> yes, no
<Jaakobou> yes
<Dragonfly6-7> Thank you
<Jaakobou> ond ones said "dead"
<Jaakobou> new ones say "we don't know
<Dragonfly6-7> ah
<Dragonfly6-7> these new sources
<Dragonfly6-7> have they *replaced* the old sources?
<Dragonfly6-7> yes, no
<Jaakobou> in my opinion yes
<Dragonfly6-7> Ahh
<Dragonfly6-7> see, that's a problem
<Dragonfly6-7> let's take an israeli newspaper
<Dragonfly6-7> hm
<Jaakobou> in 2000 there were no investigations and he was declared dead. in 2008, a court in paris recieved the full tapes and concluded that they don't prove that the boy is dead and that the cameraman is a problematic witness
<Dragonfly6-7> Ma'ariv?
<Jaakobou> it's not Israeli-centric
<Jaakobou> there's sources like The Atlantic
<Dragonfly6-7> a) I'm using it just as an example
<Jaakobou> James Fallows
<Jaakobou> go on
<Dragonfly6-7> b) is it a newspaper in israel? Yes, no
<Jaakobou> Maariv is
<Dragonfly6-7> Thank you
<Dragonfly6-7> let's say that in 2000, Maariv said that the little boy was killed
<Dragonfly6-7> and then in 2008, Maariv said "Our earlier story was wrong; the little boy was actually transformed into a pillar of salt"
<Dragonfly6-7> THIS would be "replacing the earlier sources"
<Jaakobou> yes
<Dragonfly6-7> however, the earlier sources still exist
<Jaakobou> exactly
<Dragonfly6-7> you cannot say that the newer sources replace the older sources
<Dragonfly6-7> do you understand?
<Jaakobou> the recent publications say "what you've heard might not be true... investigations state that...."
<Jaakobou> oh.. I understand
<Jaakobou> the old sources are still intact
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes.
<Dragonfly6-7> You have to be VERY careful about connotation
<Jaakobou> I'll try to be as accurate as possible
<Dragonfly6-7> (what you say) may not be interpreted (how you want it to be interpreted)
<Jaakobou> I'm a tad distracted though, since 3 editors nominated be for a ban
<Dragonfly6-7> Are you still reading A/N ?
<Dragonfly6-7> Also, let me clarify
<Dragonfly6-7> they've nominated a TOPIC ban
<Dragonfly6-7> not a general ban
<Dragonfly6-7> you understand the difference?
<Jaakobou> yes. I know the difference between a ban and a block
<Jaakobou> neither would be welcome
<Jaakobou> and the option has 3 support votes
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm not sure if you've actually understood.
<Jaakobou> well its a distracting issue
<Dragonfly6-7> a ban is not a block, and neither one is a topic ban
<Jaakobou> you could say there that you object any sanction against me
<Jaakobou> that would be helpful
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you understand what I am saying about topic bans?
<Jaakobou> yes I do
<Jaakobou> do you understand why I am concerned ?
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes
<Dragonfly6-7> "For the record, I feel that it would be premature to impose *such involuntary sanctions on Jaakobou at this time."
<Dragonfly6-7> got it?
Dragonfly6-7 waits.
<Jaakobou> that would be good
<Jaakobou> would be better if you say that nothing on the thread substantiates that I pose any problem
<Dragonfly6-7> I've already posted that.
<Dragonfly6-7> important question:
<Dragonfly6-7> Am I advising you, or are you advising me?
<Jaakobou> :)
<Dragonfly6-7> You may correct me if I am factually inaccurate.
<Dragonfly6-7> However.
<Dragonfly6-7> I would like you to understand that -- in this particular situation -- my opinions outweigh yours.
<Jaakobou> sure sure
<Jaakobou> I'm trying to follow your advice
<Dragonfly6-7> Now
<Dragonfly6-7> the article talk page
<Dragonfly6-7> points you need to address
<Jaakobou> still a little concerned but ready to move on to the suggested apology about the death issue
<Dragonfly6-7> the question of whether you personally believe the child is still alive.
<Dragonfly6-7> Answer:
<Dragonfly6-7> "I think that the evidence is insufficient. I am not saying he is still alive."
<Dragonfly6-7> or something like that
<Dragonfly6-7> By the way
<Dragonfly6-7> How would you feel about a one-month voluntary topic ban?
<Dragonfly6-7> For one month, you voluntarily agree to not edit that article. You may propose changes on the talk page.
<Dragonfly6-7> But you don't edit that article.
<Dragonfly6-7> Note that I'm not saying "user:Jaakobou" doesn't edit that article
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm saying YOU
<Dragonfly6-7> logged in, not logged in, using another account, getting a friend to do it for you
<Dragonfly6-7> none of those
<Dragonfly6-7> This will help to show that you mean well.
