Template talk:United States federal service academies
Military Academy vs. West Point
[edit]- this should be titled Military Academy, since that's it's full name (in the same way as Naval Academy, Air Force Academy, Coast Guard Academy, or Merchant Marine Academy. None of these have "the" in front of them, and grammatically it is the same.Garuda28 (talk) 12:53, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Full agreement. The format for this list is Offical name(unofficial name). USMA's short name without the U.S. is Military Academy, just like USNA's short name for this is Naval Academy, followed by its unofficial name Annapolis. USMA has no grammatical differences at all. 65.152.162.3 (talk) 13:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- There is grammatical difference. This country only has one Naval and Air Force academy, but there are so many "Military Academy" in the U.S. Also, in feature article United States Military Academy it says "The United States Military Academy (USMA), also known as West Point, Army, The Academy, or simply The Point", which does not have the abbreviation "Military Academy" you provided. It is your original research, which is not allowed base on WP:No orginal research rule. Unless you provided a reliable source that uses "Military Academy" without "the". Btw it is funny to see you talking to yourself. I bet you do not know user IP can be checked on Wikipedia.--Šolon (talk) 13:47, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- its an abbreviated name, not original research. There is only one federal service academy designated the Military Academy, which is its proper name, not West Point. All other Academies are not designated military academies, but U.S. Service Academies.Thus is just taking the U.S. out of the name, as it is for the rest of the Academies. As for the IP address this is an open network on the college where I am, it's not me talking to me, I don't do that stuff. I've even been reverted by that account before, we probably just share very similar interests and follow the same topics (which considering this school I'm not surprised in the least by). Garuda28 (talk) 15:12, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- You cannot see what IP address a registered user is editing from without special privileges. Anyway, I have a question: why is United States Air Force Academy spelled out in full if the others are going to be abbreviated? The others having a nickname (their location) doesn't seem to justify this variation. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Probaby a mistake, fixed that (considering that it's not a topic of contention). Thank you for pointing it out. As for the nickname USAFA doesn't have one, but the others do, hence why they're listed (they are commonly referred to by their location as their nickname, but USAFA is never referred to as Colorado Springs). As for the IP, I know that the IP above is one that I use, but it's a college campus, and I have the integrity not to make those kinds of edits. Are you saying that this individual is just accusing me of doing so without any evidence to back it up whatsoever? Garuda28 (talk) 18:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, they have no (legitimate) way of knowing that. Maybe it was a good inference based on the geographical location of the IP or its edit history... —DIYeditor (talk) 18:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Always possible, I see it pop up on a lot of my talks and looking though the edit history there's commonality (military focus, which would explain the talk pages). Either way, not me, so I'm not concerned. Now that we have that mess out of the way what's your opinion on the topic being discussed at hand? Garuda28 (talk) 18:24, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Given the space available I think as they are currently abbreviated is appropriate. I don't think it's original research, it's a matter of organizing links in a template. The "United States" is right above, and in the link itself. —DIYeditor (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Anyone can challenge the content if you don't have a solid reference. I promise I will back it up, if you show me one. Also, like what I mentioned previously. It is not a common abbreviation and can confuse people.--Šolon (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Considering that there's a link to military academy at the bottom of the template I don't think it will confuse anyone - especially since it's about federal service academies and the proper name is the Military Academy. The issue is not the source it seems, but grammar, as the "the" is omitted. Just as I wouldn't say Air Force Academy without the "the", or Naval Academy without the "the" in a sentence, the same rules apply for them, so your going to have to address those if you want to make the change for one. It's just an abbreviated way of saying the name of the Academy, since West Point isn't the proper name, but United States Military Academy is. "Military Academy (West Point) includes both the formal and informal name, and as such there is no confusion. Garuda28 (talk) 20:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Again, without a proper source supporting what you are saying, anyone can challenge it. It is not about where the article links to. I am clearly being constructive. You are the one that insists to use your original research. Therefore, I am just cleaning up the inaccurate information based on the policy. It is clearly not an edit war.--Šolon (talk) 22:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, you can challenge it, and have every right to. What you do not have a right to do is revert 4 times and insist that it is original research when it is clearly stated that it is short for [U.S.] Military Academy. By definition you are going against consensus and are engaged in an edit war.Garuda28 (talk) 22:49, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- I have reverted my own edit for further discussion.--Šolon (talk) 02:53, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- (https://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/virtual_disk_library/index.cgi/5343022/FID2740/Pdf%20Files/5uscch51.pdf) See Title 5, Chapter 51, Section 5102(c)(10), 5th line down, 3rd word from the left "... civilian professors, lecturers, and instructors at the Military Academy, the Naval Academy, and the Air Force Academy whose pay is fixed under sections 4338..." Garuda28 (talk) 03:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- I have reverted my own edit for further discussion.--Šolon (talk) 02:53, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, you can challenge it, and have every right to. What you do not have a right to do is revert 4 times and insist that it is original research when it is clearly stated that it is short for [U.S.] Military Academy. By definition you are going against consensus and are engaged in an edit war.Garuda28 (talk) 22:49, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Again, without a proper source supporting what you are saying, anyone can challenge it. It is not about where the article links to. I am clearly being constructive. You are the one that insists to use your original research. Therefore, I am just cleaning up the inaccurate information based on the policy. It is clearly not an edit war.