User:Ikip/q
Hello editors, I am new to this process so please forgive me. It's with heavy heart that I respond to this Wikiquette alert. It is not my intent to reignite the tempers which flared on several article pages and various talk pages. I respond to this Wikiquette alert because I feel what fueled this fire for so long was a level of personal attacks and edit wars in the form of unsubstantiated accusations which do nothing to serve the goals of the encyclopedia. This Wikiquette alert is necessary to give the involved parties an opportunity to substantiate their claims, and to give the community the opportunity to clarify what level of claims constitute opinion/constitute constructive edits or personal attacks/edit warring. The disruptive behavior on Business Plot is not unique to the page alone, unfortunatly for the project, these two editors have disruptived several pages and been uncivil to several other editors.
I have been editing since 30 September 2005. I started to edit Business Plot on 17 November 2005, when it looked like this, without a single reference, and 6 external liks. Through years of comprimise, hard work, give and take, between numerous editors, we built the page to look like this (as of 17 December 2008), with 56 references, and a large External link and Further reading section. On 17 December 2008, User:Collect began edit warring with some editors over the first sentence of the article. I stayed out of it, until 11:23, 19 February 2009 when User:Collect removed the alternate names with the incorrect statement, "alternate names have only a scattered handful of uses -- many tracing back to THIS page." I reverted,[1] and then collect reverted back, stating with another incorrect statment: ""alternate names" esp "putsch" are POV and RARE on any source not sourcing back to WP <g> WP is not a valid source" I then sourced this disputed section, with 7 sources, many new.[2] In retliation, User:Collect deleted 1,184 well referenced words, 3 pages of text, with no conversation on the talk page before. The reasons given were illogical and showed a general misunderstanding of the historical incident. This began the current edit war.
| Reverted | Original | Reason given |
|---|---|---|
| In 1934, the Business Plot was publicly revealed by retired United States Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler, testifying to the McCormack-Dickstein Congressional Committee. <ref>Schlesinger, p. 85 McCormack was eager to avoid hit-and-run accusation and unsubstantiated testimony.</ref> In his testimony, Butler claimed that a group of men had approached him as part of a plot to overthrow Roosevelt in a military coup. One of the alleged plotters, Gerald MacGuire, vehemently denied any such plot. In their final report, the Congressional committee supported Butler's allegations of the existence of the plot,[1] but no prosecutions or further investigations followed. | In March 1934, the House of Representatives authorized an investigation into "un-American" activities by a special committee headed by John W. McCormack of Massachusetts and Samuel Dickstein of New York. In the following months the McCormack-Dickstein Committee inquired into Nazi operations in America, exposed William Dudley Pelley and the Silver Shirts, looked into Smedley Butler's allegations, and called the Communist leaders up for testimony. Its manner of investigation commanded special respect. McCormack used competent investigators and employed as committee counsel a former Georgia senator with a good record on civil liberties. Most of the examination of witnesses was carried on in executive sessions. In public sessions, witnesses were free to consult counsel. Throughout, McCormack was eager to avoid hit-and-run accusation and unsubstantiated testimony. The result was an almost uniquely scrupulous investigation in a highly sensitive area." In his testimony, Butler claimed that a group of men had approached him as part of a plot to overthrow Roosevelt in a military coup. One of the alleged plotters, Gerald MacGuire, vehemently denied any such plot. In their final report, the Congressional committee supported Butler's allegations of the existence of the plot,<ref>Schlesinger, p. 85 "As for McCormack's House committee, it declared itself "able to verify all the pertinent statements made by General Butler" except for MacGuire's direct proposal to him, and it considered this more or less confirmed by MacGuire's European reports."</ref> but no prosecutions or further investigations followed, and the matter was mostly forgotten. | Reason: "refs are not for interpolating large amounts of text - also totally unrelated issues do not belong in the Butler Plot article"[3] 03:03, 22 February 2009
The reason this text was added was as a comprmise with other editors in the past. |
| Butler, although a self-described Republican, responded by supporting Roosevelt in that year's election.<ref name="support">Schmidt, p. 219 "Declaring himself a "Hoover-for-Ex-President Republican," Smedley used the bonus issue and the army's use of gas in routing the (Bonus Expeditionary Force) "</ref> | Butler, although a self-described Republican, responded by supporting Roosevelt in that year's election.<ref name="support">Schmidt, p. 219 "Declaring himself a "Hoover-for-Ex-President Republican," Smedley used the bonus issue and the army's use of gas in routing the (Bonus Expeditionary Force) B.E.F -recalling infamous gas warfare during the Great War- to disparage Hoover during the 1932 general elections. He came out for the Democrats "despite the fact that my family for generations has been Republican," and shared the platform when Republican Senator George W. Norris opened a coast-to-coast stump for FDR in Philadelphia....Butler was pleased with the election results that saw Hoover defeated; although he admitted that he had exerted himself in the campaign more "to get rid of Hoover than to put in Roosevelt," and to "square a debt." FDR, his old Haiti ally, was a "nice fellow" and might make a good president, but Smedley did not expect much influence in the new administration."</ref> | Reason: "refs are not for interpolating large amounts of text - also totally unrelated issues do not belong in the Butler Plot article"[4]