<Jaakobou> I'd be unhappy to make a declaration that I'm leaving them the article because it could be used against me in the future as they've already portrayed me unjustly in a bad light with very little to go on
<Dragonfly6-7> I realize that it is uncomfortable
<Jaakobou> I can agree to not edit the article directly... but not to making a declaration to the matter
<Jaakobou> "I think that the evidence is insufficient. I am not saying he is still alive." <- this is correct
<Dragonfly6-7> do you have any additional accounts?
<Dragonfly6-7> yes, no
<Jaakobou> no
<Dragonfly6-7> Good
<Dragonfly6-7> "DragonflySixtyseven has suggested that I need to make a gesture of good faith. As per his suggestion, I will voluntarily refrain from editing this article for one month. I will not edit the article from my Wikipedia account, or while logged out; I will not create new accounts to get around this; I will not ask people I know - either in real life or online - to make the edits for me."
<Dragonfly6-7> "I will, however, post my suggested changes on the article talkpage."
<Dragonfly6-7> Now, tell me this:
<Dragonfly6-7> do you have a problem with anything in that suggestion?
<Jaakobou> you missed my above comment
<Dragonfly6-7> no, I saw it
<Jaakobou> I don't like that suggestion
<Dragonfly6-7> I know you don't like it.
<Dragonfly6-7> But I think it's important.
<Dragonfly6-7> If you just don't edit the article
<Dragonfly6-7> well
<Dragonfly6-7> maybe you're bored
<Jaakobou> its giving them a weapon against me
<Jaakobou> for the future
<Dragonfly6-7> How is it a weapon?
<Dragonfly6-7> Furthermore
<Dragonfly6-7> it shows that you're being polite
<Dragonfly6-7> it shows that you're being well-behaved
<Jaakobou> "as soon as he returned... he started pushing his old POV... blah blah"
<Dragonfly6-7> Hey.
<Dragonfly6-7> Tell me this.
<Dragonfly6-7> As soon as you return
<Dragonfly6-7> WILL you start pushing your old POV?
<Jaakobou> I'm not pushing any POV even as we speak
Dragonfly6-7 sighs
<Jaakobou> hasn't stopped them from making that assertion
<Jaakobou> in the current discussion
<Dragonfly6-7> calm down.
<Jaakobou> I'm calm
<Dragonfly6-7> One thing to bear in mind
<Dragonfly6-7> refraining for one month
<Dragonfly6-7> and saying so
<Dragonfly6-7> it will definitely put a stop to the suggestions that you be topic-banned for three months
<Dragonfly6-7> At least for a month.
<Jaakobou> those suggestions will return as soon as I try to make an edit
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.
<Dragonfly6-7> During this month
<Dragonfly6-7> I would like you to make suggestions on the article talk page
<Dragonfly6-7> and
<Dragonfly6-7> I would like you to attempt variations on the article
<Dragonfly6-7> in your userspace
<Dragonfly6-7> I would like you to consult with the other users
<Jaakobou> dragonfly
<Dragonfly6-7> Jaakobou.
<Jaakobou> i'm starting to get a little peeved
<Jaakobou> a couple editors on the page were being rude
<Dragonfly6-7> If everyone's against you, consider that you might be the one who's wrong.
<Dragonfly6-7> Maybe they were
<Dragonfly6-7> you're better than them.
<Dragonfly6-7> Ignore them.
<Jaakobou> and now a Palestinian editor and those two are suggesting a topic ban
<Jaakobou> and you're suggesting I take a break from the page would do me good
<Dragonfly6-7> No.
<Dragonfly6-7> That's not what I'm suggesting; don't attribute motives.
<Jaakobou> i'm not
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm suggesting a break from the page would look good

<Dragonfly6-7> it would show that you are willing to cooperate

<Dragonfly6-7> I'm suggesting it would be good for your IMAGE
<Dragonfly6-7> for your REPUTATION
<Jaakobou> useing sources shows I've been cooperating
<Dragonfly6-7> do you understand the difference?
<Dragonfly6-7> "<Jaakobou> useing sources shows I've been cooperating" - no, it doesn't.
<Jaakobou> saying I won't edit the page doesn't show cooperation, it shows I admit to being disruptive
<Jaakobou> I made a single edit and then talked about it with the others
<Dragonfly6-7> Jaakobou, whether or not you intended it - and I'm willing to accept that you did not intend this -
<Jaakobou> where exactly does that mean I shouldn't edit the page for a month
<Dragonfly6-7> your actions caused disruption.
<Jaakobou> no no no
<Dragonfly6-7> Even though you didn't mean it.
<Jaakobou> SlimVirign caused disruption
<Dragonfly6-7> Jaakobou, I'm sorry.
