User:Bduke/Sandbox2

Some new suggestions for the lead

Following the discussion above on this article, I would like to make some proposals. I think this article should be about the Scout section and its members, just as the articles on Cubs and Rovers are. Note I stress members, because this allows us to deal with all boy situations and combined boy and girl situations in a reasonable and NPOV way. There has been an attempt to focus it on being about the boy, but it is actually only about members of the Scout section, not Cubs, Explorers, Rovers, etc. I think that focus on the boy is unworkable. That leads to an unequal description of sections like the Scout section in the BSA which is all boys and the sections in the UK and Australia, which have been fully integrated boys and girls for a long time, and those in Europe which are mixed boy and girl, but I know less about them. That focus will cause division and difficulties.

The problems, I think, are almost entirely in the lead which currently is:-

"A Boy Scout is a boy, usually 11 to 17 years of age, participating in the worldwide Scouting movement. This movement began in 1907, when Lt. General Robert Baden-Powell held the first Scout camp on Brownsea Island, South England. To advance his ideas, Baden-Powell wrote the book, Scouting for Boys, which targeted boy readership, and described the Scout method of using outdoor activities to develop character,citizenship, and personal fitness qualities among youth.

Boy Scouts are organized into troops averaging twenty to thirty Scouts under guidance of a Scout leader. Troops subdivide into patrols of about six Scouts and engage in outdoor and special interest activities. Troops may affiliate with national and international organizations. Some national Scouting associations have special interest programs such as Air Scouts, Sea Scouts, outdoor high adventure, Scouting bands and rider scouts. Some troops, especially in Europe, have been co-educational since the 1970s, allowing boys and girls to work together as Scouts."

I would like to see this article take over the Scouts title and read something like this:-

"Scouts, called Boy Scouts in some countries, are members of the original section of the worldwide Scouting movement. This movement began in 1907, when Lt. General Robert Baden-Powell held the first Scout camp on Brownsea Island, South England. To advance his ideas, Baden-Powell wrote the book, Scouting for Boys, which targeted boy readership, and described the Scout method of using outdoor activities to develop character, citizenship, and personal fitness qualities among youth. The original age range was 11 - 17 and this is still used in some countries, while others have split the age range with Scouts being 11 - 14 or 15 and the older members being in a new section called "Senior Scouts" or [[Venture Scout]s] or Explorer Scouts. While the section was originally open only to boys, in many countries, from 1970 onwards, it now contains boys and girls working together.

Scouts are organized into troops averaging twenty to thirty Scouts under guidance of a Scout leader. Troops subdivide into patrols of about six Scouts and engage in outdoor and special interest activities. Troops may affiliate with national and international organizations. Some national Scouting associations have special interest programs such as Air Scouts, Sea Scouts, outdoor high adventure, Scouting bands and riderscouts."

The changes are not great. The rest of the article probably needs little change, if any. It is all about the activities of Scouts. Countries that have admitted girls to the Scout program have found no need to change the activities.

While that is my prefered option, I think we could live with leaving the name as Boy Scout for a while while we discuss it further and start if off with:-

"Boy Scouts, called simply Scouts in some countries, are members of the original section of the worldwide Scouting movement." Then as above.

The diambiguation lines at the top probably only need to say:-

"For Scouts who are in organizations affiliated to WAGGGS see: Girl Guide and Girl Scout".

Note that Girl Guide and Girl Scout needs some changes too, but let us look at them one at a time. I have hesitated making any of these changes because we need consensus. I do however suggest that if you do not like them and want to maintain a focus on the boy, the onus really is on you to explain how you can deal with those who think that girls are and should be equal in Scouting and how you can avoid this article being continually a divisive place in the heart of our Scouting articles. This article is currently very divisive. My ideas are only a start, although I have thought about them long and hard. Please let us have your views here. --Bduke 10:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

A better line: "For Scouts who are in organizations only affiliated to WAGGGS see: Girl Guide and Girl Scout".

I think:

• The scope of the "Boy Scout/Scouts" article should be:
  • Boy Scouts in WOSM members and Non-aligned Scouting,
  • boy/girl Scouts and (Girl) Guides in co-ed sections in WOSM, WOSM/WAGGGS members and Non-aligned Scouting.

• The scope of the "Girl Guide and Girl Scout" article should be:
  • Girl/girl/boy Scouts and (Girl) Guides in WAGGGS members,
  • (Girl) Guides in girl only sections in WOSM/WAGGGS members and Non-aligned Scouting.

--Egel _Reaction? 18:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I like Bduke's suggestion a lot, it seems to me to be a balanced and appropriate amendment. DuncanHill 20:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)