User:Iain Mac an tSaoir

Iain Mac an tSaoir can be written at enjambment(AT)yahoo(DOT)com

• (The following was removed from the Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism Talk page because it contributes nothing to the discussion. A link has been placed in the text to this page for anyone interested in reading it. What remains there is the essence of this text. --Paul Pigman 04:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC))

• • Contributes nothing? It lays out the specific refutations that Gaelic Traditionalism started out as an offshoot of Celtic Reconstructionism. I understand the truncation for space, but the following is specific details laying out and supporting the refutation of the claim made in the talk page it was originally posted on. Breandán 00:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• • • While this may apply to the talk page, the CR article itself makes no claims about any connection between GT and CR. I considered this a diversion from the main discussion of the CR article. I felt the lengthy section I moved here could be accurately summarized by the sentence from the original text I left on the talk page: "It should be known that at no time did the CnG refer to itself as CR." It was not my intent to cut out Iain's expressed opinion which is why I linked the text to this page. --Paul Pigman 17:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Thank you Paul for that explanation. Iain Mac an tSaoir 00:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)Iain Mac an tSaoir
  • What was removed from the CR article does show some distinct things.
    • It shows that there are several assertions that are false.
      • 1) The first assertion that is false is that GT is a subset of CR.
        • A) Polytheistic GT began as an organized movement a couple of years before CR.
        • B) The one member of the CR movement who gave advise did so not as a member of the Clannada na Gadelica, but simply as friendly cooperation between peoples of different movements and different organizations.
        • C)Something not mentioned below is that Greagoir MacSimmons, who was a Comhairloir from 1995-1998 and Taoiseach of the CnG from Oct 1996 to Oct 1997, also testifies that Erynn was never a member.
        • D)Another thing not mentioned is that one can do a websearch for various Clannada articles, or things written by me, and find where scammed copies are on other peoples websites. Sometimes people date when they added them to their websites. Other times one need only look at the copyright tag. Some artciles such as the "Compilation of Triads", which I began in 1986, took years to compile. On hard copies sold at Pagan gatherings, the copyright date goes back to 1993. The published on the web date found on scammer websites is as far back as 1995. By 1994 the Clannada had more than two dozen articles online, and by 1999 it had over 200. Of special interest here are the copyright dates and what they prove.
      • 2) The second assertion, that GT is a subset of CR, is also shown to be false.
        • A) First because of the origination of GT before CR.
        • B) Because the goals are completely different; CR being a movement started to construct a religious path specifically for Neo-Pagans in general, and GT to bring the traditional polytheistic ways of the Gael, as the culture alone defines those ways, to those who wish to assimilate into traditional Gaelic religion. The Witchvox article on CR, found at: http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usma&c=trads&id=6645 amply demonstrates both the differences between the movements and the time differentials. The article states:
          • "With the founding of the Nemeton-L email list for Celtic Pagans and Druids in 1994, the movement began to coalesce,..."
          • " these people also took inspiration from other cultures to help try to fill in the holes for building ritual and community."
          • "CR makes no claims to being a True and Authentic Survival of any Celtic tradition. We acknowledge fully and openly that what we practice are a set of modern creations, based in and inspired by early Celtic beliefs. We follow our inspiration while remaining as true as we can to the guidelines we find in early texts, the work of scholars and archaeologists, and the practical aspects of what works well for us. CR is a constantly growing and evolving path, seeking learning, mystic and ecstatic experience, and the intense life of the spirit."
          • What is not mentioned is that Imbas, what I believe is the first actual CR organization, did not till long after the CnG. The counter on the bottom of their front page pegs the date at 05/04/96.
      • 3)Since GT strictly adheres to the Gaelic cultural traditions as the Gaelic cultures alone define those;
        • and as, Gaelic Traditionalists work to assimilate themselves into Gaelic culture,
        • then CR to claim GT means that they feel that they can claim the very 2600 year old culture itself. That of course is the very height of hubris.
        • A brief comparison of GT to CR's statements about itself reveals:
          • There was a period of Gaelic Traditionalism is the late 1800's, but polytheistic Gaelic Traditionalism did not begin in earnest until the middle 1980's, with its first public presentation in 1993. That first public presentation was through the Clannada na Gadelica.
          • Gaelic Traditionalism is wholly cultural, and defined wholly by Gaelic culture, using only Gaelic cultural materials as such are defined and understood by Gaelic culture itself.
          • Academically speaking the word "Celt" connotes a distinct set of historical cultures whose most prominent defining aspect is that it speaks a Celtic language. Gaelic is one of those Celtic languages. As Gaelic Traditionalism holds to the Gaelic traditions as the Gaelic culture itself defines them, then we are very much bound to be a true and authentic Celtic tradition. To this day the very front page of the Clannada na Gadelica breaks this down in it's six point mission statement. That can be found at: http://www.clannada.org/
          • Personally speaking. Their movement of material that shows the facts of the matter, while continuing with blatant falsehoods, seems to suggest that they are willing to rewrite factual history. So much for their claims to ethical superiority, though, that claim was always based more on political ideaologies than actual ideas of right from wrong.
          • What I find as sad is that I have a great deal of respect for the original leaders of CR. That respect seemed to be mutual in the early days of the two movements. Dani ni Dighe found the Clannada website and invited me to join into the Nemeton-L list shortly after they had started that mail list. I saw that they were aimming for something different than we, but I came to have a hugh degre of respect for Erynn, Alexei, Dave, Dani and some others. I absolutely hate that there is this degree of animosity between people in the two movements. Now, I have been out of the loop almost completely for the last couple of years, but I cannot fathom what happened to spark this kind of thing. I know there were some hard feelings with us holding the hardline about staying GT, and likewise when an arrangement to let Imbas use Clannada materials at their start went awry, but sheesh that was all resolved years ago. WTF happened? There simply must be a way of getting back to the mutual respect thing.