<Jaakobou> and I sadly asked for help at the wrong forum
<Jaakobou> gah
<Jaakobou> i'm peeved
<Dragonfly6-7> Calm down.
<Jaakobou> fine
<Dragonfly6-7> I know you're peeved.
<Dragonfly6-7> I apologize for having upset you.
<Dragonfly6-7> Does that help?
<Jaakobou> I don't see value in suggesting that I will raise my concerns on the talk page first
<Jaakobou> if merely doing that caused for incivility
<Dragonfly6-7> Listen.
<Jaakobou> I did not impose anything on the talk page
<Dragonfly6-7> let me tell you something
<Dragonfly6-7> this will take a few lines, so don't interrpt
<Dragonfly6-7> IF you take the voluntary topic exile
<Dragonfly6-7> and announce it
<Dragonfly6-7> and
<Dragonfly6-7> IF you make suggestions on the talk page
<Dragonfly6-7> and
<Dragonfly6-7> IF those suggestions are disregarded or insulted or otherwise not treated properly
<Dragonfly6-7> then you come to me and ask for help.
<Dragonfly6-7> Directly.
<Jaakobou> yeah ok
<Jaakobou> I guess
<Dragonfly6-7> I may not be able to help you IMMEDIATELY
<Dragonfly6-7> because I have my OWN damn life to take care of
<Dragonfly6-7> but I will do it.
<Jaakobou> would it work if I didn't announce that I will avoid editing the article space but I still avoid editing the article space ?
<Dragonfly6-7> No.
<Dragonfly6-7> You have to say that you're doing it
<Dragonfly6-7> AND
<Dragonfly6-7> you have to say WHY you're doing it
<Dragonfly6-7> that you're doing it as good faith
<Dragonfly6-7> that you're doing it because you've been advised to do it
<Dragonfly6-7> you have to announce that you're not going to cheat
<Jaakobou> good faith seems short these days when it comes to other editors treatment of my concerns
<Dragonfly6-7> and you have to mention all the ways that you COULD cheat
<Dragonfly6-7> Jaakobou, I'm very sorry to say this, but it seems that you've used up some of your good faith.
<Dragonfly6-7> "AGF is not a suicide pact."
<Jaakobou> I haven't
<Jaakobou> SlimVirign and ChrisO and Tiamut are no examples on this issue
<Dragonfly6-7> unfortunately, any incidences of such people
<Dragonfly6-7> count as examples
<Dragonfly6-7> let me think of some ridiculous scenario
<Jaakobou> those editors as well have agreed with me on many instances
<Dragonfly6-7> SV, CO, and T have agreed with you many times before?
<Jaakobou> samples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jaakobou#Quasi-Barnstar_Memorabilia:
<Jaakobou> chrisO agreed with me on one of the few changes I was making in the very moment that SlimVirign was being rude
<Dragonfly6-7> interesting
<Dragonfly6-7> but listen
<Dragonfly6-7> if some people no longer have good faith in you
<Dragonfly6-7> then you have used up some of your good faith
<Dragonfly6-7> by definition
<Dragonfly6-7> do you understand?
<Jaakobou> that would require for them to have had good faith to begin with
<Dragonfly6-7> it's an interesting term, it is
<Jaakobou> its interesting how we discuss good faith here
<Dragonfly6-7> yep
<Dragonfly6-7> listen.
<Jaakobou> and how I kept asking SlimVirign to give me a bit of good faith
<Dragonfly6-7> "AGF is not a suicide pact."
<Dragonfly6-7> you have to PROVIDE good faith
<Jaakobou> that really depends if the other side is interested in looking at the content
<Dragonfly6-7> Don't attribute motives.
<Jaakobou> ChrisO obvisouly did look when he agreed with part of my edit
<Jaakobou> SlimVirign ignored it and made a bad faith suggestion
<Dragonfly6-7> Stop.

<Dragonfly6-7> Do you realize

<Dragonfly6-7> I've barely looked at this article?
<Jaakobou> I figured as much
<Jaakobou> ok
<Jaakobou> let's do this
<Dragonfly6-7> To begin, you'll take the hit
<Dragonfly6-7> post in the article's talk page about the voluntary one-month topic exile.
<Dragonfly6-7> Use the exact wording that I suggested
<Jaakobou> "DragonflySixtyseven has suggested that I need to make a gesture of good faith. As per his suggestion, I will voluntarily refrain from editing this article for one month. I will not edit the article from my Wikipedia account, or while logged out; I will (obviously) not create new accounts to get around this; I will not ask people I know - either in real life or online - to make the edits for me. -
<Dragonfly6-7> good....
<Dragonfly6-7> and then "I will, however, post suggestions on the talkpage, and work on a copy of the article in my userspace."