The reason this text was added was as a comprmise with other editors in the past. |
| Committee submits to Congress its final report.<ref name="plotx">Archer, p. x (Foreword)</ref><ref> National Archives: The Special Committee on Un-American Activities Authorized To Investigate Nazi Propaganda and Certain Other Propaganda Activities (73A-F30.1) </ref> | Committee submits to Congress its final report.<ref name="plotx">Archer, p. x (Foreword)</ref><ref>National Archives: The Special Committee on Un-American Activities Authorized To Investigate Nazi Propaganda and Certain Other Propaganda Activities (73A-F30.1) "The (McCormack-Dickstein Committee) conducted public and executive hearings intermittently between April 26 and December 29, 1934, in Washington, DC; New York; Chicago; Los Angeles; Newark; and Asheville, NC, examining hundreds of witnesses and accumulating more than 4,300 pages of testimony."</ref> | Reason: "refs are not for interpolating large amounts of text - also totally unrelated issues do not belong in the Butler Plot article"[5]
The reason this text was added was as a comprmise with other editors in the past. |
Butler stated that once the conspirators were in power, they would protect Roosevelt from other plotters.<ref>Beam, Alex (May 25 2004). "A Blemish Behind Beauty at The Clark". The Boston Globe: E1. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help): Wikisource: McCormack-Dickstein Committee</ref>
|
Butler stated that once the conspirators were in power, they would protect Roosevelt from other plotters.<ref>Beam, Alex (May 25 2004). "A Blemish Behind Beauty at The Clark". The Boston Globe: E1. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help): "In his congressional testimony, Butler described Clark as being "known as the "millionaire lieutenant" and was sort of batty, sort of queer, did all sorts of extravagant things. He used to go exploring around China and wrote a book on it, on explorations. He was never taken seriously by anybody. But he had a lot of money." "Clark was certainly eccentric. One of the reasons he sited his fantastic art collection away from New York or Boston was that he feared it might be destroyed by a Soviet bomber attack during the Cold War..."(Clark) was pointed out to me during a trip to Paris," says one on his grandnieces. "He was known to be pro-fascist and on the enemy side. Nobody ever spoke to him."" Wikisource: McCormack-Dickstein Committee</ref> |
Reason: "refs are not for interpolating large amounts of text - also totally unrelated issues do not belong in the Butler Plot article"[6] The reason this text was added was to stop edit wars with other POV editors in the past, who understood this incident as little as User:Collect does, and contributed just as little as User:Collect has. |
| Also last week the House Committee on Un-American Activities purported to report that a two-month investigation had convinced it that General Butler's story of a Fascist march on Washington was alarmingly true." New York Times February 16 1935. p. 1, </ref> |
Also last week the House Committee on Un-American Activities purported to report that a two-month investigation had convinced it that General Butler's story of a Fascist march on Washington was alarmingly true." New York Times February 16 1935. p. 1, "Asks Laws To Curb Foreign Agitators; Committee In Report To House Attacks Nazis As The Chief Propagandists In Nation. State Department Acts Checks Activities Of An Italian Consul -- Plan For March On Capital Is Held Proved. Asks Laws To Curb Foreign Agitators, "Plan for “March” Recalled. It also alleged that definite proof had been found that the much publicized Fascist march on Washington, which was to have been led by Major. Gen. Smedley D. Butler, retired, according to testimony at a hearing, was actually contemplated. The committee recalled testimony by General Butler, saying he had testified that Gerald C. MacGuire had tried to persuade him to accept the leadership of a Fascist army."</ref> |
Reason: "refs are not for interpolating large amounts of text - also totally unrelated issues do not belong in the Butler Plot article"[7]
The reason this text was added was as a comprmise with other editors in the past. |
Veterans of Foreign Wars commander James E. Van Zandt. "Less than two months" after General Butler warned him, he said, "he had been approached by ‘agents of Wall Street’ to lead a Fascist dictatorship in the United States under the guise of a ‘Veterans Organization’ ".<ref>Schlesinger, p 85; Wolfe, Part IV: "Says Butler Described. Offer". New York Times: 3. 1934. {{cite journal}}: |first= has generic name (help); |first= missing |last= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) Archer, p.3, 5, 29, 32, 129, 176. </ref>
|
