User:Dreftymac/Docs/ArticleDebates000

Background

This is an excerpt from a discussion where the interested parties are attempting to move forward and overcome a stalemate. My participation with this article was primarily an attempt to see what it was like contributing to a highly controversial article with potentially POV-promoting editors in various "camps". Eventually I concluded that some articles will simply always remain a "battlefield" ... contributors who are highly motivated to enhance the tone, professionalism and neutrality of WP articles may be well-advised to simply stay away from such articles.

Neutrality and "White Person" article

This is an interesting thread on a controversial article. Someone protected the article and started this thread in an attempt to hammer out some form of consensus. This is a noteworthy example of a good faith effort to stop (or at least de-escalate) an ongoing edit war. The article itself is not particularly of interest to me, but note the evolution and mutability.

Request for Comment

White people edit war on the relation of the term to the literal meaning of white prompted protection. In larger discussion, there is debate about whether (1) to describe white as literally inaccurate; (2) skin pigmentation/melanisation might be a better description; (3) the European historical context and/or Eurocentrism should be specified in the text; (4) whether color metaphors for race is an acceptable link. (5) Relevancy of definition of white in physics Lukas19 22:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Original Contentious Text

The term white is a misnomer. Most white people are some kind of brown shade, some may even look pinkish or reddish, but none of them looks literally white. The term is the result of a eurocentric view of race. (posted by LSLM)

Discussion so far

See Talk:White people#Protection. Also see Talk:White_people#Literal_White

Proposed text

To facilitate discussion, I compiled 5 options from the discussion. Lukas has added a sixth.--Carwil 18:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The term white people is not a literal description as it is used regardless of the fact that nearly all the people described are pinkish, reddish, tan or brown in skin color, extending the perception of white skin to a much broader set of people. In the phrase white people it functions as a color metaphor for race, one that emerged from a racialized, European historical context.
White people are not literally white, but they all have a significant depigmentation of their skin. In some regions White people have a near complete depigmentation, whereas in other regions, White people may have a small degree of pigmentation. The degree of melanisation is not a purely inherited trait, the amount of pigmentation can vary due to exposure to sunlight, age and sex. Indeed the amount of pigmentation may vary on an individual, especially extremities that may get more exposure to sunlight may have a darker more brown hue than those regions that are covered such as the torso. The term extends the perception of white skin to a much broader set of people. In the phrase white people it functions as a color metaphor for race, one that emerged from a racialized, European historical context.
The term white people does not refer perceived color of skin per se; the people described can be pinkish, reddish, white, tan or brown in skin color, extending the perception of white skin to a much broader set of people. In the phrase white people it functions as a color metaphor for race, one that emerged from a racialized, European historical context.
1. The term white people primarily describes a relative degree of depigmentation, and is not a literal description of skin tone. The term is also applied by some as a social construct to imply European ancestry or culture.
2. The term has been discredited by some as being scientifically unsubstantiated or based on an invidious and antiquated classification of human beings based on race.
The term white people does not refer perceived color of skin per se; the people described can be pinkish, reddish, white, tan or brown in skin color, extending the perception of white skin to a much broader set of people.
No reference to misconceptions, extensions, or European context/Eurocentrism.
With the exception of albinos, people with lightest skin color are those who are of predominantly European descent (see the map). Therefore, the word white is used more as a comparison to darker shades of skin tone. The usage of term is also affected by eurocentric view of race.
The term white or white race is in err and quite incorrect, and by all means should not be used as a category or subcategory of any race of ethnicity of any peoples in the world. (added by Margrave1206) -- futurebird 01:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

VOTES:

I vote for number 1. Veritas et Severitas 19:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I vote for number 7. --Margrave1206 01:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This is an RfC, it is not a vote. We should discuss the relative merits of esch suggestion, and come to a compromise wording through consensus. We could have a vote I suppose if no consensus were reached. Alun 19:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The term is the result of a eurocentric view of race. This sentence should stay in. ~~If not number 3~~ 7 works best. All one needs do is look at old categories for example "white" vs. "colored" --or the way "ethnic" once referred to anything non-white (that misguided idea that white people have no ethnicity and that, once no longer ethni,c European immigrants to the US "became white") to see why a mention of the historical context is need. I was not here for the whole debate, so forgive me if I'm rehashing old points. White implies a "default" color, this has a lot to do with the eurocentric view of race. The term is the result of a eurocentric view of race. should stay. -- futurebird 22:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC) edited by futurebird 01:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality: As an editor who recently took some effort to reform the lead section to be as encyclopedic and professional sounding as possible, (such as starting the article with the dictionary definition, unifying obviously separate contributions, reducing the 'self-argumentation', etc.) all of the above contain some unacceptable 'editorializing.' It should not be possible to read a contribution, and be able to easily guess what "camp" the author is in. That's unencyclopedic and unprofessional.

Number 3 is the closest to a workable text (modified, however by 3.1 below) because it clarifies the dictionary definition, which already includes Europe and skin-tone. Well-researched dictionaries take great pains to produce definitions that are consistent and professional, as discussed previously. Good luck with trying to keep this article "neutral". dr.ef.tymac 03:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with 3.1 too. Other proposed introductions aren't as concise or neutral. The other introductions which further add the fact that whites can get tans are so obvious that they seem to be unnecessary. Some of the definitions should not be used because they give the impression that even the concept of white people is somehow wrong when they describe it as "Eurocentric".--^DarkTea 08:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Eurocentric is not bad, it is a fact, and you can clearly infer it from the history section.

2. That the term "white" is a misnomer is as clear a water and should be clarified. People who are called white can look many different colors, but never white, unless you can find people who look like this in their faces, hands and body:

http://www.kabuki.ne.jp/mitsugoro/images/main_image.jpg

So, it is true that this is an Encyclopeadia, the place to uncover superstition and ignorance and to analyze it, not to perpetuate it.

So, I support number 1 and the original number 3, without the reference to white, since there are no white people in terms of color. On the other hand, since white refers to a color and color seems to have been very important in this discussion most of the time, I see no reason why we should not speak of the real colors of so-called white people.

I think we have now two votes for number 3, if we omit "white".. Veritas et Severitas 14:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

And two for #7, as is.futurebird 14:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I also would support the idea in number 7, but it should be obviously better elaborated, so I would propose to merge 7 and 3. Still we may risk getting off the subject. That idea can be clearly incorporated in other parts of the article. Veritas et Severitas 14:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Strong Oppose 7 based solely on wording: Ignoring for the moment the factual propriety of 7, the current wording simply sounds entirely didactic and unencyclopedic. For example, what is the justification for "should not be used"? Moral? Ethical? Scientific? Grammatical? Philosophical? Social? Public safety? Civility? To put that wording, uncited, into the intro would diminish the credibility of this article. At the very least it needs to be reworded for tone. dr.ef.tymac 16:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I could think of ethical, moral and historical. The term is the result of a strong racialist if not racist tradition by people of European ancestry and it is strongly abused by fascist movements following that tradition. Still I think that it is covered in the article, though the idea could be reinforced. Right now we may risk getting off the subject. So as said, I support original 3 without white. Veritas et Severitas 16:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Follow-up: Ok, makes sense, for an example of a possible rewording to include concepts from 7, see 3.2 above, which could be a sentence immediately following 3.1. Mea culpa if I misrepresented the point that was being made in 7, but you helped to clarify it a bit. dr.ef.tymac 16:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I think your wording is perfect and I would support adding it to the original 3, without white. I would just add something like "supposed races" instead of "race". Veritas et Severitas 16:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)