<Jaakobou> I hope we can still review my suggestions here and come to a consensus about them"
<Dragonfly6-7> yes
<Jaakobou> can I mention the issue of incivility ?
<Dragonfly6-7> No.
<Dragonfly6-7> Again, you have to take the hit.
<Jaakobou> that makes me uncomfortable
<Jaakobou> its like an admission of guilt
<Jaakobou> and could be used against me
<Dragonfly6-7> You can say "I regret that there has been incivility."
<Jaakobou> I wan't incivil
<Jaakobou> so its not great
<Dragonfly6-7> It's been just over three months since my girlfriend died.
<Dragonfly6-7> in two weeks, it'll be the seventh anniversary of the day we met
<Jaakobou> I think you mentioned this to me a little while ago
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes.
<Dragonfly6-7> She was in quite a lot of discomfort
<Dragonfly6-7> in fact, I don't think it would be exaggerating to say that she *was in agony
<Dragonfly6-7> one thing that I didn't find out until after she died, in fact
<Dragonfly6-7> was that she had been terribly worried about ME
<Dragonfly6-7> about what would happen to me when she was gone
<Dragonfly6-7> if I would be all right
<Dragonfly6-7> she was so scared about whether I could continue without her
<Dragonfly6-7> consider her discomfort
<Dragonfly6-7> compared to YOUR discomfort
<Dragonfly6-7> You may say "I regret that there has been incivility. I apologize to anyone who perceived my actions as incivil; I did not mean them to be."
<Dragonfly6-7> this way you both apologize but also clear your name
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you understand?
<Jaakobou> I'll change it a bit and post something
<Jaakobou> on the article or the AN ?
<Dragonfly6-7> in the article
<Dragonfly6-7> well, the article talk
<Dragonfly6-7> and show me before you post
<Jaakobou> sec
<Jaakobou> DragonflySixtyseven has suggested that I need to make a gesture of good faith. As per his suggestion, I will voluntarily refrain from editing this article for one month. I will not edit the article from my Wikipedia account, or while logged out; I will (obviously) not create new accounts to get around this; I will not ask people I know - either in real life or online - to make the edits for me. I
<Jaakobou> I hope we can still review my suggestions here and come to a consensus about them. I like to add that I regret any incivilities that has occurred and apologize to anyone who may have perceived my actions or comments as incivil and felt obliged to respond. I certainly did not mean any of my comments to be incivil and would be happy to apologize and explain them if anyone is interested in doing that
<Jaakobou> in order to get back to a more collaborative spirit of things. Warm regards, DS (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
<Dragonfly6-7> Almost
<Dragonfly6-7> "I like to add" ==> "I'd like to add"
<Dragonfly6-7> it's a question of English grammar
<Jaakobou> yeah... was a slip of the keyboard
<Dragonfly6-7> and once you've posted that on the article talk page
<Dragonfly6-7> post in the A/N asking that they look at your post on the article talk page
<Jaakobou> what do you think would happen after I do that ?
<Dragonfly6-7> I think they'd be surprised.
<Dragonfly6-7> I think there would be some criticism of you
<Dragonfly6-7> and
<Dragonfly6-7> some people would get suspicious of whether you'd try to cheat
<Dragonfly6-7> and you just...
<Dragonfly6-7> don't.
<Dragonfly6-7> You show that you're not a disruptive influence
<Dragonfly6-7> you can't have an argument with only one side
<Dragonfly6-7> you can take this time to edit other articles instead.
<Dragonfly6-7> do you like sport?
<Jaakobou> heh
<Dragonfly6-7> are you familiar with the band Boom Pam ?
<Jaakobou> had a really nagging injury to my left wrist
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm sorry to hear that
<Dragonfly6-7> Boom Pam are an Israeli band whom I discovered when they played at the Montreal Jazz Fest in 2008
<Dragonfly6-7> I think they should have an article
<Dragonfly6-7> would you like to write that article?>
<Jaakobou> probably not
<Dragonfly6-7> okay
<Jaakobou> there's other notable israelis that should be written about first
<Jaakobou> i have a mini list of things I'm working on
<Dragonfly6-7> sure
<Jaakobou> but I haven't had time for it
<Dragonfly6-7> ahh
<Dragonfly6-7> see
<Dragonfly6-7> now's the time
<Dragonfly6-7> have you posted to the article talkpage and A/N ?
<Jaakobou> posting now
<Dragonfly6-7> good
<Jaakobou> suggestions on how to phrase it on AN would be welcome
<Dragonfly6-7> "I withdraw from this discussion; for more details, please read my post on talk:whatever. I apologize for the inconvenience."
<Dragonfly6-7> Got it?
