User:BirgitteSB/Talk:Ahmed Adnan Muhammad Ajam

revert poorly explained edit -- see talk

I reverted this edit.

WRT to "double-wide"...

Two trailers have been used. The following five images are of the original trailer, the one in the image in this article.

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  Image:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held.jpg
• 
  Image:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 1.jpg
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  Image:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 2.jpg
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  Image:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 3.jpg

If you look at the full resolution image of Image:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 1.jpg you can see there is a rubber bumper on the rear wall to prevent the door handle slamming into the wood paneling. A standard door is 30 inches wide. That door bumper is one quarter of the way across the rear wall. That would make this trailer about ten feet wide. Mobile home says:

Single-wides are eighteen feet or less in width and 90 feet or less in length and can be towed to their site as a single unit. Double-wides are twenty feet or more wide...

Note: this reference says:

"Eventually, I was led into the tribunal room where a hearing was about to start. It was a small space, only about 8ft wide and 15ft long...

The space between the two doors is wide enough, or just about wide enough, to fit five chairs. The trailer seems to extend about five feet beyond the door at the front of the trailer. Ie. about 10 x 20 feets, 3 x 6 metres.

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  Image:ARB trailer.jpg
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  Image:Administrative Review Board hearing room.jpg

The larger trailer is the one used for the ARB hearings, and for some of the later CSR Tribunals. I suggest this would have been the "double-wide" trailer. Geo Swan (talk) 22:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this a joke?

The main issue is not whether this is a double-wide or rv-sized trailer. That is silly. "The captive sat on a plastic garden chair, with his hands and feet shackled to a bolt in the floor" - this is the issue - this quote is used to describe one detainee as is referenced in the sources. The detainee it describes IS NOT the detainee in this article. It is factually incorrect to state otherwise. Lovely pictures, though. BWH76 (talk) 23:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd use "captives" to imply it's not specific to the one in the article, and I'm not sure of the phrase "plastic garden chair", is there a wiki article for whatever the proper name is? I believe they were also shackled to a ring, not a bolt, weren't they? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The entire thing relates to one specific detainee- "with his hands and feet shackled to a bolt in the floor" - this relates to the one detainee referenced in the article. NOT all detainees.

But while we're at it, why don't we read the source that is referenced about the size of the trailers instead of relying upon WP:OR? The first sentence reads: "Each day, several shackled detainees are marched by their military guards into a double-wide trailer behind the prison camp's fences and razor wire to argue before three anonymous military officers that they do not belong here." (emphasis mine) BWH76 (talk) 23:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Reading the article, it does seem like though the one Kuwaiti was shackled to the floor, it's reasonable to assume that not all detainees were similarly shackled, depending on whether they were in Delta, Echo, orange/white, compliant/not, etcetera. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The rules required all captives to be shackled to the floor. You can see the bolt in the pictures. The rules required all captives to remain cuffed. Geo Swan (talk) 07:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Kathleen T. Rhem (August 29, 2004). "Reporters Offered Look Inside Combatant Status Review Tribunals". American Forces Press Service. Retrieved 2008-03-01. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Following is a description of an actual hearing as observed by a reporter visiting Guantanamo. The tribunal described here happened on Aug. 25 and was the 36th that has occurred. The detainee was already in the room when the panel members entered. He showed little emotion and made few movements. The man had a long, dark beard, close- cropped hair and wore a black crocheted skullcap. He wore a bright orange short-sleeved shirt and pants that resembled hospital scrubs. He was handcuffed and wore leg irons. The leg manacles were secured to a ring in the floor with a padlock.

I direct your attention to page 1

	While the Tribunal President explained the Convening order to the Detainee, the Detainee stated he 'wanted his hands released.
Tribunal President:	That is not within our power to do that.
Detainee:	There is a difference between the law and being brutal.
Tribunal President:	We are here to only discuss your enemy combatant status and the handcuffs will stay on.

I direct your attention to page 3

Detainee:	Can I take these cuffs off?
Tribunal President:	The cuffs have to stay on.
Detainee:	I can't read without my glasses, I need my hand to get the paper. These cuffs are for criminals, and I am not a criminal.
Tribunal President:	Unfortunately 'we have no leeway with that, and you are required to have them on.

I direct your attention to page 46

Detainee:	Is it time for someone to loosen my handcuffs a little bit?
Tribunal President:	We have spoken to the guards, and the handcuffs are per the SOP, so they will remain as they are.
Detainee:	It's OK to be tied up, but they are amazingly tight and making marks on my arm.
Tribunal President:	Try moving them down your wrist a little bit, that would probably help.
Detainee:	It hurts a lot
	At this time, the Tribunal President paused the Tribunal briefly to allow the guards to loosen the handcuffs for the Detainee.

I direct your attention to page 15

	When asked by the Tribunal President if the detainee had any questions concerning the Tribunal process, the Detainee answered:
	Please forgive me for asking but I have seen courts all over the world and 'I have never seen one were there are handcuffs
Tribunal President:	I understand If you have questions about this Tribunal at anytime, please ask.
Detainee:	Is this an American Tribunal or an International Tribunal?
Tribunal President:	This is an American Tribunal
Detainee:	This is the first time I have been in front of a Tribunal, maybe you know if you can keep the handcuffs during the Tribunal?
Tribunal President:	This is a military administrative process. Tt is not a civil judge court process.
Detainee:	I asked this question for myself to understand if American courts use handcuffs.
Tribunal President:	This is a military process and procedure that we are following for everyone. That is our system here today.

I direct your attention to page 20

If it is possible can you please turn down the air conditioner? How come I am not comfortable sitting right here? It is a little bit chilly and I am still handcuffed. This is too tight on my hands. I cannot be comfortable like this. The handcuffs are cutting into my hands.

I direct your attention to pages 3-4

Tribunal President:	We will have an opportunity to ask you questions after we go through the Unclassified Summary. Ahmad, let me just ask you one question. Are your cuffs on too tight?
Detainee:	Yes.
Tribunal President:	Let's take a brief recess to allow the guards to come in and loosen the cuffs on him. Personal Representative, please track where we are on the Unclassified Summary.

I direct your attention to page 22

The cuffs are on my hands and I don't have freedom to move my hands (Detainee dropped his paperwork). That's what you are saying that I should have cuffs on, so I guess I'm going to have to stay with the cuffs on.

WRT "doube-wide" -- I asked you to read the financial times article more closely. The journalist who was present estimated the trailer was 8 feet by fifteen feet. Double wide trailers are at least 20 feet wide.

Please remember WP:NOT#wikipedia is not a battleground. Geo Swan (talk) 05:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)