The following is what was removed from the CR entry:

The very first front page was when it was still a local closed thing only. That dated from 1993 till 1994, and featured a horrible background of the Tennessee mountains. At the very top, under the CnG name, was the phrase, "Gaelic Traditionalist Resource".

The next front page, which went till 1995 used Stewart plaid inserted into frames. There to, at the very top, under the CnG name, was the phrase, "Gaelic Traditionalist Resource".

The next front page from 1995 till 1997 was a basic black, a hokey flickering candle at the top, and some script in light blue text about how the truth could be hidden but never destroyed, and how the CnG was about the truth of the ancestral ways. Again, at the top, under the CnG name, was the phrase, "Gaelic Traditionalist Resource".

Then the whole site went to a standard format, with the blue and black Celtic knot patch over the same design in a light almost watermark grey-white tone back ground. That design lasted till 1999, and at the very top, under the CnG name, was the phrase, "Gaelic Traditionalist Resource".

It then went to the format where there was the thin green line down the left margin of every page. At the very top, under the CnG name, was the phrase, "Gaelic Traditionalist Resource". That design lasted until this year when a real web designer took the reins and made it actually a professionally designed website.

One might also look at the CnG by-laws that were embodied in our Bunreacht. From the start we were mandated by our laws to become ever the more culturally accurate. The consistent thing here is that the CnG was always meant to be a Gaelic Traditionalist organization and website.

When the CnG first went public we were completely unprepared for the onslaughts that came. We were all local and none of us had ever heard of CR, nor did we have any idea that there was another movement at its beginnings as were we. But in short order I found others on a Celtic quest on the internet. I found these others because Dani Ni Dighe found the CnG website and wrote to me, telling me about Nemeton-L mailing list. I joined in list and found that these others were going about it differently than we, and seeking different goals, but I came to respect some of the people there.

Amongst the people for whom I developed a huge degree of respect was of course Alexei, and Dani, but also Erynn. A year or tweo later that respect caused me to ask her for help in solving a couple of things we were experiencing in the CnG.

The first issue dealt with chain of command, and other logistical matters which was causing us no end of difficulties.

The second issue pertained to the constant influx of people who claimed to understand what the CnG was about, but whom once in, began trying to remake us into the CR, and general Neo-Pagan type of thing. There was no end to hard feelings when I would feel forced to go on the soap box and hammer the point about how there was nothing to make up or reconstruct or recreate. Those hard feeling got even more hurt when I would unceremoniously kick people out of the organization, out of the elist, and out of my life. I hated doing it and could not understand why people would come in and try to take us away from our focus on the cultural tradition.

Erynn gave good advice which came to be used. Erynn was not a member of the CnG, she had agreed to be an outside adviser. We recognized her as, an afforded her respect as, an Ard-Filidh, not because she was a Clannadian Ard-Fili, but rather, because she was the highest ranking poet amongst her own people. Because she was from the outside she could see both the forest and the trees, and she gave us great advice. She gave her advice, and then she went about her way to do her thing amongst her people. Her counsel on some logistical matters was implemented to great success. She also told us that the reason why CR folk kept coming was because what we were working for wasn't clerarly enough stated for them to understand. That was like, 1995, I think, though I can look for the email archives from that time if they are needed.

We also took her advice to state our purpose more clearly. We did, with such statements as, "Gaelic Traditionalism is about the cultural traditions as the Gaelic speaking cultures alone define them".

Being more concise, more contrite, more 5 second sound bytish, didn't work either. CR folks still came in and tried to make us a CR organization. Some times they were up front about what they were, sometimes they claimed to be GT until they got into a position where they could excercise a vote. I was almost outvoted once in the council when there was an attempt to change us to also be CR. But the measure failed and I moved to have the responsible people booted. That was just one of the then famous Clannada purges that still had to occur every now and again to keep on the GT track.

I don't believe there was any sort of conspiratorial movement affoot by CR folk to try to sack us. I do believe that our desire to take up the cultural traditions as the Gaelic speaking cultures alone defines those, was and is so vastly different to what most people can conceieve that they just haven't been able to GROK it. They couldn't get it, so they didn't see the differences.

On our end, in the early days, it wasn't so apparent that non-GT folks really weren't getting it, and so there was a lot of morose language and hard feelings on all sides, as they did what they thought was right, and we, trying to keep GT as an unassimilated cultural thing, did what we thought was was right.

The two have never been the same thing.

There are some fine people out there, people who I still love to this day, like Sarah, and Tracey, and Morgan. These are people I still adore, and who at least at one time adored me. But these are people who I shall likely never get to talk to again in this life because we pushed each other into corners - a bad thing to do to any type of Celt. And none of the hurt feelings of those years, the angst that abounded, none of it was necessary.

All that was needed was for each side to understand that each movement arose independently, with different goals in mind. For us the goal is encapsulated in what became a mantra or sorts, "there is nothing to make up - only take up", as we take up the cultural traditions as those traditions are defined by the Gaelic speaking culture.