<Jaakobou> * There's been all types of reports on Al-Durrah (Talk:Muhammad al-Durrah/sources) and I am not supporting any of one perspecive represented by these sources. In any event, I withdraw from this discussion; for more details, please read my post on Talk:Muhammad al-Durrah incident#Suggested vs stated. I apologize for the inconvenience.
<Jaakobou> ?
<Dragonfly6-7> well
<Dragonfly6-7> have you posted this yet?
<Jaakobou> not yet
<Dragonfly6-7> Good
<Dragonfly6-7> because you are posting this to A/N, I suggest that you do NOT talk about the Al-Durrah incident there
<Dragonfly6-7> this is a page for discussing *user behavior*
<Dragonfly6-7> do yo uunderstand?
<Jaakobou> * There's been all types of behaviors on Al-Durrah and I am sorry for bringing it up here. In any event, I withdraw from this discussion; for more details, please read my post on Talk:Muhammad al-Durrah incident#Suggested vs stated. I apologize for the inconvenience.
<Dragonfly6-7> Almost
<Dragonfly6-7> There's been all types of reports on the Al-Durrah incident, and I am sorry for bringing it up here. In any event, I withdraw from this discussion; for more details, please read my post on Talk:Muhammad al-Durrah incident#Suggested vs stated. I apologize for the inconvenience.
<Jaakobou> * There's been all types of reports on the Al-Durrah incident, and I am sorry for having induced the content being brought up here. In any event, I withdraw from this discussion; for more details, please read my post on Talk:Muhammad al-Durrah incident#Suggested vs stated. I apologize for the inconvenience.
<Dragonfly6-7> There's been all types of reports on the Al-Durrah incident, and I am sorry for bringing it up here. In any event, I withdraw from this discussion; for more details, please read my post on Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah incident#Suggested vs stated. I apologize for the inconvenience.
<Jaakobou> it's like I am still advocating what SlimVirign is claiming I am advocating
<Jaakobou> an admission by lack of response
<Dragonfly6-7> Doesn't matter.
<Jaakobou> fine
<Dragonfly6-7> In the sum of things, this is minor.
<Jaakobou> posted
<Dragonfly6-7> All these disputes are so petty and childish.
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you have a girlfriend?
<Dragonfly6-7> or a wife
<Dragonfly6-7> or a boyfriend?
<Dragonfly6-7> Are you in a relationship?
<Jaakobou> I do
<Jaakobou> :)
<Dragonfly6-7> Good.
<Dragonfly6-7> how long have you been together?
<Jaakobou> i'm sorry... i'm not in the right mood to talk about such things
<Dragonfly6-7> That's okay.
<Dragonfly6-7> My point is
<Dragonfly6-7> you have spent a long time on this bitter dispute
<Jaakobou> i just sold myself for a promise that things will be ok
<Dragonfly6-7> You didn't sell yourself.
<Jaakobou> there's many small stuff
<Jaakobou> and suddenly
<Dragonfly6-7> Go tell your important person how important she is to you
<Jaakobou> I'm portrayed as a shitty POV pusher
<Jaakobou> and I just went and said "ok... i'll stop editing"
<Dragonfly6-7> there were arguments stating that you were VERY OBSESSED with editing
<Jaakobou> i'm in a cruddy mood... but i've already done that a couple times today
<Dragonfly6-7> so to prove that you are not obsessed with the subject
<Dragonfly6-7> you simply STOP
<Dragonfly6-7> "I'm not addicted! I can quit any time I want!"
<Dragonfly6-7> "then prove it."
<Dragonfly6-7> "Okay."
<Jaakobou> okay
<Dragonfly6-7> you see what I mean?
<Dragonfly6-7> By proving that you are able to stop editing the article
<Jaakobou> yes... your suggestion makes a little more sense
<Jaakobou> though I don't see how it's going to change their arguments in the futuer
<Dragonfly6-7> I would also like you to understand
<Jaakobou> future
<Jaakobou> besides them saying I took a break in order to evade a ban
<Dragonfly6-7> their goal is ALSO the best interests of the project
<Jaakobou> heck... maybe they can still get that ban they were going for
<Dragonfly6-7> and the optimal presentation of articles
<Dragonfly6-7> calm down
<Jaakobou> i'm unhappy that they've managed to turn their behavior into a victory
<Dragonfly6-7> Sh
<Jaakobou> there's nothing I can do about that
<Dragonfly6-7> they did no such thing.
<Dragonfly6-7> Don't think of it in terms of 'victory' or 'defeat'
<Dragonfly6-7> if you think of it that way, you have defeated yourself
<Jaakobou> I didn't try to promote anything problematic.. but somehow, a few editors have painted me with a nasty "the fringe of POVs" brush
<Jaakobou> i'm not looking for a victory
<Dragonfly6-7> You were talking about victory just a minute ago
<Jaakobou> i want wat's best for the project
<Dragonfly6-7> Good
<Jaakobou> and these editors dont
<Dragonfly6-7> Yes, they do.