Veterans of Foreign Wars commander James E. Van Zandt. "Less than two months" after General Butler warned him, he said, "he had been approached by ‘agents of Wall Street’ to lead a Fascist dictatorship in the United States under the guise of a ‘Veterans Organization’ ".<ref>Schlesinger, p 85; Wolfe, Part IV: "But James E. Van Zandt, national commander of the Veterans of Foreign Wars and subsequently a Republican congressman, corroborated Butler's story and said that he, too, had been approached by "agents of Wall Street." "Zandt had been called immediately after the August 22 meeting with MacGuire by Butler and warned that...he was going to be approached by the coup plotters for his support at an upcoming VFW convention. He said that, just as Butler had warned, he had been approached "by agents of Wall Street" who tried to enlist him in their plot.""Says Butler Described. Offer". New York Times: 3. 1934. {{cite journal}}: |first= has generic name (help); |first= missing |last= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) Quoted material from the NYTSchmidt, p. 224 But James E. Van Zandt, national commander of the Veterans of Foreign Wars and subsequently a Republican congressman, corroborated Butler's story and said that he, too, had been approached by "agents of Wall Street." Archer, p.3, 5, 29, 32, 129, 176. For more on Van Zandt, and the Archer quotes, see Unknown author. "James Edward Van Zandt". Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade (COAT). Retrieved 2006-03-28. {{cite web}}: |author= has generic name (help)</ref>
|
Reason: "refs are not for interpolating large amounts of text - also totally unrelated issues do not belong in the Butler Plot article"[8]
The reason this text was added was as a comprmise with other editors in the past. |
| Removed | *Captain Samuel Glazier—testifying under oath about plans of a plot to install a dictatorship in the United States.<ref name="sutton" /><ref>[[s:McCormack-Dickstein Committee#Captain Glazier's testimony|Wikisource: McCormack-Dickstein Committee, Captain Glazier's testimony]]</ref>
*Reporter Paul Comly French, reporter for the Philadelphia Record and the New York Evening Post.<ref>[[s:McCormack-Dickstein Committee#TESTIMONY OF PAUL COMLY FRENCH|Wikisource: McCormack-Dickstein Committee, testimony of Paul Comly French]]</ref> |
Reason: "refs are not for interpolating large amounts of text - also totally unrelated issues do not belong in the Butler Plot article"[9]
The reason this text was added was as a comprmise with other editors in the past. |
| Removed |
== Bibliography == *Archer, Jules (1973, pub.2007). The Plot to Seize the White House. Skyhorse Publishing. ISBN 1-60239-036-3. *Schlesinger Jr., Arthur M. (2003). The Politics of Upheaval: 1935-1936, The Age of Roosevelt, Volume III (The Age of Roosevelt). Mariner Books. ISBN 0-618-34087-4. *Schmidt, Hans (1998). Maverick Marine: General Smedley D. Butler and the Contradictions of American Military History. University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 0-8131-0957-4. Excerpts of Schmidt's book dealing with the plot are available online.<ref>[http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/butler03-by_schmidt.html Maverick Marine: Excerpt] at coat.ncf.ca</ref> | |
| Removed | * U.S. House of Representatives, Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities, Hearings 73-D.C.-6, Part 1, 73rd Congress, 2nd session, (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1935). | "refs are not for interpolating large amounts of text - also totally unrelated issues do not belong in the Butler Plot article"[10] |
| Removed |
|
|
| Removed |
|
Ridiculous reason:
WP is not in the business of giving extensive bibliographies - sorry [11] |
| Removed |
=== Related subjects === *Goodman, Walter (1968). The Committee: The Extraordinary Career of the House Committee on Un-American Activities. Farrar Straus & Giroux. ISBN 0-374-12688-7. *Helms, Harry (2003). Inside the Shadow Government: National Emergencies and the Cult of Secrecy. Feral House. ISBN 092291589X. *Higham, Charles (1982). Trading With the Enemy: An Expose of the Nazi-American Money Plot, 1933-1949. Doubleday. ISBN 0385290802. *Hougan, Jim (1978). Spooks: The Haunting of America: The Private Use of Secret Agents. William Morrow & Co. ISBN 0688033555. *Hopsicker, Daniel (2001). Barry & 'the Boys' : The CIA, the Mob and America's Secret History. Mad Cow Press. ISBN 0970659105. *Thomas, Kenn (2003). The Octopus: Secret Government and the Death of Danny Casolaro. Feral House. ISBN 0922915911. *Wolfskill, George (1962). The Revolt of the Conservatives: A History of the American Liberty League 1934-1940. Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-8371-7251-9. *Wolfskill, George John A. Hudson (1969). All but the people: Franklin D. Roosevelt and His Critics, 1933-39. Macmillan. ASIN: B0006BYJJQ. |
Reason: "cites not even related to the topic"[12] |
| Removed |
== Further reading == *Archer, Jules (1973, pub.2007). The Plot to Seize the White House. Skyhorse Publishing. *Extensive list of links, books and video on the plot *[http://store.aetv.com/html/search/index.jhtml?search=The+Plot+to+Overthrow+FDR&itemType=All&x=15&y=10 The History Channel Video: In Search of History: The Plot to Overthrow FDR] "While The Plot To Overthrow FDR will astonish those who never learned about this story in school, in the end many viewers may feel as if they are trying to handcuff a shadow."<ref>Feran, Tim (February 12 1999). "History Channel Looks At Plot to Oust FDR". Columbus Dispatch (Ohio): 1H. |
I am deeply troubled by Collects large misunderstanding of the subject matter based on this edit: "unrelated stuff -- sorry" An article about the Plot to overthrow FDR? Butler's censored testimony? and extensive links about the plot have nothing to do with the Business Plot page? |
(more) Ikip (talk) 10:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
- ^ Schlesinger, p. 85