--Šolon (talk) 22:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Considering that there's a link to military academy at the bottom of the template I don't think it will confuse anyone - especially since it's about federal service academies and the proper name is the Military Academy. The issue is not the source it seems, but grammar, as the "the" is omitted. Just as I wouldn't say Air Force Academy without the "the", or Naval Academy without the "the" in a sentence, the same rules apply for them, so your going to have to address those if you want to make the change for one. It's just an abbreviated way of saying the name of the Academy, since West Point isn't the proper name, but United States Military Academy is. "Military Academy (West Point) includes both the formal and informal name, and as such there is no confusion. Garuda28 (talk) 20:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Anyone can challenge the content if you don't have a solid reference. I promise I will back it up, if you show me one. Also, like what I mentioned previously. It is not a common abbreviation and can confuse people.--Šolon (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Given the space available I think as they are currently abbreviated is appropriate. I don't think it's original research, it's a matter of organizing links in a template. The "United States" is right above, and in the link itself. —DIYeditor (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Always possible, I see it pop up on a lot of my talks and looking though the edit history there's commonality (military focus, which would explain the talk pages). Either way, not me, so I'm not concerned. Now that we have that mess out of the way what's your opinion on the topic being discussed at hand? Garuda28 (talk) 18:24, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, they have no (legitimate) way of knowing that. Maybe it was a good inference based on the geographical location of the IP or its edit history... —DIYeditor (talk) 18:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Probaby a mistake, fixed that (considering that it's not a topic of contention). Thank you for pointing it out. As for the nickname USAFA doesn't have one, but the others do, hence why they're listed (they are commonly referred to by their location as their nickname, but USAFA is never referred to as Colorado Springs). As for the IP, I know that the IP above is one that I use, but it's a college campus, and I have the integrity not to make those kinds of edits. Are you saying that this individual is just accusing me of doing so without any evidence to back it up whatsoever? Garuda28 (talk) 18:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- You cannot see what IP address a registered user is editing from without special privileges. Anyway, I have a question: why is United States Air Force Academy spelled out in full if the others are going to be abbreviated? The others having a nickname (their location) doesn't seem to justify this variation. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- its an abbreviated name, not original research. There is only one federal service academy designated the Military Academy, which is its proper name, not West Point. All other Academies are not designated military academies, but U.S. Service Academies.Thus is just taking the U.S. out of the name, as it is for the rest of the Academies. As for the IP address this is an open network on the college where I am, it's not me talking to me, I don't do that stuff. I've even been reverted by that account before, we probably just share very similar interests and follow the same topics (which considering this school I'm not surprised in the least by). Garuda28 (talk) 15:12, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- There is grammatical difference. This country only has one Naval and Air Force academy, but there are so many "Military Academy" in the U.S. Also, in feature article United States Military Academy it says "The United States Military Academy (USMA), also known as West Point, Army, The Academy, or simply The Point", which does not have the abbreviation "Military Academy" you provided. It is your original research, which is not allowed base on WP:No orginal research rule. Unless you provided a reliable source that uses "Military Academy" without "the". Btw it is funny to see you talking to yourself. I bet you do not know user IP can be checked on Wikipedia.--Šolon (talk) 13:47, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Full agreement. The format for this list is Offical name(unofficial name). USMA's short name without the U.S. is Military Academy, just like USNA's short name for this is Naval Academy, followed by its unofficial name Annapolis. USMA has no grammatical differences at all. 65.152.162.3 (talk) 13:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Simple google search turns up many instances of referring to West Point as "the Military Academy". Not to mention a "faculty manual" [1] from westpoint.edu on page two: "This philosophy is best summarized in the Military Academy’s mission statement:" Regardless of whether this is a common "name" of West Point it is a correct way to refer to it. —DIYeditor (talk) 03:37, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- Precisely, and this current method does justice to both, preventing any misunderstanding while at the same time maintaining continuity with the main article.Garuda28 (talk) 03:39, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Ok. There you go! This is what I am asking for.--Šolon (talk) 03:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- Suggest you adding "the Military Academy" at the beginning of United States Military Academy article.--Šolon (talk) 03:52, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think "the Military Academy" has to be so common that it needs to be mentioned in the lead of USMA in order for it to be appropriate to use in this template. It is kind of an obvious English language thing regardless of how much it is used. But we can see that even official documents use this term where useful, capitalized in this manner. —DIYeditor (talk) 04:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- They even had "The Academy" there, which is surely less used than "The Military Academy".--Šolon (talk) 15:21, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think "the Military Academy" has to be so common that it needs to be mentioned in the lead of USMA in order for it to be appropriate to use in this template. It is kind of an obvious English language thing regardless of how much it is used. But we can see that even official documents use this term where useful, capitalized in this manner. —DIYeditor (talk) 04:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)