<Jaakobou> no
<Dragonfly6-7> Don't attribute motives.
<Dragonfly6-7> What we know is that they disagree with you
<Jaakobou> Good faith is not a suicide packt
<Dragonfly6-7> That's right
<Dragonfly6-7> but don't parrot me.
<Jaakobou> ChrisO has disregarded sources a number of times to try and assert his perspective that Israel shot the boy
<Jaakobou> and SlimVirign has aided him
<Dragonfly6-7> Let me make something clear to you
<Jaakobou> nevermind
<Dragonfly6-7> I don't care about this article.
<Jaakobou> I need to calm down
<Jaakobou> and do other stuff
<Jaakobou> would work better
<Dragonfly6-7> That's right.
<Jaakobou> please, don't let them get some bogus consensus to sanction me
<Dragonfly6-7> You'll feel better once you've edited other articles.
<Jaakobou> fair enough ?
<Dragonfly6-7> Sure.
<Dragonfly6-7> And I'm going to provide SV with the log of this conversation
<Jaakobou> have a groovy day
<Dragonfly6-7> in her userspace
<Dragonfly6-7> Remember
<Dragonfly6-7> don't think of it as defeat
<Dragonfly6-7> or as victory
<Dragonfly6-7> this is not a zero-sum game
<Dragonfly6-7> okay?
<Jaakobou> she'll be happy to read through this
<Jaakobou> i don't like your suggestion
<Jaakobou> I alrady pleaded her for some collaboration on emails and she ignored my plea
<Jaakobou> don't share this log with her or any of the involved parties
<Dragonfly6-7> Hey.
<Jaakobou> i'm out
<Dragonfly6-7> HEY
<Dragonfly6-7> you said I could make the log public
<Dragonfly6-7> and I've already offered.
<Dragonfly6-7> This shows your good faith
<Dragonfly6-7> and it shows the origin of the misunderstandings.
<Jaakobou> i disagree
<Jaakobou> it shows something else
<Dragonfly6-7> What does it show?
<Jaakobou> that poor conduct gets result if you have a possie
<Dragonfly6-7> "posse"
<Dragonfly6-7> no, it doesn't
<Dragonfly6-7> Don't think in terms of 'posse'
<Dragonfly6-7> these are people.
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay?
<Jaakobou> that's your opinion as the person suggesting I remove myself from the article after I was just insulted
<Dragonfly6-7> Insults don't matter.
<Dragonfly6-7> You're a grown man.
<Jaakobou> for daring to suggest we change 'investigations suggested that...' to "investigations stated that..."
<Jaakobou> they're not offensive other than they are disruptive
<Dragonfly6-7> again, you have to be careful about connotations
<Dragonfly6-7> do you understand the precise difference between 'suggest' and 'state' ?
<Jaakobou> yes.
<Dragonfly6-7> would it be reasonable to say
<Jaakobou> the citation I used on the talkpage clarifies the latter is the right one to use
<Dragonfly6-7> that SOME investigations suggested (x)
<Jaakobou> no
<Dragonfly6-7> but OTHER investigations STATED (x) completely
<Jaakobou> all of them stated that IDF could not have shot him
<Jaakobou> the citations say "demostrated"
<Dragonfly6-7> then quote that word for word
<Jaakobou> I was saying that on the talkpage
<Jaakobou> and recieved an attack by Slim
<Jaakobou> yeah... I suggested it
<Dragonfly6-7> don't think of it as an attack
<Dragonfly6-7> you suggested it? Or you stated it?
<Jaakobou> and recieved a personal assault
<Dragonfly6-7> *ahem*
<Dragonfly6-7> (not funny)
<Dragonfly6-7> Do you want me to tell you what a personal assault is?
<Dragonfly6-7> do you want me to tell you about what my girlfriend's father did to her mother?
<Dragonfly6-7> do you want me to tell you about real attacks and real assaults?
<Jaakobou> '"The IDF, which initially apologized for the death of al-Dura, concluded after an investigation that the boy could not have been hit by Israeli bullets."'
<Jaakobou> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah_incident&diff=prev&oldid=329535247
<Dragonfly6-7> This is a tendentious issue.
<Jaakobou> the next comment was the one by Slim that started this mess
<Jaakobou> the one after that actually
<Jaakobou> anyways... i'm done
<Dragonfly6-7> Are you going to edit other articles instead?
<Jaakobou> I don't like for you to share our conversation with the involved parties
<Jaakobou> since my good faith is at a low
<Dragonfly6-7> you already consented, and I already offered.
<Jaakobou> i'll edit what I feel like editing apart from the al-durrah, where I'll make a suggestion here and there
<Dragonfly6-7> GOOD
<Dragonfly6-7> You have said nothing in this conversation that is indicative of bad action
<Jaakobou> thanks for the help
<Dragonfly6-7> possibly some that is indicative of not considering connotations properly
<Dragonfly6-7> and of not thinking of consequences
<Dragonfly6-7> but no bad actions.
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay?
<Jaakobou> I'm not following you
<Jaakobou> what do you want ?
<Dragonfly6-7> I want you to understand that there is nothing in this conversation which - in its proper context - could be used against you.
<Dragonfly6-7> It would certainly be possible to take things out of context, but that can be done with anything.
<Jaakobou> this comment.. btw... is bullshit
<Jaakobou> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=329893740
<Jaakobou> I am against opening this conversation to any of the involved parties
<Jaakobou> I'm sorry that this wasn't clear from the opening
<Dragonfly6-7> Sorry. I've already offered it.
<Dragonfly6-7> I asked permission to share it
<Dragonfly6-7> you gave permission
<Jaakobou> your phrasing was generic and I assuemed it meant to outsiders
<Jaakobou> I hope you will accept my request to change my eariler note to the new one
<Dragonfly6-7> outsiders implies ANYONE
<Dragonfly6-7> I regret that I did not make this clear from the outset
<Dragonfly6-7> howevef
<Dragonfly6-7> however
<Jaakobou> outsiders to the conflict. I understand how there was a misunderstanding and hope you'll accept my rephrase
<Dragonfly6-7> I have already offered the chat log
<Dragonfly6-7> to retract that offer would be seen as you trying to conceal something.
<Jaakobou> I don't want this open to SlimVirign, ChrisO or Tiamut or that group of editors that have been trying to have me sanctioned for a while
<Dragonfly6-7> What is very important here
<Dragonfly6-7> is that you make it clear that you HAVE NOTHING TO CONCEAL
<Jaakobou> where have you offered it ?
<Dragonfly6-7> on the article talk page.
<Dragonfly6-7> The point is.
<Jaakobou> fine
<Jaakobou> if possible avoid it
<Dragonfly6-7> If she doesn't ask to see it, I won't post it. But I've made the offer, and I'll follow up on anyone who asks.
<Jaakobou> ok
<Jaakobou> I hope anyone reading it enjoys it
<Dragonfly6-7> Mm
<Dragonfly6-7> Remember
<Dragonfly6-7> there is no 'victory' or 'defeat' here
<Dragonfly6-7> you have to think of it properly
<Jaakobou> I figure a few of them will
<Dragonfly6-7> That's their problem
<Jaakobou> you're really not understanding the problem here if you think I'm taking it in terms of victory or deafeat
<Dragonfly6-7> this is not your victory or your defeat.
<Dragonfly6-7> You were talking about it that way earlier.
<Jaakobou> its not that way for me
<Dragonfly6-7> the defeat is entropy.
<Jaakobou> I wanted SlimVirign to be a little more collaborative and instead a small clique I've encountered appear to smear me
<Jaakobou> what we did is reaffirming that style of participation on the project
<Dragonfly6-7> can we agree that it is a tragedy whenever a small child dies?
<Jaakobou> to share this discussion seems to reaffirm their childish behavior
<Jaakobou> I don't see it as a defeat
<Dragonfly6-7> can we agree that it is a tragedy whenever a small child dies, Jaakobou ?
<Jaakobou> just as something that is not good for the project
<Dragonfly6-7> STOP
<Dragonfly6-7> I asked you a yes-or-no question
<Jaakobou> can we agree that you're asking irrelevant questions ?
<Dragonfly6-7> ha
<Dragonfly6-7> by sharing this log
<Jaakobou> I'd rather you not share this discussion with people involved in the conflit
<Dragonfly6-7> we show that you are a reasonable human being who is capable of cooperation and working well with others
<Jaakobou> my good faith here is at a low and i suspect ehy will relish reading through it
<Dragonfly6-7> Let them.
<Dragonfly6-7> We're all on the same side.
<Jaakobou> i think I was cooperating well with them already
<Dragonfly6-7> They disagreed
<Dragonfly6-7> this will show that you are capable of cooperating with, for instance, ME
<Jaakobou> SlimVirign's response has no diff to explain what supposedly elicited it
<Dragonfly6-7> be that as it may
<Jaakobou> I already have a bunch of diffs showing I cooperate with just about everyone on wikipedia
<Dragonfly6-7> so?
<Jaakobou> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jaakobou#Quasi-Barnstar_Memorabilia:
<Jaakobou> to reaffirm it through you is redundant
<Dragonfly6-7> I know. You showed me those before.
<Jaakobou> IMHO
<Dragonfly6-7> Remember what I said before
<Dragonfly6-7> In this situation, my opinion outweighs yours.
<Dragonfly6-7> I am of the opinion that it will be helpful to show this log.
<Jaakobou> fine
<Jaakobou> do what you think is best
<Dragonfly6-7> Good.
<Dragonfly6-7> go edit some other articles. It'll help you feel better.
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay?
<Jaakobou> bye
<Dragonfly6-7> Good luck.
<Dragonfly6-7> okay?
<Jaakobou> you honestly don't see that SlimVirign is interested in my block?
<Jaakobou> if she had something to make it happen (other than her *provocations) she would post something to this effect long time ago
<Dragonfly6-7> I don't think SV wants to block you for the sake of blocking you.
<Dragonfly6-7> Go eat some chocolate
<Dragonfly6-7> take a nap
<Dragonfly6-7> play some Tetris
<Jaakobou> maybe you should talk with her and post it for everyone to see as well ?
<Jaakobou> that would make things even here
<Dragonfly6-7> you came to me for help
<Dragonfly6-7> you're going to stick with this
<Dragonfly6-7> I think that SV wants what's in the project's best interests
<Dragonfly6-7> and I think there have been several unfortunate misunderstandings
<Jaakobou> sources don't seem to play a part here
<Dragonfly6-7> calm down
<Dragonfly6-7> let go
<Dragonfly6-7> this is one article among three million
<Jaakobou> you're not getting it
<Dragonfly6-7> it's about you? Is that it?
<Jaakobou> try talking to her to get it
<Jaakobou> I have
<Dragonfly6-7> I've spoken with Slim before
<Jaakobou> and I got it
<Jaakobou> and
<Jaakobou> ?
<Dragonfly6-7> it's never been much of a problem
<Dragonfly6-7> although we haven't talked much
<Jaakobou> I suggest you ask her about the relevant issue
<Jaakobou> if you want to resolve the bad blood
<Jaakobou> that would be a good move
<Jaakobou> she's been out to get me for a while now and I've tried addressing the problem myself
<Jaakobou> to no avail
<Jaakobou> that's why I opened the thread
<Dragonfly6-7> I don't think she's 'out to get you'
<Jaakobou> I hoped someone could mediate between us
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm doing that
<Dragonfly6-7> so calm down
<Dragonfly6-7> you have to understand
<Jaakobou> I'm cvalm
<Dragonfly6-7> a mediator will not necessarily act entirely in your favor
<Jaakobou> just talk with her
<Jaakobou> get to the bottom of things
<Jaakobou> who said in my favor
<Jaakobou> maybe she's got a point ?
<Jaakobou> act in the favor of the project
<Dragonfly6-7> I don't know anything about this article.
<Dragonfly6-7> I do know about how people behave on Wikipedia.
<Jaakobou> iron out a problem between two established editors with the ability to contribute
<Dragonfly6-7> I get the feeling that you mean well.
<Dragonfly6-7> Okay?
<Jaakobou> my intentions mean nothing if no one will undesttand SlimVirign's core problem and try to iron out our differences
<Dragonfly6-7> We'll get to that next
<Jaakobou> my last edit was certainly not contenteous or unsupported by sources
<Dragonfly6-7> but I can't handle both of you at once
<Jaakobou> so it begs the quetion on how we can make such edits
<Dragonfly6-7> One at a time. Okay?
<Jaakobou> I'm out... you can just talk with her
<Dragonfly6-7> Go do something that will make you feel better.
<Jaakobou> I'd like to read that log
<Dragonfly6-7> sure
<Jaakobou> for good measure
<Jaakobou> she wants to read our log
<Dragonfly6-7> I'm going to post it to your userspace, because it pertains to you.
<Jaakobou> would be reciprocal to read hers
<Dragonfly6-7> oh, sure
<Jaakobou> I think you should release it to her only if she explains herself to you
<Jaakobou> would be helpful
<Jaakobou> if she makes allegations... diffs would be good
<Dragonfly6-7> one of the things I did, the day after my girlfriend died
<Dragonfly6-7> I went to the river
<Dragonfly6-7> and I fed the ducks
<Jaakobou> beacuse I've been making an effort to work well on that page despite many provocations
<Dragonfly6-7> and the seagulls
<Dragonfly6-7> a full bag of bread
<Jaakobou> ok ok
<Dragonfly6-7> I was crying the whole time
<Jaakobou> I don't want to be insensitive but I've wasted enough time on this
<Jaakobou> let me know how the SlimVirign conversation goes
<Dragonfly6-7> I understand
<Jaakobou> byes
<Dragonfly6-7> Will do.

End of Jaakobou buffer Sat Dec 05 12:51:59 2009